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Author Topic: I need foundation help and opinions.  (Read 10991 times)

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Offline Thackery

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I need foundation help and opinions.
« on: July 26, 2009, 06:33:01 pm »
I'll try to post some pictures later,  but here is my story.  First off I am not a timberframer by any means,  just I guy with an old barn.   
I have been working on my timberframe bank barn for a couple of years. 
I have made slow but what I thought was some progress.

The barn had rot in a few places and also had some foundation problems so I have replaced timbers and poured concrete footer/columns to replace the "big rock" that was considered to be the old foundation.
I could tell that the entire frame had moved away from the bank wall, but did not appear to be very much, and had not changed for several years so I concerned myself with the other repairs first.

I have worked my way around to repairing the foundation on the side parallel to the bank.
The frame is obviously not plumb on this foundation and the rock foundation is crumbling apart.

I had intentions of supporting each of the three columns individually and replacing the foundation with a concrete column starting from the frost line, etc.   However,   now I am feeling that this may be the wrong direction.
I am worried that I will not be able to plumb the column,   doing the work may weaken things increasing the possiblity of the frame moving, etc.

In a nutshell I am in over my head and getting a bit worried.
Thackery

Offline Jim_Rogers

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Re: I need foundation help and opinions.
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2009, 08:49:45 am »
It's tough to say without seeing the entire project, but I would think that one of the first things you should consider is immediate stabilization. And what I mean by that is to block up the barn's floor support system to prevent it from shifting by the failing foundation falling apart.

You may need to create several cribbing towers in the basement area to hold everything up while the foundation is repaired:



The way these guys do cribbing blocks is the cribbing is 6"x7"x 4' and they stack them the 7" tall way.

Then when they need to jack someplace up they can insert several blocks into the stack to rest the short jack on by sliding the blocks in with the 6" face up. Like this:



And to insure your frame doesn't rack out of plumb any more you may need to add some cross bracing. Like this:



But your case maybe different if you still have siding on your barn.

Good luck with your project.

Jim Rogers

Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
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Offline Rooster

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Re: I need foundation help and opinions.
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2009, 12:06:44 pm »
Hey,

I found a link to a list of barn contractors in Ohio.

http://www.thebarnjournal.org/resource/contractors.html#Ohio

Good Luck.

Rooster
"We talk about creating millions of "shovel ready" jobs, for a society that doesn't really encourage anybody to pick up a shovel." 
Mike Rowe

"Old barns are a reminder of when I was young,
       and new barns are a reminder that I am not so young."
                          Rooster

Offline Thackery

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Re: I need foundation help and opinions.
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2009, 02:11:04 pm »
Thanks for the replys,   I have added some bracing,   and added two tension cables on the racked bents.
Luckily my barn is not racked like the one you pictured Jim,   good grief,   I would not have the guts to save one that far gone. 
I understand the bacing and cribbing.  I'm working on a step by step path to follow.

Keep the info coming.

I will also check out the Ohio contractor link.
As of now I only know two barn repair guys in our area.   Sadly to say they both have very dubious reputations and I have seen the work of one of them.   What I saw made me set out to do the work myself.

Thanks from cool July Ohio.

Thackery

Offline Thackery

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Re: I need foundation help and opinions.
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2009, 04:42:57 pm »
I have been considering options over the weekend and want to see what you all think of this.
I'll try and post a picture so that this explanation is not so difficult.
The lower frost wall of my bank barn is falling apart.   The barn has shifted some and the lower bents are racked a little.
I would like to replace the frost wall in some way so that the barn has better more permanent support.
Jim you suggested cribbing, etc.   That all sounds good but I would have to buy cribbing etc.
I think another option would be to build another column and beam structure which would mimic the one that sits on the frost wall.  Since the 2nd floor cantilevers out about 6 feet I could place it anywhere in that 6 feet.
This would also let me put in a decent foundation of poured concrete,  build from new wood a column, beam, braces etc.
This could all be done without lifting the barn, except fot the last shimmed bit.
The old section could then be worked on and cleaned up but would not be loaded as it is now. I would not remove the old.


Let me know what you think,  I know that it is only in storming stage and not yet a plan.
Hopefully I posted the picture correctly,  not sure if I used the correct photo host.
Thanks,    Thackery

(Moderator note: I'm sorry but offsite pictures are not allowed. You must upload them to the Forestry Forum site and have the hosted from here. I have removed the active link tag, but if someone wants to see the photos they can copy the address to their browser.)
img width=500 height=375]http://photos.cubfest.com/albums/userpics/10778/normal_7_28_09_walk_around_the_barn_007.JPG[/img]
img width=500 height=375]http://photos.cubfest.com/albums/userpics/10778/normal_7_28_09_walk_around_the_barn_008.JPG[/img]
img width=480 height=640]http://photos.cubfest.com/albums/userpics/10778/normal_7_28_09_walk_around_the_barn_019.JPG[/img]

Offline beenthere

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Re: I need foundation help and opinions.
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2009, 06:34:49 pm »
Thackery
Use the java uploader under the message reply window. That will put your pics in your gallery.

Click on it and if the stars are aligned, your pics will be up.

Thanks for the barn pics from wherever they came from (but doubt they will stay up  :) )

Looks like a great project. If a frost wall/ foundation wall under the barn wall is what you want, should work great. Just so you don't get the barn in your lap while working on it.
south central Wisconsin
 It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Offline Thackery

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Re: I need foundation help and opinions.
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2009, 10:15:15 am »
Here is another try with the pictures within the correct server.  Sorry about that I already use a host server for another forum.







Offline Jim_Rogers

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Re: I need foundation help and opinions.
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2009, 12:10:58 pm »
Thank you for posting your pictures correctly.

As far as setting up another support wall, this may work if your barn frame will be properly supported out there beyond the normal wall location. But beware of sag of the existing frame when you take the weight off the normal location. Have all your correct elevations noted on your plans so that you can set the entire frame up on a level stance.

You may need to find the "high point" and plan on raising everything to that point and making every load point you raise level to this "high point".

One way to be sure the frame is level is to use either the top of the wall plate or the top of the tie beams as a leveling point. And make sure each load support point is so many feet and inches down from this location.

Usually when barns shift or move it is because of foundation problems or rot at the sills and post bottoms. Because of this you can't always rely on these areas for getting accurate measurements. They taught us at a workshop to measure a frame at the plate and at the tie to get the overall dimensions. And to bring those dimensions down to the sill level.

Hope that helps.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Offline Thackery

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Re: I need foundation help and opinions.
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2009, 12:28:39 pm »
I have seen where trying to find a reference point is difficult.   You are right,   you look around a say, wow what has not moved and what has.  I used a laser transit to check all the sleeper joists (the 2nd floor) to see how far out they are.
Interestingly I only found 2" max difference,  most of that being at one corner.
I don't think I would actually remove the frame portion with the bad foundation.
I think I would add a frame foundation and all and then rework the original leaving most of it intact.   I think this would avoid sag of the joists and everything above.
My biggest wish to go with this is because I will not be encountering any real support issues until I actually install the shims between the cement columns (foundation) and the new frame.
At least this is how I have replaced the other foundations and columns.
Measure and plan.
Create as much as possible ahead of time.
Support (I have only needed to support one column area at time)
Remove old column.
Work my butt off to remove old foundation, dig new.
Insert column. and support upward.
Form and pour concrete,  wait 48-72 hours to harden.
Remove support while shimming to correct height. Typically I leave a couple of inches between the cement and column for shim material.

Is it just me or does this forum try to keep you from making long posts.   The posting window will not scroll down with me if I go beyond about 15 lines.

Thanks Thackery.


Offline Jim_Rogers

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Re: I need foundation help and opinions.
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2009, 12:33:25 pm »
Must be your browser settings or something as I can post beyond 15.....


















20

Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Offline beenthere

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Re: I need foundation help and opinions.
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2009, 12:54:21 pm »
........
Is it just me or does this forum try to keep you from making long posts.   The posting window will not scroll down with me if I go beyond about 15 lines.


Not just you. Several of us have been having that problem. I think it is some recent update that was loaded onto my computer, as it happens at one other site as well. But for sure I don't know, however it is aggravating.
south central Wisconsin
 It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Offline Thackery

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Re: I need foundation help and opinions.
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2009, 01:47:03 pm »
To create this new frame I will have to use two pieces to make up the new top plate.  36'
I have seen differing opinions on where the scarf should lie.
Should I put it directly over the center column or over center column brace?

I plan to add braces in every direction on all three columns.

Thanks,
Thackery

Offline Jim_Rogers

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Re: I need foundation help and opinions.
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2009, 02:08:22 pm »
The scarf should not be over a post, but beside it.

Read this thread:
http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,6586.0.html

and:

http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,17350.0.html

The second link has the story I wanted you to read....

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Offline Thackery

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Re: I need foundation help and opinions.
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2009, 02:30:07 pm »
Thanks Jim,   that is the stuff I am talking about.  I knew I had seen it being kicked around before.
I'll read back through it.

Thackery