Author Topic: A couple trees to ID (Read 1986 times)

Cope · « **on:** May 30, 2009, 08:14:03 pm »

Here are two trees that I need some help to identify. Here is the first one:

Here is the second tree:

I can provide more pictures if needed. This is my first time posting pictures here. Maybe I need to change some kind of setting on my camera so that I don't have to make them so small inorder to meet the 45kb limit.

DanG · « **Reply #1 on:** May 31, 2009, 08:07:19 am »

Hi Cope. Welcome to the Forum.

The pics are fine, but it does help to reduce the size in the camera a bit. Just makes it a little easier to get them down to size.

Don't know what your trees are. It might help the experts narrow it down if they know where you're located.

Cope · « **Reply #2 on:** May 31, 2009, 09:26:37 am »

Oh, I forgot to put the location. Sorry about that, I'm sure it would help. These trees are in WV.

DanG · « **Reply #3 on:** May 31, 2009, 09:35:57 am »

The hilly part?

Sorry, I just couldn't resist that.

Your first pic made me think of Dogwood. It has been so long since I took a close-up look at one, I can't remember exactly what the leaves look like. I have a Dogwood on my place, but it is so far back in the briars, I ain't going in there just to look at a leaf.

Cope · « **Reply #4 on:** May 31, 2009, 10:32:24 am »

Quote from: DanG on May 31, 2009, 09:35:57 am

The hilly part? Sorry, I just couldn't resist that.

Yeah, I have one leg longer than the other from growing up around here.

Dogwood, maybe I don't know. I do have another Dogwood tree here on my place, but its the flowering type as the leaves are different than above and it produces flowers in early spring. The base of that tree is in bad shape. Its such a beautiful tree and I like to save it. What area of this site would be best to post about trying to save that tree?

I checked my field guide before I originally posted, but I just can't find a good match for these two. I have some other trees that I'm having difficulty with, but I thought I would try to get some help with these first. Thanks.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #5 on:** May 31, 2009, 11:19:05 am »

Dogwood for the first and cucumber tree for number 2 I think. Did the second tree have big terminal buds about 1/2"-3/4" long and silky hairs?

DanG · « **Reply #6 on:** May 31, 2009, 11:27:19 am »

Well, I was just about to conclude that it isn't Dogwood, since it doesn't flower like a Dogwood, and the leaves are different from the known Dogwood. The form of the tree in that first pic does suggest it, though.

This thread is as good a place as any to ask about saving that tree. This board seems to attract the folks that really know about such things. Be patient though, as some of them are either returning or recovering from Sawlex.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #7 on:** May 31, 2009, 11:51:39 am »

The form and leaves remind me of alternate leaf dogwood. The only native species with an alternate leaf arrangement on the stems. They grow about 25 feet high around here.

Here's an old one I think the road crew cut down up by the woodlot.

http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,7408.0.html

Lanier_Lurker · « **Reply #8 on:** June 01, 2009, 10:45:34 am »

The second tree looks like it could be blackgum.

It could also be fringetree.

How large a tree is it?

Cope · « **Reply #9 on:** June 01, 2009, 12:06:10 pm »

Quote from: SwampDonkey on May 31, 2009, 11:19:05 am

Dogwood for the first and cucumber tree for number 2 I think. Did the second tree have big terminal buds about 1/2"-3/4" long and silky hairs?

When I was first looking in my guide I thought the cucumber tree leaves were a match, but the picture of the bark in my guide didn't look at all like my tree. I haven't ever noticed silky hairs on the tree, but I haven't been looking for them either.

Cope · « **Reply #10 on:** June 01, 2009, 12:12:08 pm »

Quote from: Lanier_Lurker on June 01, 2009, 10:45:34 am

The second tree looks like it could be blackgum.

It could also be fringetree.

How large a tree is it?

I don't think its fringetree, but I'm no expert. This particular tree is pretty small. Maybe 6 inches in diameter and 15 ft tall. However, there is another one nearby that is at least two times as big.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #11 on:** June 01, 2009, 03:02:28 pm »

Yellow green upper leaf surfaces is characteristic of cucumber tree. Beech can be to for that matter, but it ain't beech.

The Silky hairs are on the buds.

WDH · « **Reply #12 on:** June 01, 2009, 07:50:51 pm »

Like the Swamp man said. Dogwood and cucumber tree.

LeeB · « **Reply #13 on:** June 01, 2009, 08:27:40 pm »

Is a cucumber tree in the same family as magnolia? Kinda looks like it to me.

Dodgy Loner · « **Reply #14 on:** June 02, 2009, 12:36:49 pm »

The first one is dogwood, no doubt about it. The arcuate venation gives it away. Looks like the leaves are arranged oppositely, and the bark is rather rough for such a small tree, so I would guess that it's plain old flowering dogwood, and not one of the minor species.

The second I believe is a blackgum, not a cucumber tree. Notice that the leaves are arranged in a circular pattern around the end of the twig. Cucumber tree generally has leaves that are arranged pinnately along the stem, not clustered toward the end. The two are very easy to tell apart by the twig. Cucumber tree will have a stipular scar that completely encircles the twig beside every leaf (it's basically just a distinctive line that goes all the way around the twig). Blackgum will not have these distinctive stipular scars. They are also easy to tell apart by the terminal bud, but only when the tree is not actively growing. Best time to use bud characteristics is late summer throught the end of winter.

WDH · « **Reply #15 on:** June 03, 2009, 11:28:10 am »

The leaves are a little large for blackgum (note leaves in the background of the bark pic). I still think that it is cucumber tree. The bark looks like cucumber tree. The stipular scars will tell the tale.

LeeB · « **Reply #16 on:** June 03, 2009, 02:30:29 pm »

Guess not.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #17 on:** June 03, 2009, 02:53:46 pm »

I think the owner said the flower wasn't the same on his dogwood as the flowering dogwood. I know western dogwood has a flower like a bunch berry, it's the provincial flower.

Cope · « **Reply #18 on:** June 03, 2009, 06:02:03 pm »

Quote from: SwampDonkey on June 03, 2009, 02:53:46 pm

I think the owner said the flower wasn't the same on his dogwood as the flowering dogwood.

That is correct. My other dogwood produces flowers and the leaves and bark are different. I'll take a picture of it and put it on here. I've been kind of busy lately, but I'll try to do it soon. I'll also try to get another picture of the presence or lack of stipular scars on the other tree in discussion, although I'll have to do some research first to see what I'm looking for.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #19 on:** June 04, 2009, 03:24:13 pm »

Stipules guard the bud, often times are leaf-like on some plants or can form spurs like on apples (I think).

Dodgy Loner · « **Reply #20 on:** June 05, 2009, 08:27:42 am »

Cope, just take a close-up picture of the twig where a leaf connects to it. We will be able to tell whether or not the stipular scar is there without any problems.

WDH · « **Reply #21 on:** June 05, 2009, 05:41:21 pm »

Yes, stipules are associated with the leaf petiole (the little stem that connects the leaf to the twig). Of course that was where the bud was that made the leaf in the first place

.

Cope · « **Reply #22 on:** June 05, 2009, 06:51:19 pm »

I finally got time to take a few more pics of Tree 2. Hopefully they show what is needed. By the way, thanks to all for the help so far:

Here are a couple shots of my flowering dogwood for comparison purposes to the one I posted before:

Here is one looking at the base of that tree. It looks in bad shape to me (a little darker than usual because it just quit raining.) Does it look like its going to survive on its own, or should I try to do something to help it out?

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #23 on:** June 06, 2009, 04:44:29 am »

I called the original dogwood an alternate leaf because the crowns have a tiered appearance to them and leaf veins follow the edges to the tip with crowding of leaves giving ab opposite or whorled look on twig tips and it hybridizes with red-osier. Fruit is almost black with red stems. In New Brunswick we don't have flowering dogwoods; just alternate-leaf, roundleaf, and red-osier.

WDH · « **Reply #24 on:** June 07, 2009, 05:58:33 pm »

The stipular scars are hard to see because of the very slow growth. Even so, I still think that it is cucumber tree. Those leaf scars are not black gumish.

LeeB · « **Reply #25 on:** June 07, 2009, 11:10:18 pm »

Quote from: LeeB on June 01, 2009, 08:27:40 pm

Is a cucumber tree in the same family as magnolia? Kinda looks like it to me.

I'll try again. inquiring mind want to know.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #26 on:** June 08, 2009, 03:49:29 pm »

Yes, LeeB they are. Thought someone answered ya, but browsing back through the thread I see ya got missed.

LeeB · « **Reply #27 on:** June 08, 2009, 05:18:18 pm »

Thank you. Just trying to continue my eddakation. The picture looked like a Magnolia to me, das why I axed.

WDH · « **Reply #28 on:** June 09, 2009, 07:29:14 am »

Some people call it cucumber magnolia. It has a nice showy flower.

Cope · « **Reply #29 on:** June 11, 2009, 08:38:28 pm »

So, after I posted the additional pics, is it fair to say that the consensus is that tree #2 is a cucumber tree?

Dodgy Loner · « **Reply #30 on:** June 22, 2009, 08:21:26 am »

It's a blackgum.

Your close-ups of the twig have two characteristics that identify it as a blackgum, rather than a cucumbertree. First, the twig is what is known as a "short shoot", meaning that the leaves are clustered very tightly together, and the stem is elongating very slowly. Unfortunately, this makes it impossible to distinguish whether or not any stipular scars are encircling the twig, since the leaf scars are packed so tightly together. However, short shoots are very common on blackgum. I don't believe they normally occur on magnolias (if they do, it's not very common). Second, cucumber tree has a very long, narrow, U-shaped leaf scar, much unlike the broad diamond-shaped and half-moon leaf scars on your twigs. Finally, the undersides of the leaves lack the glaucous coating that one would expect on cucumbertree, but not on blackgum.

I also still believe that the dogwood is a flowering dogwood. It's definitely not an alternate-leaf dogwood, as evidenced by the opposite leaf arrangement in the second-to-last photo.

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Author Topic: A couple trees to ID (Read 1986 times)