TimberKing Sawmills

Peterson Portable Sawmills



Please visit this sponsor

The Largest Inventory of Used Chainsaw Parts in the World

Toll Free 1-800-582-0470

LogRite Tools

Lucas Sawmills

Forest Products Industry Insurance

Norwood Industries Inc.

Eggimann Motor and Equipment Sales Inc.

Sawmill & Woodlot Magazine

Wood-Mizer Band Blades

Carolina Machinery Sales is a machinery dealer that specializes in the Wood Processing Industry.

Wood Processing equpment. Splitters, Processors, Conveyors

Your source for Portable Sawmills, Edgers, Resaws, Sharpeners, Setters, Bandsaw Blades and Sawmill Parts

Portable Sawmill and Planers Made by Logosol.

EZ Boardwalk Sawmills. More Saw For Less Money!

STIHLDealers.com sponsored by Northeast STIHL

Lawn-Gardening-Tools.com

Hutto Wood Products

Woodland Sawmills

Forestry Forum Tool Box

Author Topic: Timber Theft  (Read 1225 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Robert953

  • Member*
  • *
  • Posts: 2
Timber Theft
« on: April 22, 2009, 09:36:51 am »
Can the diameter at breast height be calculated when all that is left in the woods is a 4-5 inch high stump?
I found a calculation for taper on a forestry web site, and the three most used log rules, but I need to know breast height in able to calculate volume in board feet.
I had 25 mature trees removed by an unethical logger from my woods. Regardless of his actions (unethical) I want to be fair and honest in my actions and calculations when I seek restitution. I don't want more than what should be an honest and fair compensation for what was taken. Thanks, Robert953

Offline stonebroke

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 2004
  • Age: 58
  • Location: warnerville NY
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm new!
Re: Timber Theft
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2009, 09:45:10 am »
I would get a forester to do it. If you go to court his word will have more sway than yours.

Stonebroke

Offline John Mc

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1662
  • Age: 50
  • Location: Vermont
  • Gender: Male
Re: Timber Theft
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2009, 09:51:49 am »
Anything you do is going to be an estimate. Keep in mind that if he was stealing anyway, he was most likely stealing your best trees. Why would he mess around with the risks involved with timber theft and take only low-grade trees? If he grabbed a veneer-grade tree, that's a lot of value... unfortunately there's probably no telling now.

Can you find similar sized trees of the same species still standing to compare with? Still inexact, but at least gives you something to support your arguments.

I second the recommendation to have a forester make an estimate. Even if he/she is just guessing, a forester's guess will count for more than a landowner's (plus may be seen as less biased).

John Mc
Small time fire-wooder in a neighborhood cooperative.

If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Online Texas Ranger

  • Forester
  • *
  • Posts: 4105
  • Age: 71
  • Location: Livingston, Texas, God's Country
  • Gender: Male
  • Texan, by God and by choice.
    • Staples Forestry
Re: Timber Theft
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2009, 09:54:49 am »
Good advice, all.  Get a forester, he will compare the stumps to trees left to find form  class, taper, and volume.  His word will be stronger than yours in court, and if you get a settlement, they pay for him as well.
The Ranger, home of Texas Forestry

Offline Robert953

  • Member*
  • *
  • Posts: 2
Re: Timber Theft
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2009, 10:34:39 am »
Thank's to you all, I will check in to obtaining a forester for the estimates, I originally wanted to have this logging done to help my granddaughters financially. They both are new moms going through some difficult times with their husbands, (economy) and great grandpa wanted to try to help.

Offline Ron Scott

  • Forester
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5472
  • Age: 76
  • Location: Cadillac, MI
  • Gender: Male
    • Ron Scotts Web
Re: Timber Theft
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2009, 10:56:36 am »
Yes there are tables developed for determining diameter at breast height (dbh) and stump diameter relationships for softwoods, hardwoods, and aspen. We us Technical Note #507 from the Lake States Forest Experiment Station, USDA-Forest Service here.

Best advice though is as stated above is to have a professional certified forester do the determination for you. Also your damages may be more than you think.
~Ron

Offline John Mc

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1662
  • Age: 50
  • Location: Vermont
  • Gender: Male
Re: Timber Theft
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2009, 11:37:52 am »
Also your damages may be more than you think.

I know here in Vermont, if the boundaries are properly marked (or if it's obvious) and someone crosses over and steals timber, there are penalties well beyond the value of the timber. I can't remember with any certainty, but I think it's triple. If it's an "honest mistake" (property line unclear, and someone accidentally went a bit too far, for example), I believe it's just the timber value you get back.

If this was intentional, I would not let the guy off lightly. If all you get back is the timber value, there is no incentive for him not to steal again... worst case for him, he pays you what the timber was worth. Best case, he doesn't get caught, and he pockets the whole amount.

Don't forget to include any damage he may have done to the residual stand. If he's banged up some otherwise valuable trees still standing, he should pay for the value lost there as well.

John
Small time fire-wooder in a neighborhood cooperative.

If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Offline VT_Forestry

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 235
  • Age: 30
  • Location: Newport News, VA
  • Gender: Male
Re: Timber Theft
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2009, 03:22:51 pm »
Here in Virginia, if I remember correctly, you have 2 options...it's either a timber trespass or a timber theft.  Theft is very hard to prove because the logger can just claim "oh well I didn't have clear instructions from the landowner where I was supposed to be cutting, I thought I was still on their property"  I think the damages, if you're able to recover them, are triple here as well.  Good luck with everything, it's a tough spot to be in and hopefully a certified forester will help you regain your losses.
Forester - Newport News Waterworks

Offline stonebroke

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 2004
  • Age: 58
  • Location: warnerville NY
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm new!
Re: Timber Theft
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2009, 05:42:40 pm »
In NY it is triple damages and the adjoining landowner is the one ultimately responsible ,I think.

Stonebroke

Offline cheyenne

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 676
  • Age: 70
  • Location: warrensburg,n.y.
  • Gender: Male
Re: Timber Theft
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2009, 08:36:10 pm »
Why are you trying to be nice. Have his keester arressted and put in jail. You'll never get what your owed so make his life like your trees. Dead with Buba.....Cheyenne
Home of the white buffalo

Offline SwampDonkey

  • Board Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 26851
  • Age: 44
  • Location: Centreville, NB
  • Gender: Male
  • Large Tooth
Re: Timber Theft
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2009, 06:09:30 am »
You can determine diameter at breast height as Ron and others suggested. Also, some companies or DNR's have tree length tables to find volumes as well. Myself, I like to measure trees in adjoining stands at the stump and breast height to find the relationship of that site. I find the correlation is  95% confidence or better. Here is one model I found from a site I did a stump cruise on for hardwood and aspen. This may not be exact, as I lost my original data. Diameters in cm's.




DBH = 0.94DSH - 2.43

R2 = 0.99


Pre-commercial thinning pays off. :)

'If she wants to play lumberjack, she's going to have to learn to handle her end of the log.'
Dirty Harry

 

Saw Anywhere!