Consulting foresters' choice of scale

[Frickman]

In my area, Southwestern Pennsylvania, the Doyle log scale is the most prevelant scale used. For those of us who are actually cutting wood on a commercial basis it is the only scale we use. There are many consulting foresters running around marking timber who put out tracts for bid using the Scribner and International 1/4 scales. Most consulting foresters working for the landowner use these two scales. Why? Is it to get a higher number to show the landowner? Or is it because that is what they were told to use back when they were in forestry school?

Now I don't want to get into a big discussion about the merits of all the scales. That's been done before. Most everyone in the industry in my corner of the world understands the differences between them. We price everything according to Doyle. Yes, we can multiply Scribner or International by a certain percentage and come up with Doyle, I know that. And I can only pay so much for a log or tree, regardless of the scale. If it is measured in International I will be paying a lower price per board foot than in Doyle. Still the same price for the log or tree, no matter what the scale. Why can't the consulting foresters just measure trees with the scale that is standard in this area? It would make things alot easier on the folks actually cutting the wood.

[Ron Wenrich]

When I was doing marking, we would always talk to the landowner in International scale.  Our prices were on that scale, and most of the state foresters were working on that scale.  The state has since converted to their own scale, which makes it interesting in those areas.  International was the prevalent scale when I was in college.

But, when I put out bid sheets, I always put on 2 scales - Doyle and International.  If I was in an area that Scribner was also used, then I would put Scribner on instead of International.  But, I had a background with mills, and I scaled and graded logs before I marked timber.  So, I knew that loggers wanted mainly the Doyle scale.

Consultants that ignore the prevalent scale used in the marketing of logs aren't doing a good service for the buyer.  With today's computers, its really pretty simple compared to back when we would grind things out with a calculator then go and type out the bid prospectus. 

[beenthere]

If the bdft volume of lumber in a log(s) is of interest, use the International scale. Also knowing the estimated volume in Doyle will give the landowner an idea what the buyer (if he buys on Doyle) will be paying.

As pointed out, the price will adjust the differences.

Depends on what volume in bdft is of interest. International will be closer to what is (or should be) sawn out of the logs.

Both scale estimates would be important information to know, as Ron points out.

Frickman:  What information would you like to have?  A close estimate of board footage in a log? Or what a log buyer will say are in your logs for which he will pay xx dollars a thousand?

[Frickman]

beenthere,

All I am looking for is consistency. I buy timber and logs, and sometimes lumber, and sell logs and lumber. I cut timber and mill logs, everything from the stump to ready to go into the kiln. I do a little air drying and planing too. I'm fifth generation, at least, in the business, and have no problem with understanding the scales and what a log will saw out. All I'm looking for is for the foresters who are measuring and marketing timber to use the same scale that the industry uses in my area. We're the ones who are utilizing the trees that they mark. It's like Ron said that they are doing a disservice to the landowner. It's almost like we're buying in gallons and they're selling in liters. There's nothing wrong with either, just use the same system that the industry uses.

[beenthere]

But, when I put out bid sheets, I always put on 2 scales - Doyle and International.

I agree with what Ron said. 

It's almost like we're buying in gallons and they're selling in liters.

The units for both scales are estimates in board feet.  But then, somewheres they do use cubic feet and cubic meters.   

Over the years, in my recollection, there have been attempts to get just one scale. But, there are those that just won't give up the scale they want to use.   I think some states have decided on an official scale...

I'm not trying to win anyone over to one or the other..just some reasons why several might exist. Doyle, International, and Scribner log scale rules are just the tip of the iceberg too.   

Now dealing with wood, softwood/hardwood log grades, lumber grades, pulp wood measure, firewood cord measure,
and a host of other estimates of volume or quality can take on a multitude of different 'rules' or customs between different users, sellers, and buyers. The value paid sorts a lot of that out, IF the buyer and seller both realize what is really being bought and sold.  That can be a big IF, seems to me anyways.

Buy on Doyle and sell on International. 

[Frickman]

beenthere,

The buyers and sellers, at least the ones doing the actual cutting, understand the scales and realize what is being bought and sold. Our prices reflect that. My region uses just Doyle scale because it always has and we're too stubborn to change. It'd take a long time too. So we just stick with Doyle and everyone is happy with it. Until I get a prospectus from some forester that's measured in International 1/4. Then I spend alot of time converting all the volumes to Doyle. I have to do a lot more thinking with International too. I don't use it everyday so I have to make sure I don't screw up something and cost myself a lot of money.

I've only ever traded in Scribner or International a few times, and that was with veneer buyers. They had their prices set to Scribner or International and that was fine. The actual veneer selling process, grading, scaling, and trimming logs,  has a slow enough pace that I can use my Doyle stick and calculator to convert all the numbers to Doyle. It's bidding on timber in another scale that gives me fits. The timber buyers are the landowner and forester's customers, why can't they just use the same scale we use?

[jrdwyer]

The mills in this area use Doyle scale and so I measure trees and logs in Doyle. As I only sell timber on a lump sum basis and not by the unit, the scale used does not determine the overall value of a tract of timber.

Even with Doyle, different Consulting Foresters use different minimum size standards. So a forester who measures to a 12" top DIB will show less volume than one who measures to 8" or 10" top for sawtimber. I had one buyer get quite upset with me when Doyle log scale of a tract he bought came out the same as Doyle tree scale. He was used to buying from others who typically under scaled by 30%. He never asked me any questions about how I measure trees before he bid, so I did not feel that bad about it. He apparently got over it, because he has bid again on my sales. From that point on, I have made it a point to always list minimum measuring specs and form class used so that new buyers know how I do things.

Landowners have contacted me about timber sales that were sold on the shares and by the unit (where it went bad) who feel they have been ripped off by mills because they have learned how Doyle tree/log scale underestimates sawn volume. I try to explain to them that in a competitive situation for either timber or logs, the Doyle price is the true value of the product. Unfortunately, many of those who contact me in such circumstances did not sell the timber in a way that maximized the price. By this point in time, they typically don't want to hear what I have to say and it is usually a lost cause.

On the same subject, do you buy any Forest Service timber measured in ccf and what do you think about this?

[Clark]

...I think some states have decided on an official scale...

You mean, like Wisconsin!  Unless otherwise noted, all bd-ft. volumes in a WI timber sale are presumed to be in Scribner decimal C.  So my sources tell me...

Trying to get a standard set would be like converting the US to metric.  Sure it's happening, but it's taking a long time.  In '75, '88, '91 and '94 there have been significant laws implemented to "make" the US convert to metric.

Clark

[Frickman]

I don't buy any Forest Service timber, there is none around here. There is some state timber that is sold, but I've never bid on it for various reasons. I only buy private timber, as it is the most abundant in my area.

I just got a prospectus scaled in International down to a nine inch top, and topwood down to a three inch top. In our eastern hardwoods it is generally unfeasible to saw smaller than ten inches and to pull out topwood smaller than six inches. In some straight tulip poplar or soft maple you might pull out down to four inches, but you will rarely go that small in twisted up oak tops. Alot of topwood is left because it is too gnarly to pull out and load on a truck. Now this is a lump sum sale, so you can figure out the topwood however you want. With the conversion factor to Doyle of about 71% and how far up the tree was scaled I'm guessing that it will actually cut out in Doyle about 60% of the stated volume.

[Brian_Rhoad]

I was informed by a log buyer with many years experience that the official scale in PA is the Doyle scale. International, Doyle and Scribner are all used here in Central PA.

[Frickman]

Brian,

Somebody was yanking your chain. There is no official anything in PA when it comes to the hardwood industry. One of the great things about the industry in this state is that we are self regulating. There is no bureau of weights and measures to tell us what a board foot is, the difference between a number one log and number two log, etc. You don't need a liscense to cut timber, buy logs, sell logs, saw logs, or even call yourself a forester. The free market helps regulate everything it all works pretty good. If we could just get some foresters on the same page as the rest of us I'd be a lot happier.

[jrdwyer]

I generally measure to a 10" DIB top for sawtimber. I measure pulpwood trees that will be destroyed by the larger ones. I don't measure topwood that could be utilized for pulp or firewood. This may change in the future if greater utilization for energy starts to occur.

Most of the buyers in this area are still chainsaw/ skidder and so don't mess with topwood or pulpwood trees because it is not worth their time. We do have a few buyers with timbco machines and they cut it tight, probably down to 3" top DIB. Because of the reductions in sawmill output, the one local paper mill has become more desperate for chips and one timber buyer is chipping at the woods for direct shipment to the mill.

[Ron Wenrich]

I never bothered too much with trying to figure out whether it was an 8" top or a 12" top.  When you're cutting hardwoods, they don't always drop the way you expect them too, and those tops get busted up.  Trying to get logs out of limbwood is a losing proposition.  I scale a tree to where the top breaks up, unless it has something that looks like it will sustain the fall.

What I have seen guys do is cull out a bunch of trees or underscale those miscellaneous species.  That gives them some padding for when they overscale the better stuff.  One forester will cull out all the miscellaneous species, whether they are good or bad.

I've also run into those guys that like that 30% overrun.  The only business the forester has is to give an honest estimation of the amount of timber that is there.  His scale should be close to the actual harvest.  If its too high or too low, then he needs to adjust his scaling techniques.  Mine have always been close, but allowed for an overrun. 

There is no official scale in PA.  I know of mills that buy on International, Scribner and Doyle.  Some even buy some logs on one scale, and other logs on a different scale.  The state uses the International scale on their timber sales. 

[Brian_Rhoad]

By "official" he/I meant what is used by the court system when settling cases.

[jrdwyer]

I should clarify, I only measure to a 10" DIB top if it is a straight main bole (common with tulip or sweetgum, as examples). With heavily branched oaks, the top diameter could easily be greater than 10" and the branchwood wouldn't be measured.

[jrdwyer]

On the subject of miscellaneous species, I am a splitter and separate all species. My reason for this is that even a lowly beech could possibly be worth more than tie log prices to a mill like Frank Miller who is a big quartersawn player. I know some of my buyers sell into the QS market. The same story could be applied to some miscellaneous species for veneer. Indiana has great veneer markets!

[Ron Wenrich]

We've been selling black birch as veneer, as well as hickory.  We even sold some large sycamore for near veneer prices. 

[cheyenne]

O.K. color me Dumb. Why isn't there just one scale so everyones on the same page. ...Cheyenne

[woodtroll]

Scales are just estimations of volume. They try to adjust for taper, form and kerf. These are all different in different areas. So to come up with an accurate way to estimate volume of standing trees someone(s) came up with these calculations. Well, after they came up with them some other people thought they were not accurate for their use and came up with new calculations. And so on. That's what happens when you let mathematicians in forestry. In measurements classes they will tell you repeatedly how one scale will rip off the landowner, or is misleading. But If you all are consistent and bidding on the same trees it would not matter. It is an estimate. So If I am selling 100 trees I estimate each to have 250 bdft ave. and you come in and know you have a special market for the top wood, bid the price up. If your mill has a band saw and small kerf you know you can get more. You know soon learn that you can always get 30% more then the Doyle scale. Or which ever scale you use.
I have not seen any one perfect scale for all situations. The markets and trees are to diverse across our wonderful country.

So my short opinion is no one is getting ripped of by the scale if everyone is using the same one on a sale.

[Ron Wenrich]

I'd even take it a step further as no two foresters will scale a woodlot the same, and even the same forester wouldn't scale it the same twice.

Lump sum bids do away with value per bf.