Old four sided planer (Hall & Brown)

[StorminN]

I went back the other day and took some measurements and removed one of the main head knives to get a closer look...

The main head is 12" wide, 4.45" square, and the shaft is 1.5" in diameter at the operator's end where it enters the Babbitt... the shaft is 61" long (!) overall... Ironwood, I imagine this means I would have to somehow have a separate head and side shaft if I were to replace the main head? (since I'm not going to find or want to pay for a 61" wide planer head to be machined down)

The main head knife is about 13" wide and 4-1/8" deep. The body of the knife is 3/8" steel, and it's got what looks like what started as about a 0.150" x 0.75" hardened edge welded to both the front and rear, and it's sharpened in a hollow ground manner. That one knife weighs 5.4lbs! The good news is, I have a grinder for my sawmill's teeth that will sharpen Stellite, so hopefully it will work on these. There's also the possibility that the grinder for these knives is still somewhere on the place...








The bad news is that the knife bolts have seen better days... I only removed three bolts (one knife), but of those three, two have been welded on to add material, and the other one looks tweaked and stretched... anyone out there got a source for these square head bolts? I looked on McMaster-Carr, they have something similar, but they're made for holding down pieces to work surfaces, not necessarily made for 5.4lb blades spinning at who knows how many rpm's...



-N.

[pineywoods]

Sorry Norm,no pics.  it was Hall and Brown. Except for some differences in the drive belts and pulleys, it looked exactly like the pictures you posted. I came very close to acquiring the old gal, but better judgement prevailed. There was a huge assortment of knives with it, all rusted. I put them, a few at a time in a small concrete mixer filled with dry sand. they cleaned up nicely. I figured on using two gas engines for power. A horizontal shaft 20 hp to v-belt drive the upper and lower heads. Then a 20 hp vertical shaft engine to v-belt drive the side cutters plus a trans-axle from a riding mower to drive the feed rollers. It sold for scrap price to a guy from Folsom, Louisiana. Just across the lake from New Orleans. Originally it came from a commercial mill in north central Louisiana. The original power plant was a 6 cyl continental industrial engine converted to run on natural gas. No idea how old. It was in full operation when my family moved to this area in 1949.

[StorminN]

pineywoods,

Did the guy from Folsom get the knives, too? Or are they still bouncing around somewhere?

-N.

[pineywoods]

pineywoods,

Did the guy from Folsom get the knives, too? Or are they still bouncing around somewhere?

-N.

Yeah, he wanted every one of them. There was shapes for just about any kind of board you can imagine..

[Ironwood]

I have seen some pretty wide heads out there. Most had 12"-20" on each side of the cutting area. The other option is to "stack" modern indexable style heads ona shaft. I HAD bought 5 piees at one of the BIG IRS sales this year, all the same diameter, length and bore. Some sorry SOB sole them off the pallet before I got there to get them, I had a very good plan, it would have made a 30+" head. I was going to use it on a jointer. I watched a local IRS sale last week online , 3 pieces 9" across went thru the roof $$$$, so no luck there. This stack of 3 would have made a 27" head. Gotta think outside the box, if you could find some cheap, you would really have something nice (good ole arn, and modern technology). Keep your eyes out. You can even stack round safety heads.

 Those buggered up bolts were what I was talking about "country" usage. They look like the new old stock square head bolts I run through the forge to make them look old and nasty, got 64 pieces for my next set of bunk beds? 


   Ironwood

[StorminN]

Hi Ironwood,

I guess I need to take a closer look at modern planers. I didn't realize the newer heads were separate items from the shafts... if that's the case, I might already have a shaft that's long enough, and could have a friend machine it to fit the existing bearings. I would hope it wouldn't be too hard to find a 12" head to slide onto it. Do the heads normally press on, or are they splined, have a keyway, etc.?

You speak of stacking heads... when you do this, you still use one-piece knives, right? (So a 24" knife in three 8" heads)? I don't think I'll need to do this, I'm just curious.

Yes, this molder has seen much "country" usage... the more I look at it, the more I see how stuff has been tacked together "farmer" style. If I swap the bolts or the heads, I'll most likely have 24 buggered up ones I can send you...

Thanks,
-Norm.

[pineywoods]

Norm if you are serious about replacing them square heads, look at the setup on a woodmaster planer. The head is solid with a tapered hole in each end. Matchin stub shaft fits in the holes with a draw bolt to hold it in place. Simple, works well.

[Ironwood]

There are all sorts of ways to attach the multi heads, you'll just have to wait and see what you find, then machine to specs. Some are jamb nuts, others are hydrolock (grease pressure squeezes the head to the shaft).

 Yes, you can run a single blade in multiple heads, stack away. Look for matched bore, dia., and # knives.

 Ironwood

[StorminN]

Thanks guys,

pineywoods, you just reminded me, we have a Woodmaster at work... I will check it out when I get back...

-Norm.

[logwalker]

Norm, I might have some heads that will work. PM me with diameters and shaft sizes. Joe

[StorminN]

Well, I finally got into the shed next to this molder today, and saw what I have to work with... a handful of rolls and pieces of flat belting, a flat belt lacer gizmo, some clipper laces in boxes, various odds and ends of sawmill and planer / molder stuff... nuts, bolts, what looks like a couple of home-made knife setters for the molder. I forgot my camera at home... doh!

Anyway, the best news was four more side cutter heads for the molder... two are set up for tongue and groove, and two are set up for what looks like lap siding? There are two more on the molder right now, those just have straight cutters in them (I assume for S4S).

The heads set up for t&g are marked:
       "The Philbrick Cutter Head."
       "Pat. Aug.1, Sept. 19, 1899"
                "Seattle, Wash"
               (serial number?)

The other two heads are unmarked, and I haven't yet removed the heads from the molder to see if they have any identification.

I took some pics once I got home...

Philbrick cutter heads:









Four cutter head (unmarked):





Six cutter head (marked only with a serial number?):






Does anyone have any info on any of these heads? Thanks in advance...

-Norm.

[StorminN]

An update...

I got my two "good" Michigan Knife / Disston / Philbrick knives back from the knife shop. They ground them to be a consistent 3/8" thick, and sharpened them for me. They fit the top head better now.

The PO was using a super big knife projection... about 5/8"... I think he was doing this because he was using long knife bolts and thick nuts, and consequently had to have a big projection in order to clear the nuts and bolts.

I ordered one set of knife hardware from Wisconsin Knife Works, to see what it was like. At $45 a set ($26 a bolt, $16 a nut, plus washer and shipping)  , I can't afford to buy 16 or 32 sets of these, so I've been trying to source other hardware. It turns out the WKW bolt is the perfect size for the bottom head, but it's too short for the top head on my machine.

I've ordered an assortment of machine hold-down bolts... t-slot bolts, from different manufacturers. The first one, a ZIP bolt from George H Seltzer came in the other day. Here's the $3.45 Seltzer bolt on the left, and the $26 WKW bolt on the right. The Seltzer bolt is forged C-1045 steel, and can be heat treated to Grade 5. The WKW bolt is 4140 machine steel, I'm not sure what grade it's equivalent to.





I had to machine the head of the Zip bolt down a little bit to fit the t-slots properly, but for the top head, it's a better fit than the WKW bolt... here's the Zip bolt with a standard jam nut in the foreground, the WKW bolt & nut in the background. The WKW nut is 1-1/4" on the flats and 3/8" thick. The jam nut is a little smaller, 1-1/16" on the flats.





At least I can get back to an 1/8" or so projection now.

Anyone got any opinions on what sort of grade these bolts need to be? I've heard everything from "they need to be 170,000 psi tensile" (higher than Grade 8 ), to "back in 1900 when that machine was new, I'd be surprised if the original bolts were stronger than Grade 2" (about 75,000 psi). I've found t-slot bolts in everything from 75,000 psi to 150,000 psi... about $4 to $15 each for 5/8"-11 x 1-1/2" bolts.

While I'm at it, does anyone know of a source of 5/8"-11 nuts that are 1-1/4" on the flats, but only 3/8" thick? I'd rather not pay $16 per nut. 

Thanks,
-Norm.

[Sprucegum]

You can saw an ordinary-thickness nut in half so that the half left is the 3/8 you need. Just lock it onto a cheap sacrificial bolt and cut right through with a hacksaw or zipcut blade. So long as you don't get it red hot the temper/tensile strength will not be affected.

[StorminN]

You can saw an ordinary-thickness nut in half so that the half left is the 3/8 you need. Just lock it onto a cheap sacrificial bolt and cut right through with a hacksaw or zipcut blade. So long as you don't get it red hot the temper/tensile strength will not be affected.

Thanks for the tip, Sprucegum... I like that! However, I haven't been able to find reasonably-priced 5/8"-11 nuts that are 1-1/4" on the flats, no matter what the thickness... if you know of a source, let me know!

Thanks,
-Norm.

[Ironwood]

Be sure t omake yourself some protective shielding 
 
 Ironwood