Author Topic: Old four sided planer (Hall & Brown) (Read 4405 times)

StorminN · « **on:** March 25, 2009, 09:59:11 pm »

Hi guys,

A friend of mine has an old planer that I think I'm going to acquire from her. It was left to her from her Dad when he passed away this past Fall. He also had a circle mill, you can read that thread and see the pictures of it here:

Anyway, I've been contemplating ways to process rough cut lumber from my Mobile Dimension mill... I have the need to make tongue in groove boards and lap siding, and I've been thinking about planers and shapers and such... smaller machines -- and then I went to look at this:

It's an old Hall & Brown four-sided planer / molder. My friend would like me to have it, since I would appreciate and use it. I'd like to have it, too... I just have to figure out how to move it and need to build a shed to put it in. I'm told it last ran about five years ago. It's dirty, but it's under cover and everything rotates by hand, no binding. If I didn't know any better, after a close inspection to make sure everything is tight and / or well lubed, I'd try and start it up... maybe with a small electric motor at first, just to make sure everything will spin right, etc.

Obviously, I'm a total greenhorn when it comes to equipment like this... I know it's dangerous and can shred / kill me in an instant, so I have respect for it... but without someone here who knows this actual machine, what do you do?

So my questions to you guys are... does anyone know anything about this particular brand or machine? I've seen other Hall & Browns online, but not one like this. I searched the forum and a couple of people mentioned having their planers, but not a four-sided molder. What about the square heads? I recall reading bad things about them? My friend tells me her Dad has spare knifes for it somewhere, including knives for T&G, lap siding, bevel siding, and perhaps cove siding. It looks like it will take a maximum of about a rough sawn 2"x12".

Here's some more pics:

Planer shed:

infeed rollers and controls

infeed rollers and square four-bladed top (first) head

six-bladed side (second) head

six-bladed side (second and third) heads

square four-bladed bottom (fourth) head

driveline side

Hall & Brown nameplate

drive wheel

engine

driveline

driveline

infeed end

driveline

patch on the base, looks like the casting was somehow cracked way back when

closeup of bottom (fourth) head

VT_Forestry · « **Reply #1 on:** March 25, 2009, 10:58:04 pm »

That is an awesome machine. Not gonna lie though, looks like it will kill you in a half second

I'd love to see/hear that thing run!

beav39 · « **Reply #2 on:** March 26, 2009, 06:03:33 am »

these mills are dangerous but as long as you respect that you can really put out some fine product,im in the process of setting up a berlin machine works four sided moulder as soon as the snow is gone i will posts pics.i would say go for it just make sure you take notes on everything when you tear it down so putting it back together will go smooth scot

nomad · « **Reply #3 on:** March 26, 2009, 06:27:44 am »

   I REALLY envy you for a chance to work on that old iron!!!

   What does it use for motors? I'd want to check them carefully to make sure they're in good condition, or have them checked out by a motor shop (assuming it's got electric motors, that is.) In particular, take a careful look at the start circuits. Make sure the switches and wiring are in good condition. Otherwise, replace them. After cleaning and inspecting everything, I'd disconnect the belts and bump each motor to make sure it turns okay. Don't try to use power to turn any components until you're sure there's no interference. Turning things without any blades installed might be a real good idea, for starters.

   Once you've got it moved and installed, you'll need to check the infeed and outfeed tables for alignment. Also make sure the heads are properly aligned and are easily adjusted.

   Has it got babbitt bearings? If so, make sure they're not worn. Instructions for repouring babbitt bearings are easily found and it's not difficult to do. Square heads are scary, yes.

   You're right when you think that old machine could be dangerous. I'd want to fabricate safety guards for all the exposed pulleys and belts, as well as the cutters, if they don't have any. If you plan to try operating it without them in the beginning, I suggest putting up caution tape or some other barrier as a reminder to yourself and keeping other people as far away as possible. I'd also want to disable the start circuits whenever I wasn't around it, unless you'll be able to lock the space you have it in. It'd only take one curious person to win the "Darwin award" when you weren't there.

   Good luck with it. I sure wish it was me instead of you!

   Bill

Ironwood · « **Reply #4 on:** March 26, 2009, 06:51:09 am »

I would at least put some round (safety) heads on the primary planing head. Square planing heads are not dangerous (per se) as they are captive in the machine. You have to make sure the knives are secure in the holders though (and that bolts have NOT been over torqued, which is common on "country equipment"). Replacing the primary horzontal head WILL give you a higher quality product AND peice of mind that the knives WILL not fly out. One option is to put some 1/2" plate steel (or thicker) schrapnel plates to protect yourself

. The vertical heads LOOK to be "gib and wedge" safety heads already (can be run up to 3500 rpm or so). I still like the idea of the schrapnel covers though. I would also replace the babbit w/ high speed pillow blocks (try Reid Industrial, no relation).

I would go for it. If it were a smaller capacity I would pass on it, but the 2x12 size is a big plus. HEAVY ARN.

Ironwood

isawlogs · « **Reply #5 on:** March 26, 2009, 08:38:58 am »

Nice machine ,
Nomad ,you can see the motor in one of the pics , it is all driven with that one motor, belts do the transfer.

I would take it in a flash .

You are lucky to have it all set-up , all you will need to do is duplicate what is there , that is really awsome . That is nice that shewould like you to have it and keep it running .

They are heavy to move , it all depends on how far you are going with it . We have moved one similar to this one about a mile with a skidder , what we did was jack it up and put skids under it.

pineywoods · « **Reply #6 on:** March 26, 2009, 10:17:43 am »

I turned down one just like it a while back. I could have gotten it running, but I just don't need another project. A 55 gallon drum half full of assorted knives came with it. The bearings are babbit, not necessarily bad, keep them lubed and they last forever. Sold for $500

StorminN · « **Reply #7 on:** March 26, 2009, 11:43:52 am »

nomad,
Marcel is right, the whole thing is run off the one gas motor... power transfered via all the belts. I believe it does have babbit bearings... and somewhere along the way, someone has replaced the oil wells with pipe nipples and zirc fittings.

Reid,
There may be some others guards for this somewhere

... with the rest of the cutter knives.

I will make a point to check all the head bolts. The chip breaker on the top head is about 1/2" thick steel, my first thought when I saw that was... that's nice that it's so thick! Yes, the vertical heads aren't square, they're round six-knife. Where would I find round "safety heads" that would fit a machine like this? I've got a good machine shop close by that could modify an existing round head. BTW, The capacity might even be larger than I thought... I found a Hall & Brown 1912 catalog online, and the "No. 8" machine, which is the 12" molder, will "dress on all four sides up to 4 inches thick. Will work flooring, ceiling, novelty siding, etc. Table drops to give 12-inch opening between Top and Bottom heads."... yep, HEAVY ARN.

Marcel, I have to move it 10 miles or so. My thought is to roll it on pipes or skids onto a low trailer. Anybody want to make a guess on how much it weighs?

Thanks guys,
-Norm.

Sprucegum · « **Reply #8 on:** March 26, 2009, 02:55:30 pm »

Wow! A planer like that plus the mill! I'd just move down there and marry the gal - don't tell my wife

I don't know anything about the machine but it sure would be fun to learn.

nomad · « **Reply #9 on:** March 27, 2009, 06:08:56 am »

Oops

Sorry Norm; not sure how I missed the pic showing the motor. As to moving it, I'd try using skids too. Easier to set up than rollers, and not so prone to sinking in the dirt.

Dana · « **Reply #10 on:** March 27, 2009, 06:12:09 am »

As to moving it, didn't I see a backhoe in the background in on of the pictures?

Ironwood · « **Reply #11 on:** March 27, 2009, 06:21:44 am »

There are alot of folks converting to indexable planer heads, so keep your eye out on ebay, Craig's list and equipment dealers, the key will be getting a diameter to work close to the original diameter. The pillow blocks will alter the hieght slightly as well. You can always shim it up if you find a smaller diameter head (just gave a planer head assembly to a FF buddy in Jersey). There out there, and 12" is easy compared to a 30"+

Ironwood

StorminN · « **Reply #12 on:** March 27, 2009, 11:09:59 pm »

Thanks, guys...

Quote from: Sprucegum on March 26, 2009, 02:55:30 pm

Wow! A planer like that plus the mill! I'd just move down there and marry the gal - don't tell my wife

I'll be sure to tell the gal!

Quote from: nomad on March 27, 2009, 06:08:56 am

As to moving it, I'd try using skids too. Easier to set up than rollers, and not so prone to sinking in the dirt.

My current thought is either a low trailer, or a roll-back car carrier... I think I can find one around here that folds back at a low enough angle, and they all have a big winch on them... skid it onto the carrier, then skid it off when it gets to my place.

Quote from: Dana on March 27, 2009, 06:12:09 am

As to moving it, didn't I see a backhoe in the background in on of the pictures?

Yes, that's a JD backhoe, but it's overgrown with blackberries and hasn't run in five years or so either... it was parked with "hydraulic problems" back then (though it's a stick shift). Not a problem, though... there are a couple of working tractors still on the place, and I can bring a newer 4WD one there if need be...

Ironwood, I'll get into the heads once I get it to my place and set up. I understand... people upgrade to spiral heads and sell their old round heads. I bet you're right, 12" is easier than 30"+!... I don't plan on ever getting anything that wide! My sawmill only normally cuts 12" wide, and if have something wider than that to make flat, I bring it to work and use the 36" wide sanders we have here. Thanks for the info!

-N.

John Woodworth · « **Reply #13 on:** March 28, 2009, 04:10:35 am »

It will take you some time and effort to get it going but you will be well satisfied in the end, ran one like it a few years ago. Keep up the maintance on the babbits(they are shimmed to take up clearancs) keep your blades sharp and above all the blade sets must be balanced as a set when sharpened or they will chatter.
Down the road the babbits if you cannot find anybody to pour them can be converted to roller brgs. they do run a lot smother with cess chatter from the play in the bearings.
We ran a 350 Buick engine to power it so if the motor can't be soved don't worry about it the critical thing is to find the correct RPM for the planner eitheir by tach or belt driven governor.
Jump on it, you will never be sorry, one pass 4 sides.
You can probably get a local tow truck (hyd boom type) to pick it up to put it on a trailer for you.
Good luck.

Ironwood · « **Reply #14 on:** March 28, 2009, 06:32:32 am »

"You can probably get a local tow truck (hyd boom type) to pick it up to put it on a trailer for you."

I did that once w/ a 10,000 lb Oliver planer from a school dist. The crew used a bus tow truck to lift it onto my trailer.

That would be ONE heck of a boom, more likely a crane truck. If you go that way ask for one w/ a 15,000 lb capacity. I just got done moving an 8000lb ice truck body (for a kiln), I did not want to spend $200 to hire a roll back so I winched ( 2;1 on a Warn 8000 lb oil bath gear drive commercial) it along with some help from my 3200lb truck mounted crane. I did grease the skids (literally) as I had to get it up onto a deck over trailer. I used 14' I beams layed sideways and cribbed underneath w/ concrete blocks. I went rather well. Your "planer" is a step up in weight, and will take some doing, but figure it weighs 10,000-12,000+ lbs. at least.

Ironwood

dail_h · « **Reply #15 on:** April 07, 2009, 06:54:34 pm »

If you get a boom truck ,or a rollback,BE VERY CAREFUL how and where they,you attach straps chains cables. The frame is cast,and very unforgiving of localised stress.
JUMP ON IT

StorminN · « **Reply #16 on:** April 09, 2009, 10:32:52 am »

This particular model of molder is very heavy in the left front corner... and it looks like it took someone by surprise in the past... the casting is cracked on the bottom corner there, and there is a steel "patch" of sorts curved steel, bolted through the frame there. The cast frame is bolted to a couple of planks, maybe 3"x12"... I'm hoping to put those planks on pipe rollers and roll it onto a low trailer. I have access to some nice steel, so I'm also considering welding up a steel "cradle" for the whole thing, to which I can attach casters. That way, I'll only need to jack it up and roll the cradle underneath, and can pull on the cradle instead of the cast iron of the molder.

Anyone got any specific recommendations?

Thanks,
-Norm.

oakiemac · « **Reply #17 on:** April 09, 2009, 10:37:05 pm »

That is one cool machine. They dont make them like that no more.
Once you get it up and running let me know, I'd like to come see it.

pineywoods · « **Reply #18 on:** April 10, 2009, 09:33:05 am »

Norm, that crack and patch must have been a common fracture. the one I looked at was cracked and patched just like you described. Not likely to be the same moulder, the one I was looking at was in a pine thicket in Louisiana.

StorminN · « **Reply #19 on:** April 10, 2009, 10:20:57 am »

I will keep you all updated on the progress, and when it's up and running again, you're welcome to come take a look. I had a guy on owwm.org contact me, he's down near Portland, OR and has a few of these old molders, all are up and running down there... he invited me to come take a look, I think I will.

pineywoods, do you have pictures of the molder in Louisiana? Do you know what make it was? This Hall & Brown has been in this same spot for the last 50 years or so...

-Norm.

StorminN · « **Reply #20 on:** April 10, 2009, 10:50:17 am »

I went back the other day and took some measurements and removed one of the main head knives to get a closer look...

The main head is 12" wide, 4.45" square, and the shaft is 1.5" in diameter at the operator's end where it enters the Babbitt... the shaft is 61" long (!) overall... Ironwood, I imagine this means I would have to somehow have a separate head and side shaft if I were to replace the main head? (since I'm not going to find or want to pay for a 61" wide planer head to be machined down)

The main head knife is about 13" wide and 4-1/8" deep. The body of the knife is 3/8" steel, and it's got what looks like what started as about a 0.150" x 0.75" hardened edge welded to both the front and rear, and it's sharpened in a hollow ground manner. That one knife weighs 5.4lbs! The good news is, I have a grinder for my sawmill's teeth that will sharpen Stellite, so hopefully it will work on these. There's also the possibility that the grinder for these knives is still somewhere on the place...

The bad news is that the knife bolts have seen better days... I only removed three bolts (one knife), but of those three, two have been welded on to add material, and the other one looks tweaked and stretched... anyone out there got a source for these square head bolts? I looked on McMaster-Carr, they have something similar, but they're made for holding down pieces to work surfaces, not necessarily made for 5.4lb blades spinning at who knows how many rpm's...

-N.

pineywoods · « **Reply #21 on:** April 10, 2009, 08:15:56 pm »

Sorry Norm,no pics. it was Hall and Brown. Except for some differences in the drive belts and pulleys, it looked exactly like the pictures you posted. I came very close to acquiring the old gal, but better judgement prevailed. There was a huge assortment of knives with it, all rusted. I put them, a few at a time in a small concrete mixer filled with dry sand. they cleaned up nicely. I figured on using two gas engines for power. A horizontal shaft 20 hp to v-belt drive the upper and lower heads. Then a 20 hp vertical shaft engine to v-belt drive the side cutters plus a trans-axle from a riding mower to drive the feed rollers. It sold for scrap price to a guy from Folsom, Louisiana. Just across the lake from New Orleans. Originally it came from a commercial mill in north central Louisiana. The original power plant was a 6 cyl continental industrial engine converted to run on natural gas. No idea how old. It was in full operation when my family moved to this area in 1949.

StorminN · « **Reply #22 on:** April 10, 2009, 11:40:21 pm »

pineywoods,

Did the guy from Folsom get the knives, too? Or are they still bouncing around somewhere?

-N.

pineywoods · « **Reply #23 on:** April 11, 2009, 10:53:26 am »

Quote from: StorminN on April 10, 2009, 11:40:21 pm

pineywoods,

Did the guy from Folsom get the knives, too? Or are they still bouncing around somewhere?

-N.

Yeah, he wanted every one of them. There was shapes for just about any kind of board you can imagine..

Ironwood · « **Reply #24 on:** April 11, 2009, 06:16:23 pm »

I have seen some pretty wide heads out there. Most had 12"-20" on each side of the cutting area. The other option is to "stack" modern indexable style heads ona shaft. I HAD bought 5 piees at one of the BIG IRS sales this year, all the same diameter, length and bore. Some sorry SOB sole them off the pallet before I got there to get them, I had a very good plan, it would have made a 30+" head. I was going to use it on a jointer. I watched a local IRS sale last week online , 3 pieces 9" across went thru the roof $$$$, so no luck there. This stack of 3 would have made a 27" head. Gotta think outside the box, if you could find some cheap, you would really have something nice (good ole arn, and modern technology). Keep your eyes out. You can even stack round safety heads.

Those buggered up bolts were what I was talking about "country" usage. They look like the new old stock square head bolts I run through the forge to make them look old and nasty, got 64 pieces for my next set of bunk beds?

Ironwood

StorminN · « **Reply #25 on:** April 12, 2009, 12:53:52 pm »

Hi Ironwood,

I guess I need to take a closer look at modern planers. I didn't realize the newer heads were separate items from the shafts... if that's the case, I might already have a shaft that's long enough, and could have a friend machine it to fit the existing bearings. I would hope it wouldn't be too hard to find a 12" head to slide onto it. Do the heads normally press on, or are they splined, have a keyway, etc.?

You speak of stacking heads... when you do this, you still use one-piece knives, right? (So a 24" knife in three 8" heads)? I don't think I'll need to do this, I'm just curious.

Yes, this molder has seen much "country" usage... the more I look at it, the more I see how stuff has been tacked together "farmer" style. If I swap the bolts or the heads, I'll most likely have 24 buggered up ones I can send you...

Thanks,
-Norm.

pineywoods · « **Reply #26 on:** April 12, 2009, 07:02:03 pm »

Norm if you are serious about replacing them square heads, look at the setup on a woodmaster planer. The head is solid with a tapered hole in each end. Matchin stub shaft fits in the holes with a draw bolt to hold it in place. Simple, works well.

Ironwood · « **Reply #27 on:** April 12, 2009, 07:38:33 pm »

There are all sorts of ways to attach the multi heads, you'll just have to wait and see what you find, then machine to specs. Some are jamb nuts, others are hydrolock (grease pressure squeezes the head to the shaft).

Yes, you can run a single blade in multiple heads, stack away. Look for matched bore, dia., and # knives.

Ironwood

StorminN · « **Reply #28 on:** April 13, 2009, 09:09:54 am »

Thanks guys,

pineywoods, you just reminded me, we have a Woodmaster at work... I will check it out when I get back...

-Norm.

logwalker · « **Reply #29 on:** April 13, 2009, 09:18:04 pm »

Norm, I might have some heads that will work. PM me with diameters and shaft sizes. Joe

StorminN · « **Reply #30 on:** May 01, 2009, 02:59:33 am »

Well, I finally got into the shed next to this molder today, and saw what I have to work with... a handful of rolls and pieces of flat belting, a flat belt lacer gizmo, some clipper laces in boxes, various odds and ends of sawmill and planer / molder stuff... nuts, bolts, what looks like a couple of home-made knife setters for the molder. I forgot my camera at home... doh!

Anyway, the best news was four more side cutter heads for the molder... two are set up for tongue and groove, and two are set up for what looks like lap siding? There are two more on the molder right now, those just have straight cutters in them (I assume for S4S).

The heads set up for t&g are marked:
"The Philbrick Cutter Head."
"Pat. Aug.1, Sept. 19, 1899"
"Seattle, Wash"
(serial number?)

The other two heads are unmarked, and I haven't yet removed the heads from the molder to see if they have any identification.

I took some pics once I got home...

Philbrick cutter heads:

Four cutter head (unmarked):

Six cutter head (marked only with a serial number?):

Does anyone have any info on any of these heads? Thanks in advance...

-Norm.

StorminN · « **Reply #31 on:** July 16, 2009, 10:03:13 pm »

An update...

I got my two "good" Michigan Knife / Disston / Philbrick knives back from the knife shop. They ground them to be a consistent 3/8" thick, and sharpened them for me. They fit the top head better now.

The PO was using a super big knife projection... about 5/8"... I think he was doing this because he was using long knife bolts and thick nuts, and consequently had to have a big projection in order to clear the nuts and bolts.

I ordered one set of knife hardware from Wisconsin Knife Works, to see what it was like. At $45 a set ($26 a bolt, $16 a nut, plus washer and shipping)

, I can't afford to buy 16 or 32 sets of these, so I've been trying to source other hardware. It turns out the WKW bolt is the perfect size for the bottom head, but it's too short for the top head on my machine.

I've ordered an assortment of machine hold-down bolts... t-slot bolts, from different manufacturers. The first one, a ZIP bolt from George H Seltzer came in the other day. Here's the $3.45 Seltzer bolt on the left, and the $26 WKW bolt on the right. The Seltzer bolt is forged C-1045 steel, and can be heat treated to Grade 5. The WKW bolt is 4140 machine steel, I'm not sure what grade it's equivalent to.

I had to machine the head of the Zip bolt down a little bit to fit the t-slots properly, but for the top head, it's a better fit than the WKW bolt... here's the Zip bolt with a standard jam nut in the foreground, the WKW bolt & nut in the background. The WKW nut is 1-1/4" on the flats and 3/8" thick. The jam nut is a little smaller, 1-1/16" on the flats.

At least I can get back to an 1/8" or so projection now.

Anyone got any opinions on what sort of grade these bolts need to be? I've heard everything from "they need to be 170,000 psi tensile" (higher than Grade 8 ), to "back in 1900 when that machine was new, I'd be surprised if the original bolts were stronger than Grade 2" (about 75,000 psi). I've found t-slot bolts in everything from 75,000 psi to 150,000 psi... about $4 to $15 each for 5/8"-11 x 1-1/2" bolts.

While I'm at it, does anyone know of a source of 5/8"-11 nuts that are 1-1/4" on the flats, but only 3/8" thick? I'd rather not pay $16 per nut.

Thanks,
-Norm.

Sprucegum · « **Reply #32 on:** July 16, 2009, 11:20:57 pm »

You can saw an ordinary-thickness nut in half so that the half left is the 3/8 you need. Just lock it onto a cheap sacrificial bolt and cut right through with a hacksaw or zipcut blade. So long as you don't get it red hot the temper/tensile strength will not be affected.

StorminN · « **Reply #33 on:** July 17, 2009, 02:49:37 am »

Quote from: Sprucegum on July 16, 2009, 11:20:57 pm

You can saw an ordinary-thickness nut in half so that the half left is the 3/8 you need. Just lock it onto a cheap sacrificial bolt and cut right through with a hacksaw or zipcut blade. So long as you don't get it red hot the temper/tensile strength will not be affected.

Thanks for the tip, Sprucegum... I like that! However, I haven't been able to find reasonably-priced 5/8"-11 nuts that are 1-1/4" on the flats, no matter what the thickness... if you know of a source, let me know!

Thanks,
-Norm.

Ironwood · « **Reply #34 on:** July 20, 2009, 10:36:50 pm »

Be sure t omake yourself some protective shielding

Ironwood

News:

Author Topic: Old four sided planer (Hall & Brown) (Read 4405 times)