re-newal of boundry lines

[stonebroke]

I agree with black bear, You have to make sure you have the right rock walls. Internal rock walls  were just to keep cows in. Boundary rock walls are considered the property line though.

Stonebroke

[SwampDonkey]

It's also fun to find one line marked and painted, then walk 40 feet away from that line and find another parallel line. Then real interesting to follow one line in from a corner, then it runs out. Start searching and find another line 30 feet in and follow it to the other corner. Then, the real kicker is to follow Joe landowner the surveyor's line and it curves with the hillside, all nice and blazed and painted.

[Samuel]

That must be why I have not seen painted lines in Alberta or BC.  Not only does it seem like a waste of tax payer dollars, I have witnessed  some of the line crews in NB, and thinking back, my goodness, how inaccurate a lot of those lines must have been .  Do yourself a favour, hire a legal surveyor especially when dealing with private lands.

[Black_Bear]

I guess I should have read a little closer. Keppoch is in Nova Scotia and my earlier rant is probably comparing apples and oranges: Canadian boundary law vs. American boundary law. Both are probably rooted in English Common Law (U.S. boundary law is anyway), but I'd guess that there are many differences, especially when you start dealing with U.S. case law, which is very important to assess when determining boundary issues.

Samuel mentioned that painting lines is a waste of taxpayer dollars. That wouldn't be the case in the U.S. as most land surveying is a private, and not a governmental, job. The willingness to paint lines varies from locale to locale and state to state. We painted a lot of lines in Maine, not so many in VT. It depends on what the landowner wants, and many do not want to pay for the additional costs of blazing and painting lines.

Ed

[Paschale]

Yeah and you'll also find that there is a legal notice that their maps are not regarded as legal evidence. Mostly what you will find is a GIS map on paper or in digital form.  The evidence on the ground, especially a baseline that a 100 or more woodlots but up against is "the" line. I've seen those maps off the baseline by 100 meters in some areas.

Here is such an example.

(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)

The yellow line is the surveyed and painted line maintained by the government, which is also the baseline and the pink line is what you get from the land registration office, off by 75 meters. The landowner also owns one more lot to the NE, that's why his road goes over that pink line. So much for those who maintain the GIS.

We had this same problem up in the U.P. of Michigan, and have yet to resolve it.  A man who bought a lot across the road from land that's been in our family for 100 years had his new purchase resurveyed by a licensed surveyor.  They used GIS, or GPS, or whatever, to mark the new line, and suddenly he owns a swath of land on the opposite side of the road, which was always, and always has been the historic boundary for land purchases in the area.  Conveniently, for him, he also now "owns" our historic ice house, built by my great grandfather, with hand hewn beams, from trees felled by my ancestors.  That has made mine and my whole family's blood boil, as you can imagine, and it's still a huge battle.   

[SwampDonkey]

In this example Pascale, the government owns the land to the NW of the yellow line. But I do know that yellow line carried through and crosses the back of many woodlots that but up to it from the SE. I have seen Industrial Freehold lines change. Freehold seems to have a chance of adjusting lines a bit in a land sale. I see it all the time. But, government and Native Reservation lines are always maintained and not left to disintegrate.

There was some trouble created during the issuing of land grants. The old Indian agents sold off parcels as land grants, illegally. There has been a recent settlement on the claims of a local reservation and the government has to award land as compensation. Trouble is, whose land ? Federal of Provincial? All Federal land in NB is parks and Camp Gagetown and only add up to 2% of the land base. The Fed's are responsible for looking after the Natives, not the provincial government. Interesting.

[jrdwyer]

Paschale,

Has your new neighbor shown you the plat from the surveyor? I am not a licensed surveyor, but I have worked in the field and I do know that the interpretation of deeds can vary, thoroughness of historical research and retracement can vary, and of course throw in adverse possession which tends to also vary by state. It sounds like you need your own survey done by another licensed professional in the area.

In Indiana and many other PLSS states, the county recorder's office has corner record monuments on file. These serve as official documentation to the section corners and 1/4 corners. This is a good place to start, but be aware that section corner documents are often incomplete and additional original monuments may exist that are not recorded and/or monuments recorded may have since been destroyed. Updating these records is part of the duty of our elected county Surveyor and staff. If you happen to be in an incorporated area, then subdivision plats are also typically recorded at the county office and may even be available online for download. Finally, information about road ROW can often be obtained from the level of government responsible for that road (assuming that your road has a ROW). 

Best of luck. I hope you get your ice house back.

BTW, the Land Surveyor probably used RTK GPS on the neighbor's property. It's fast and very precise (1-2 cm horizontal) as long as there is a good view of the sky.

[Paschale]

Paschale,

Has your new neighbor shown you the plat from the surveyor? I am not a licensed surveyor, but I have worked in the field and I do know that the interpretation of deeds can vary, thoroughness of historical research and retracement can vary, and of course throw in adverse possession which tends to also vary by state. It sounds like you need your own survey done by another licensed professional in the area.

Thanks for the comment jr...this is our plan this summer, to get our own survey done by a surveyor from another county.  We found out that there are only two surveyors in the entire county where our land is--one is the county's, and the other is a free lancer, and they're both very cozy with each other.  They back each other up, and so we need to get someone from another part of the state, and fear that we may need to get a real estate lawyer involved.

That's all going to happen this summer sometime.  We'll see what happens.   

[Black_Bear]

"It is far more important to have faulty measurements on the place where the line truly exists, than an accurate measurement where the line does not exist at all."

This is a quote from an early 20th century surveyor named A.C. Mulford.

In other words, it doesn't matter if the surveyor used a $40,000 RTK system or a 1920s compass and chain to mark the line. If he/she did not perform the proper research, recover the necessary evidence, etc., then the line may not be in the correct location and the precision of the survey is irrelevant. The survey measurements may have been precise (repeatable), but the line location may not be accurate (proximity to the true location). Think about shooting a gun at a target. Your gun can consistently hit a quarter, but that quarter is 8 inches from the bulls-eye.

To simplify boundary surveying: there are 3 boundaries to recognize: the record or deed boundary, the occupation boundary, and the legal boundary. When the record line and occupation line agree then the legal boundary is often unambiguous. The problems often begin when the occupation line differs from the record line.

It sounds as though the surveyors who marked the line in question did not honor the fact that your family has occupied the land for 100 years. Did the surveyor even contact your family and discuss why your ice house is in that location? It is so hard to discuss boundary surveying on the internet because we do not have all of the information, and many laypeople simply do not understand the time and effort that goes into a legal survey. I notice you have taken action, but I would second Mr. Dwyer's suggestion and hire an independent surveyor, ASAP. And I wouldn't necessarily go with the cheapest surveyor either. Hire a professional with a good reputation. The Michigan Society of Pro. Surveyors may be able to help.

If it was my land, I'd say the lawyer can wait for now. The surveyor, after collecting the evidence (written and physical), will analyze the boundary situation and, if needed, will advise you to hire a lawyer.

Good luck, and if you can, keep us posted on the proceedings.

Ed     

[cheyenne]

Paschale...I would think even if it's proved your neighbors surveyor is right they can't touch it. It's what they call latches. If you maintain and use a piece of property for ten years and no one challenges it you own it. And there is pressident law to back it up. I would check your state property law for this. I have the same problem with a Utility Co. & their tree butchers.......Good luck to you.....Cheyenne

[olyman]

paschale. i would go to a surveyor within the state, but  a few countys away. why?? because of the "coziness" problem, cause you dont know whats going on behind closed doors, or the relationship of these survyors to the new land owner. nd it happens quite regularly anymore. been there.

[WMcGinn]

This thread has been a good read.   I've been doing some do it myself boundary identification too.  I've found some definate corners, but also found some corners that are somewhat questionable.  I've been considering getting them officially marked, and putting up a boundary fence line.   A lot of the old fences I've found don't seem to be right according to where I'm pretty sure my property lines are.
I have some official survey points I can start from.  Question, do typical North/south section line follow magnetic or true north? 

[Ron Scott]

Correct magnetic north to true north with the declination for your area.
Get a copy of the original survey notes for your property area from the county clerk's office for the original survey information.