Things that make you go Hmmm!

[Tamiam]

Now I know that I live in a very wierd state where the people with money think they are trying to help but really have no business getting involved.  I'm referring to the actors and actresses that live in the part of the state we call "the gold coast"  along the New York border.  Remember Nicole Kidman wanted to control the deer population by giving them birthcontrol.

Well I  found this sign in a lovely wooded area just down the road from LogRite. 

 



For those of you who don't live around here - Chestnut was the predominant species during the colonial period but were wiped out by blight.

Apparently, I'm not the only one who thinks this might not be the best plan of action because across the street were a couple of these signs.

 




I'm thinking 2.5 acres of chestnut does not reestablish the tree.
Clearcutting and destroying the existing ecosystem is dumb.  You know its like bringing in one animal to control a pest problem and then you just have a bigger problem with the animal you brought in. Chestnut is just not the tree in the present day ecosystem.  And the new tree of course is genetically altered to be resistant.  By trying to reestablish this tree are we just going to open ourselves to other problems. 

Any thoughts?

Tammy

[Jeff]

I think we need to try to re-establish the chestnut, but certainly not in that manor.  Seems idiotic to me.

[SwampDonkey]

I'm sure there must be something in the wording. Hmm, clear two and a half acres and plant chestnut and chestnut is restored? If it wasn't so odd, I'd laugh. Maybe it should be worded a little differently. Like "we are experimenting with possible disease resistant strains of chestnut in which we set up tests plots at various locations in the state to see how they develop and survive on a variety of sites in a long term study." Many times when these tests are done, a site is chosen that has been in pasture and abandoned or on a woodland site that has been cut as part of a long term management plan. Say a 50 acre cut that was done regardless of chestnut trees, but within it have a few groups (plots) of trees you plant for the purpose of testing to see how they survive within the natural succession of plant communities. You do this on multiple sites and plant communities. I'm thinking there is more than one test plot and the anti's across the street probably never called the contact to see what gives. Lots of unknowns by looking at a sign to take sides.  However,  I'm sure there are may sites that have been cut already that could host such a project. No need of whacking down trees for the sake of sticking a chestnut in the ground in it's place.

As a side note here, you don't go all out and plant chestnut or another species at risk in a haphazard way in huge numbers with $$millions spent and find out later they will not survive. In the case of chestnut that has been manipulated, it may survive the blight, but what about forest competition? It's kinda like writing a computer program, you fix up one part of the code, but another part of the code becomes non-functional. You introduced another bug or vulnerability. Genetic gain in tree breeding is extremely slow and expensive. It has been done with spruce for many decades and the people I have talked to on the front lines told me they have only made 3-4% genetic gain by breeding alone. But with genetic engineering the process and gains can be sped up, that is if you know the genes to target and the consequences of manipulating them. Still takes a long time and lots of quid. Furthermore, there is always someone who wants to be first.

[dewwood]

I agree that the Chestnut should be reintroduced but not by clearcutting another stand.  I believe some of the resistant trees are ones that have naturally resisted the blight and they are trying to use them for stock to replenish the specie.

[Dan_Shade]

was the stand scheduled for a clearcut regardless?

[SwampDonkey]

Since the rust and the weevil are so hard on our white pine, the forest companies plant a white pine for every so many spruce or whatever in their plantations. So if I plant 300 spruce, I plant 1 pine to. I don't know the ratio, just a for instance. That would be a way to get the chestnut on site. Just an idea. I've planted about 60,000 trees on my land and 3500 have been white pine. Trouble is there are hairy four legged critters that like to hit on pine to, so I will be lucky to see 100 survive.

[JSNH]

I spoke to someone from the American Chestnut Foundation this winter at a farming show. They have been cross breading American Chestnut with blight resistant trees from china. I think he said thet have a blight resistant one that is 1/16th china and 15/16 American. It grows as fast a poplar but is very hard and straight. he indicated seeds would be avaliable this year to ACF members that have been member for about 20 years. Next year seeds for all members the year after seeds for the public. Some of the number may be off I am not a member going by memory.
JSNH

[Tamiam]

In our town all the woodlands and small farms are being sold to developers after having been clearcut for the timber value.  Sometimes they clearcut and then no developer will take the land and the land just sits there.  These parcels would be a better use of land for reforesting with chestnut.  The parcel in question is owned by the town and is mostly unused. it is a small parcel in the middle of several residential developments.  This land is where 2 towns have their fish and game clubs.  It is a beautiful forest, small but beautiful.

What I don't understand is why they don't try to mix the chestnut in with the existing forest.

Most of CT's forest are not very old as they are reclaimed pasture land, yes which were once chestnut forest.   

[cheyenne]

Political thinking. Watch who cuts the forest and where the timber goes then you'll have your answer....Cheyenne

[Ironmower]

YOU got it, cheyenne. Maybe we need to "clearcut" some politicians first! What's it going to be like, gypsymoths and those ladybug look-a-likes that are brought here to "help" but end up being a nuisance ? Where did the "blight" come from? I see on the sign it was "introduced", But from where?       I remember back workin' in the orchards in Adams Co. PA, We had an outbreak of "fireblight" in a block of our pears. It destored a 25 acre block of  prime trees (8yr olds) in less than a month Messin' with mothernature is like flirtin' with the devil, I guess thats where the politicians come in!!!

[Dan_Shade]

the blight came in similar to the EAB.  Gypsy Moths escaped their confinement.

[Riles]

http://www.srs.fs.usda.gov/uplandhardwood/americanchestnut.htm

So did you call the contact number and ask your questions of them? We can just speculate, they have answers.

Give them credit for telling you what they're doing and trying to educate. Where's the contact information on the protesters sign?

[farmerdoug]

That is probably a pet project by the group trying to sell their trees which a exspensive.   To plant a block like that is also for propagating use also.

The American Chestnut has been reestablished in Michigan from the original trees already.  The root system of the chestnut will live for years just awaiting the right chance to sprout again.  MSU has actually has sucessfully introducted a virus from Europe the controls the blight naturally and it works.

[Tamiam]

Tomorrow there is a meeting at the property to discuss the project, Tammy and I plan on attending.
Kevin

[Wudman]

I personally would love to see the American chestnut as a viable component of the forest once more.  Here in Virginia, it was once a major part of our hardwood forests.  Virginia Tech has been one of the cooperators in the efforts to produce a blight resistant tree, and is now to the point of establishing some operational trials.

I come from an area where clearcutting is not unusual, so I personally am not affected by the emotional issue of its use.  Virginia's state owned forest are still multiple use including research.  The majority of hardwood related research is now conducted on the state forests.  In my opinion, 2.5 acres would represent a test plot....not a clearcut.  In Virginia, most of the researchers are installing their research on publicly owned land.  This is due to the fact that private land changes hands so frequently now.  Most research here used to be on industry owned lands, but those properties have changed hands so many times that it is no longer a viable option. 

Wudman

[Ron Wenrich]

I think some of you guys are going a little overboard on your statements.  All the chestnut I've seen hasn't been large enough to make any type of economic impact on anyone's wallet.  They're all pretty small, due to the blight.  There are a few isolated stands of chestnut in Michigan and Wisconsin that haven't been hit by the blight, but Connecticut isn't one of them.

I have seen some nearly pure stands of small chestnut.  They get to be about 4-6" dbh and then they die.  I have no reason to believe that a pure chestnut stand doesn't' exist or couldn't exist.  I would believe that someone had enough foresight to examine this particular area to see that there is enough chestnut sprouts to make the experiment a viable one.

There are a couple of ways they are working with chestnut at the present time.  They have been breeding American chestnut with Chinese chestnut since back in the '80s.  They now are on their 6th generation where they think they have a viable tree with 90% American characteristics and 10% Chinese, which should make the remaining tree blight resistant.  Penn State has an arboretum dedicated to growing just these types of trees.  There are lots of these orchards throughout the east.  Penn State will be releasing some of their seedlings to the state for planting in selected areas.  The Forest Service also has some that they are planting in other areas from other orchards.

When I saw the initial post, my thinking was that maybe they were going to make an orchard.  But, that makes little sense, since its not enough area and usually they just put them in an open field.

My next thought was that they were going to plant blight resistant seedlings.  But, there isn't enough currently available to plant this size of area. 

Just expecting that you can clearcut blighted species and have a blight free species emerge doesn't make any sense.  The blight spores are in the air and are widespread as well as in the rootstock. 

So, after investigating on the net, I've found that the Belding WMA is the Belding Wildlife Management Area.  Its a 282 acre property that was donated to the state.  Its a place where they have ongoing research.

Further reading has shown that there is chestnut research that involves clearcutting an area of chestnut, then spraying sprouts with a strain of virus that helps to control the blight.  They do this several times a year.  The hopes is then to plant some of the resistant trees in with these trees to expand the diversity of the gene pool.   This is hoped to expand the resistance into the native species and have a viable crop many generations from now.  This is being done by the Connecticut Ag Research Station. 

This is the first I've heard of this method.  This is basically how the current breeding system works, except they don't try to control blighted trees. 

First impressions are rarely the correct ones. 

[SwampDonkey]

My next thought was that they were going to plant blight resistant seedlings. 

That was my thought as well, with the suggestion of planting test plots. Later, depending on test results, plant a single chestnut for every so many other trees being planted, like our pine, as a way to mix it into the new forest.

[farmerdoug]

Ron,  The stand I am talking about in Michigan is blighted but has developed resistance with the help of Dr. Fulbright from MSU.

[SwampDonkey]

I'm wondering if infecting trees with virus is actually building resistance to blight in the next offspring. I don't think they have immune systems like animals. I can't see how the immunity carries forward, unless they are gene splicing and not simply applying the virus as a spray or injection. I see where Ron's explanation is the better one where they use these viral sprayed trees to breed with the resistance breed ones to diversify the gene pool.

[Ron Wenrich]

The virus they are spraying in the Connecticut experiment has to do with attacking the blight.  Here's the link for what they are doing:

http://www.angelfire.com/pa3/castanea/info/Ct_Ch_Resdoc.html

The hybrids that have been developed by the American Chestnut Foundation involved infecting the nut bearing trees with the blight.  Those that survived had resistance.  The Chinese genes are there and that leads to some of the resistance.

I remember talking to some state officials back in the '80s.  The feeling back then was that a blight resistant chestnut would develop on its own given about 400 years and the constant dieback of the least resistant individuals of the species. 

Science has allowed us to make it faster.  There was even talk about gene splicing and the insertion of frog genes. 

You have to realize that there are some old American chestnuts around that have had total resistance to the blight.  They have been the source of the nuts and pollen for the many of the chestnut orchards.  About 5 years ago they found one growing in our county.