Author Topic: Cat or JD skidder? (Read 3684 times)

PA_LOGGER · « **on:** March 01, 2009, 10:45:12 pm »

well my boss is looking at buying a new skidder and cant deside on a Cat or JD skidder we got a Cat 541 Feller and we love it, but we cant deside if we want a Cat 525c grapple or a JD 648h does anyone have experience with these two machines?

John Woodworth · « **Reply #1 on:** March 01, 2009, 11:45:33 pm »

Either one will do you fine, Cat has heavier planetaries plus your paying for the name but are a yarding fool. The one thing I didn't like about the cat I ran was the Esco grapples, too narrow a gripping face and are really misserable when the sap is running, I ended welding chain links around the inside face and then cutting the links half off to create teeth to hold the logs, have never worked with the JD grapple the others who have can help you there, I feel that it is probably a better grapple.

Maineloggerkid · « **Reply #2 on:** March 02, 2009, 04:51:01 am »

The grapple on the CATs seem smaller by far. I think the John Deere grapple is far better. Bigger, built more rugged, and it will really clamp the wood. I think the John Deere skidder also has more gears, allowing you to be more flexible with your speed and torque while under a heavy load.

PA_LOGGER · « **Reply #3 on:** March 02, 2009, 08:04:54 am »

hmm kind of a mixed review. is there a big difference between the cat 525 to the cat 535 from what i see its just HP or am i wrong. I think were going to test out both models and see what they got.

timberfaller390 · « **Reply #4 on:** March 02, 2009, 08:11:33 am »

The Deere will keep running long after the kitty CAT is asleep on the porch.

PA_LOGGER · « **Reply #5 on:** March 02, 2009, 08:38:03 am »

Quote from: timberfaller390 on March 02, 2009, 08:11:33 am

The Deere will keep running long after the kitty CAT is asleep on the porch.

is this from personal experience or you just dont like Cat? thats a big thing to say if its not true.

timberfaller390 · « **Reply #6 on:** March 02, 2009, 09:07:14 am »

Ran deere all my life. Don't have anything personal against CAT, my girlfriends dad was the area rep for CAT forestry and I saw way more CAT's in the shop than I have Deeres in my life

beenthere · « **Reply #7 on:** March 02, 2009, 09:55:32 am »

Maybe the CAT is sleeping, 'cause the work is all done. ??

Just like the slogan "Nothing runs like a Deere" can be taken two ways....

But...to each, their own. Talking up (or down) two brands of equipment is the Ford/Chevy argument or the Stihl/Husqvarna argument, or the WM/Baker, or the Lucas/Peterson. They all are good equipment and won't run good without good operators, or....they will run great and long with good operators.

Ron Scott · « **Reply #8 on:** March 02, 2009, 11:06:34 am »

Both are good machines from what I know and seen of them. A lot depends upon how they are or have been treated. Like chainsaws, always consider having a good reliable dealership nearby that can take care of any servicwe and parts need that you have in a timely manner.

PA_LOGGER · « **Reply #9 on:** March 02, 2009, 11:19:30 am »

Thanks everyone for the quick replys I talked to the boss man and he said were going to test the cat first so cant wait to try her out.

dsgsr · « **Reply #10 on:** March 02, 2009, 06:22:56 pm »

PA_LOGGER , Your boss must be optimistic about the Logging industry too be out buying a new machine?

David

thompsontimber · « **Reply #11 on:** March 02, 2009, 06:57:19 pm »

I too find it suprising to see that folks are in the market for new logging equipment....I know where there is plenty of good equipment for sale. Just stop by any logging site in this area and they will put you in business quick

As for the question, I have ran crews running both, and in my opinion the JD is a superior machine, though both are good machines. I agree with the points brought up about the grapples and see that aspect as a positive for the JD. If you do long skidding on good skid trails, the JD will be faster and the steering is a plus over the slap skid steer of the Cat. At higher speeds, the cat can be real jerky if you are bouncing along with a grip on the wheel. Perhaps they have improved the hydraulic over-ride with the steering in recent years, but in the past you weren't able to operate a dual arch very well pulling yourself out of a hole with the Cats. If you try to jack yourself out with the arch, you cannot steer. If you steer, the arch won't work. You can still come out of a hole and utilize the dual arch to its fullest with the JD. As for differences in the 525 and 535, there was quite a difference back in 2002 when we tried out the 525, 535, and 545. The 535 was the best of the bunch, plenty strong and fast and would sure outpull the 525. The 545 was a big heavy machine and ran as such. It wouldn't tackle the slopes with the 535 and felt really bulky when operating it, didn't feel nimble on the ground at all. All three were too fast in low gear. When pushing brush, to get the horses turning and kick in the torque converter in first gear, you were sailing along and plowing up stumps. At any lower speed, you didn't have the power. Those are some of the faults I found with the Cat skidders that aren't issues with the JD. Again, both options are good skidders, but if I had a choice I'd go with the 648 over the 525.

PAFaller · « **Reply #12 on:** March 02, 2009, 07:06:29 pm »

Hey, PALogger, where are you at in PA? I may know of some outfits that have both Deeres and Cat and you can talk to the owner and see which ones they like. As for me, I am cutting in front of a 515 cable machine. Its a great machine for a cable skidder, starts every day and runs like a top with over 10000 hours. However, with limited dealer support and no competition in this area, dont ever break down with one. For instance, front wheel seal requires the whole axle come out from under the machine. If you dont have a shop that can handle equipment that size on your own and you bring it to the dealer its an $8400 fix. Dont ask me how we know. Not sure what it would be on a new Deere rig, but the older G series deeres were pretty wrench friendly, i would imagine the new ones are as well.

PA_LOGGER · « **Reply #13 on:** March 02, 2009, 07:25:00 pm »

Im up in northeast PA. Thank you for finally saying about the 525 to the 535 Ive aslo read somewhere that the 535 is the best out of there 3, but wasnt real sure.

spencerhenry · « **Reply #14 on:** March 03, 2009, 09:15:50 am »

continuous rotation grapple on the JD

Maineloggerkid · « **Reply #15 on:** March 03, 2009, 05:02:00 pm »

^^^ ;)Thats the selling point for me.

logger444 · « **Reply #16 on:** March 06, 2009, 11:42:29 pm »

I have heard for years that a cat is a wolf. Cat skidders wolf down the fuel while a deere nibbles on it. Deere is supposed to be the best, then cummins, then cat.

Maineloggerkid · « **Reply #17 on:** March 07, 2009, 06:37:17 am »

When I ran grapple skidder, I used a 648GIII, and I went thru about 25-30 gallons in a 12 hour day. I don't know aobut the other skidders, so I can't make a comparison.

Dale Hatfield · « **Reply #18 on:** March 11, 2009, 12:17:01 pm »

I have had a bad run of luck with brand new cat equip. Leased new skidder it ate hydraulic pumps. Rented for the weekend brand new wheel loader fuelline fell off inside of tank ran it out of fuel. Worked 2 new Skid steers to have them consume 3 hydraulic pumps in 4 months. After all that I wont rent buy use or barrow a Cat.

John Woodworth · « **Reply #19 on:** March 11, 2009, 10:47:17 pm »

Is Cat getting it's parts from China now?

cheyenne · « **Reply #20 on:** March 11, 2009, 11:11:12 pm »

IMHO Cat is highly over rated.....Cheyenne

wi woodcutter · « **Reply #21 on:** March 11, 2009, 11:18:36 pm »

Quote from: cheyenne on March 11, 2009, 11:11:12 pm

IMHO Cat is highly over rated.....Cheyenne

You got that right! Cat is not everything they think they are. We have all Cat equipment where I work, it isn't any better than other equipment just ALOT more money. Cat goes thru fuel like crazy.

racer9 · « **Reply #22 on:** March 19, 2009, 09:40:45 pm »

I have also heard the Cat loves the fuel.

ironmule2004 · « **Reply #23 on:** March 22, 2009, 10:04:59 pm »

I prefer a John Deere but here is a pic of a Cat "with a tiger by the tail."

http://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=7778&highlight=tigercat

thompsontimber · « **Reply #24 on:** March 22, 2009, 10:18:46 pm »

You wanna try a fuel guzzler, get you that 630 Tigercat! Not to mention its much slower on the ground with that hydrostatic tranny than the Cat or the Deere...that being said, I don't doubt that the TC will out pull the Cat. However, if you really want a beast that will pull a massive load, do it fast on the ground, and sip the fuel, get yourself an 848 JD! Having experience with the 630 TC, 545 Cat, and 848 JD, I can vouche for it.

ironmule2004 · « **Reply #25 on:** March 23, 2009, 12:53:48 am »

What about the Prentice Skidders?

thompsontimber · « **Reply #26 on:** March 23, 2009, 08:44:10 am »

I've seen a few of the small Prentice skidders but never worked them or been around them in the woods. They haven't caught on too strong around here, though the majority of the loggers in this area do run Prentice knucklebooms.

arbo71 · « **Reply #27 on:** March 23, 2009, 08:58:08 am »

Quote from: John Woodworth on March 11, 2009, 10:47:17 pm

Is Cat getting it's parts from China now?

They are already yellow

Ironman · « **Reply #28 on:** April 01, 2009, 02:41:19 pm »

Well, in my opinion (and I have customers that run both because I sell used equipment), The CAT is the better option because it is simply more productive and will drag more wood to the landing with every skid. In the end, productivity is what matters and that is what CAT is designed to achieve.

I would add that CAT's powertrain is more reliable. You can be sure the CAT will give you at least 10,000 hrs without a major powertrain repair if it is properly maintained. Can you get 10k hrs out of the Deere, certainly. But the CAT will do 10k on the original engine and another 5-10k on the rebuilt engine before you have to go into the transmission. No other skidder out there will do that with any degree of consistency.

The powertrain is just built heavier in my opinion. Let me add some facts to the discussion. We sell more CAT Skidders than any other dealer in the world. We have older high hour machines and almost new 2008 model 525C's with 500 hrs, so our inventory is pretty diverse. We sell over a hundred of these machines every year. We practically never go into the transmissions on these machines. I am going on 5 years here at Ironmart and in that time I have seen maybe 3 to 5 machines total, out of 4-500 hundred that had legitimate transmission issues that required going into the transmission.

The Deere Skidder is a fine machine and don't get me wrong because I like them and they are reliable. But the 525C is just not in the same class as the 648GIII. A CAT can drag that 648GIII around the yard. Most Deere salesmen won't admit it but they just are not in the same class in terms of weight and production capability. The 525C is really more directly comparable with the 748GIII and the 535C is directly comparable to the 848GIII. The 848GIII used to be something special when it was an actual 660 Timberjack, but Deere in their infinite wisdom decided to get rid of that. So the 848GIII is now just a turned up motor on the 748GIII. The best thing that it had going for it, SWEDA Axles, I beleive are no longer available.

The 545 has no Deere equivalent and really the only machine that can work alongside the 545 is a Tigercat E620C or 630C. Those are truly impressive if you have the money to look at one of those. I love the Tigercat machines to be honest and I'm a CAT dealer. But I have to give credit where credit is due. They are making a truly impressive machine and the powertrain technology seems to be more promising in terms of fuel economy than what Deere and CAT are doing.

Jesse

www.ironmart.com

spencerhenry · « **Reply #29 on:** April 02, 2009, 10:48:30 am »

ironman, just to be clear, you are a CAT salesman right?

thompsontimber · « **Reply #30 on:** April 02, 2009, 03:24:40 pm »

I certainly won't question Ironman's expertise in equipment, as I know those folks deal in a lot of it and he should have plenty of knowledge. I also find his commentary on the 848GIII interesting and I can't say with any personal knowledge how accurate his assessment might be. However, what I can comment on with knowledge is the comparison between the 848G (which indeed is the old TJ660 which Jesse does profess to like) and the 2002 version of the 545 CAT. He says there is nothing comparible in the Deere lineup to the 545, and I firmly stand in my position that at that time, the 848 (TJ660 with JD 6081) was a superior skidder to the 545 cat. We ran the 848, 545, and 535...all 3 had 130" grapples, and each had the power to fill the grapple and pull the load. The difference was that the Deere could take the same drag and move it faster. The Cat had more horses, but failed to ever notice a lack in power requiring any more horses than the Deere had to offer. Fill it to capacity and it would drag it without a grunt. The real place where the Deere won out was on the slopes though. You could pull yourself out of a hole and utilize the dual arch fully with the 848 whereas the Cat dual arch was hardly functional at all on the slopes due to the steering completely overriding the rest of the hydraulic system. If you turn, you can't use the arch, i mean even having your hand on the steering wheel would stop the arch from functioning, any pressure at all and it was over. The 545 was a beast of a machine, yet it would be sitting on the side of the hill trying to get a grip and come out while the 848 was utilizing the arch and moving right along. Now perhaps in the flat country such a difference in functioning is a non-issue, but we don't log on flat ground and you can bet the 848 was superior to the 545, and not only that, but the 535 was superior to the 545 in working the slopes and had plenty of power to utilize that 130" grapple. All 3 machines are big skidders, but the 545 is a big machine that operates like a big machine. It runs "bulky" in the woods, and lacks the manueverability of the 848 and the 535. With the added weight, it seems to bog down and the added horses aren't sufficient to overcome that shortcoming. Where we were logging at the time we tried these machines, I believe the 535 would have outproduced the 545 and I know the 848 outproduced them both. Add to that, the fuel consumption in the JD was appreciably less than the Cat machines. We bought the JD over the Cat back in 2002 after having ran them, and we still run the JD today with no regrets. Perhaps Cat has improved on the limitations of their machine since 2002, I dunno. Perhaps, as Ironman suggests, JD has regressed in their product since 2002, dunno that either, though it doesn't seem very logical. What I do know is that if I were in the market for a used skidder, say 2002 model

, I'd be picking the JD over the Cat without hesitation.

semologger · « **Reply #31 on:** April 02, 2009, 05:13:41 pm »

Ive ran both the 525 and John deere 648s. I have a 648E now and like it. I ran a cat pulling in pulp wood and it would pull in the wood. he also had a tigercat and it would out pull the cat though. I couldnt keep up with the tigercat.

My JD hasnt let me down so far though i am cutting a bunch of big wood and been pulling 1000 foot trees. Some of the biggest trees ive got a grapple around and it dont seem to slow it down. I cant wait to get ahold of the 1500 foot trees on theis job.

Same as a ford to chevy to me as long as it gets the job done and the price is right I will take it.

spencerhenry · « **Reply #32 on:** April 03, 2009, 06:08:39 pm »

i have never run a JD, or a CAT, i have a franklin 185 which is about the size of a 748. i have a client that owns 13 Deere dealerships, obviously any machine they have is JD. last summer i was building a barn for them and had a chance to run their 332 skidsteer tire machine. i hated it, it was horribly loud, hydraulics were slow, didnt seem to have much power, overall i didnt like it. it was a like new machine with only 300 hours. it was also last summer that i bought a skidsteer of my own. i bought a mustang 2109, compared to the JD 332, it was a whole other animal, way more power, better visibility, faster travel, faster hydraulics, quiet, can run without the door on easily. the local dealer when i first started looking went on and on about how great the 332 JD was, telling me it had better power, better visibility, blah blah blah. if i had bought a JD 332 i would be *pithed. my client got rid of his tire machine and got a brand new track machine, i have run it quite a bit, and i HATE it. it is not quite as loud as the tire machine, but it is severely lacking in power, you cant run hi-flow and low flow at the same time, the joysticks are so stiff that my left forearm gets tired after about 30 minutes, visibility is not as good, rear overhang is excessive, blah blah blah. what i am saying is that the dealer really tried to sell me on a machine that in his experience is a great machine, and looks good on paper. the reality is that the machine isnt all that. my mustang isnt perfect, but i like it alot better than the JD. but then i own the mustang, and could be biased.

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Author Topic: Cat or JD skidder? (Read 3684 times)