Author Topic: Electric company shock!!! (Read 1846 times)

CLL · « **on:** February 25, 2009, 08:54:52 pm »

We are trying to get prices on all the equipment, electrical, supplies and ect. to see if its worth our time and energy to go the direction we want to go. I went to the local electric company today to find out what three phase power would cost us. There was no three phase going past the property, it was little less than 1/2 mile away. Going rate according to them is $40,000 per mile, so our cost would ONLY be $20,000.

, plus we had to guarantee them a minimum amout every month, for two years. There answer was to buy single phase motors, put a loop in and have 600A service. This is to run 2-40hp motors, 2-20hp motors, and 1-10hp and 2-5hp motors. Sorry all I could think of was to say "ARE YOU CRAZY". The man was telling me about a amish man running his sawmill off single phase,when I ask him how his bills was, he just shrugged his shoulder and said pretty high, because he was running against his 400A service.
I don't mind paying for something , but I hate to be raped because I they can do it. The longer we look the less we like what we see.

olyman · « **Reply #1 on:** February 25, 2009, 09:11:13 pm »

and guess what--you are captive to them--as they "own" that property in front of your house or business for eletrical service---also--you could hire another co to put the three phase high tension lines in--for lots less--but then theyd refuse to hook you up,and you can bet no official will help you----------have a friend 120 miles from me going thru the same thing--the rec's you own part of--but they think you are their servant---been there myself----

Justin L · « **Reply #2 on:** February 25, 2009, 09:50:38 pm »

A 40 HP three phase motor draws the same # of KW as a single phase motor.

Our power co actually charges 15% more for three phase power. That was AFTER me paying them $6000 to get from the corner of my lot to the building. Then I would have needed tranformers & other equipment so I said forget it.

A rotory phase converter would be the way to go. I have mine wired next to the main breaker box, with a three phase sub panel and conduit to each machine.

SPIKER · « **Reply #3 on:** February 25, 2009, 09:59:17 pm »

depending on what you want to do you can put in a nice 3 phase diesel genset for about 1/2 the hookup cost alone. another option is one single large inverter that will run single phase In and put out 3 phase doable but also more expensive and has some load restrictions, come with ability to fine tune motor RPM due to having frequency adjustable output.. running multiple motors would not work out quite as well at the same time.
option 3 very large rotary phase converter, also doable but may have a low leg on the load side due to the motor/rotary converter. those are your options, single phase 40 hp motors are not very efficient and will cost more in long run than going any one of the directions above.
option 4 pay the electric company...

we ran a welding fab shop for years using a 25hp rotary phase converter quite well, for the machining equipment

Mark

Bibbyman · « **Reply #4 on:** February 25, 2009, 10:28:11 pm »

Been there, didn’t do that. That’s exactly why we’re running on a rotary phase converter.

WH_Conley · « **Reply #5 on:** February 25, 2009, 10:56:56 pm »

Yeah, I asked to, $6000.00 for 600 ft, $450 a month customer charge, that is just to the pole that is already within 20' of the mill shed. From there it is up to me. Makes gas and diesel motors look cheap.

Ron Wenrich · « **Reply #6 on:** February 26, 2009, 05:45:20 am »

When we put in the new mill, we changed from a diesel drives to electric power. We have 3 phase right out in front of the mill. But, after talking to the electric company, we figured it was cheaper to put in a genset than it was to buy electric from the utility company.

Not only was the setup high (higher than the cost of the genset), but they would charge us a monthly fee whether we used it or not. I think it was about $1000. Charges for electric were higher during peak.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #7 on:** February 26, 2009, 06:08:40 am »

Kinda like going to the bank, they won't lend you $15,000 as starter money for 3 months, they want to lend you over $50,000 at 12 % over a longer term. I know, not the same but it sure is frustrating when you own 10 times that $15,000 in non depreciating assets.

Meadows Miller · « **Reply #8 on:** February 26, 2009, 07:12:03 am »

Gday

That dosnt supprise me at all Looked into shifting back into my grandfathers old 8 acre mill site in town with about 1.5 acres of shedding as an easy option for years aslong as i can keep the couple of neibours on side that i know are gonna complain about noise and dust

but ill also be lmited to 10hrs mill operation and 12 hrs of yard opperation per day and about a couple of years ago afew kids got in to the starter room and did $20 ks worth of damage to the elec soft starts and trashed the office in the treatment plant

as the main room and transformer was setup to run about 1000 hp of electric motors so its still a a cheap option in the future

as most of the costly infastructure is there and the council is onboard with the goal of seeing the site being utilised as a mill again thats why the said they will never change the zoning from Heavy industrial and plus we have got the site rent free for 2 years from the time we move in form the current owner as he just uses the site to regester his rigs out of VIC to save doing a RWC every 12 months as is required in NSW

At the moment whe are setting up about a mile up the road on a mates farm and Paul , Dad and I are looking at a planer at the moment but to buy a decent one that will runn on single phase we told paul it would be a hell of alot easeyer to just get a good used Hduty 3ph planer and a S/h genset as itll be a better quality machine

and we can just put it in the old planning shed at the mill when we finnaly shift in to the permanent site in Heathcote within the next couple of years

If We where setting up at Pauls for the long runn we woul be setting up with Gensetts anyway as to runn 3ph the 3 miles from the main hwy would be cost prohibbitive as we'd be paying for it the rest of our lives

On A Funny note heres a story of old Bowse from Dalesford that ive known for years He ran and still runs on occation the Steam Powerd Mill His Grandfather and Dad first built in the 40s

Ive even had a go on it a couple of times myself

Anyway Bowse decided to put a New Sawmill afew years back and decided to go all out and get electcity connected with the power company as they had told him it would be cheaper

Well the first bill came after he had paid the connection ,transformer bill about $40 odd k for 3 months with a heap of hiddn fees

So what did He Do instead of rinnging them first

He jumped in one of His 966 Cat Loaders took of up the logyard at Full Tilt and Whack Knocked the Pole Strait Outa the ground

Then rang em and said you need to come and fix ths little problem we got here and Dont bother reconecting Me to the gridd

You wouldnt bealive it unless you Knew the Bloke

Bowses Being Happly Running the Mill of a genset Ever Since Hes about 80 now and still Saws every day

Reguards Chris

scsmith42 · « **Reply #9 on:** February 26, 2009, 10:12:05 am »

CLL, I ran into a similar situation. I'm setting up a building to do "post processing" on QS Oak (flooring, S2S, S4S and Veneer) after it comes out of my kiln, and I needed a significant amount of 3 phase for the equipment. Utility Co wanted 30K just to run the service in, and then a large monthly min. I don't anticipate using the big equipment more than a few days a month, so the investment was not very attractive.

I opted for a used 400HP diesel generator (310 hours), which I have around 7K invested in. I'll come off of the generator with 480 and feed one panel, and step it down via a dry-pack transformer to 240 for my low voltage 3 phase.

I'm also using a 30 hp rotary phase converter on a transfer switch as an optional feed for the low voltage 3 phase panel, in case I need to use one of the smaller pieces of equipment that does not require 480.

Depending upon how much current that you need, you may want to consider a used diesel genset in lieu of a phase converter. The problem with the phase converter is that if you operate any significant sized HP equipment off of it, you'll need not only a large converter but also a large single phase service to feed it. 140HP worth of electric motors will pull a heck of a lot of power...

You could use a standard lower amperage service to provide lights, outlets, etc, and use the generator when you need to run your larger equipment.

One other observation, it's not just the electrical service that can cost big bucks. Keep your eyes out for plants that are shutting down, etc where you can purchased used electrical panels, etc. I've got around 10K worth of Square D I-line 3-phase panels, breakers and transformers in my new shop that I was able to purchase used (and remove myself) for around 2,600.00. I also purchased a lot of relatively new copper wire that also came from a plant closing for scrap value, which saved me another 10K or so.

CLL · « **Reply #10 on:** February 26, 2009, 10:55:02 pm »

I'm looking at rotary phase now, not cheap, but not $20,000 either. We could get by with being able to run 2-40hp or 2-20hp at different times to save money. Since there will only be two of us working. Pencil is sure going to have to get sharper before we go forward. Appreciate all the information though. Need to know where best place is to find the converters!!

Frickman · « **Reply #11 on:** February 26, 2009, 11:43:26 pm »

Alot of mid-size mills in my area run gensets. They have to have a fuel tank there anyway, for high lifts and such, so they just build a little building around it and a generator.

Three phase power is about a half mile away from the farm, so I run rotary phase converters too.

Larry · « **Reply #12 on:** February 27, 2009, 08:20:57 am »

Another power company “gotcha”.

To run that kind of motor load from a converter there is a very real possibility you will dim your neighbors lights when starting a motor. If that neighbor with the dimming lights complain, the power company has the right to unplug ya.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #13 on:** February 27, 2009, 08:33:49 am »

I never heard that one before. But, maybe there is a special contract with the power company with that provision in the tiny microscopic print.

ARKANSAWYER · « **Reply #14 on:** February 27, 2009, 01:07:26 pm »

When I was out at the farm I asked about running 3ph about 2 miles. Cost was $80,000 for the lines and poles. But the kicker was if some one between the highway and the farm wanted 3 ph power they would be hooked up and not have to pay me any thing for the service or the wires run. I felt like if I paid for the poles and wire then I should be paid back for the hook up. NOPE! Entergy owned the lines I paid for and could hook up others with out paying me back.
I took the $80,000 and bought 30 acres on the highway with 3ph just 300 yards from the building. They hooked me up for free and even set one more pole to raise the wires high enough to get log trucks in. My monthly bill is around $200 for the LT 70 and edger and scragg mill. My monthly bill for gas for the LT40 and edger is more then that and cuts 1/5th the wood.
Several mills around here running on diesel gen sets went under last summer when off road diesel was $4.50 a gal.
Used Army gen sets are a good deal. Most 15 and 30 kw units will pull 480 3ph and 240/208/120 single with no problem.

DanG · « **Reply #15 on:** February 27, 2009, 01:21:56 pm »

What the heck were you thinking, Arky?

You'll never qualify for a bailout doin' stuff like that!

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #16 on:** February 27, 2009, 02:20:21 pm »

Now here, I've heard the opposite. I know someone whose dad had to pay $1600 to service his new campground on the back of the farm. But anyone who bought lots on the farm they would credit the old man for the hook up of each new house. I would think that would apply to anyone, even 3 phase after the fact you paid for the initial investment. Man, sure gives a new meaning to the word 'rape'.

CLL · « **Reply #17 on:** February 27, 2009, 07:30:26 pm »

I was like Arky, its all on my shoulders. Don't matter if 10 more businesses hook up I don't get any of my $20,000 back. Let them hook it up and I'll drag on their tails. It just seems fair that if others hook up they should pay their sure.

cheyenne · « **Reply #18 on:** February 27, 2009, 08:27:58 pm »

I had 3 phase put into a building I owned. All they did was put three transformers on the pole out front & run the lines 125feet from the pole to the weatherhead. NO CHARGE...I would check with your Public Service Commission to see what the law says....Cheyenne

lonewolf · « **Reply #19 on:** February 27, 2009, 08:33:09 pm »

I worked at a sand and gravel plant for a while. Our genset blew up and they had to replace it bought a used unit from a dealer who had several used units from hospitals. Apperently they must replace them in a certain number of years. Ours was an Onan with a Cummins diesel . I think it was around 5 years old and had under 200 hrs. on it . Don't know about $$$ but may be worth checking into.

ARKANSAWYER · « **Reply #20 on:** February 28, 2009, 12:11:00 pm »

I can not get bail out money any way. I am poor, white, southern and a veteran. So four foul balls and you are out!

ellmoe · « **Reply #21 on:** February 28, 2009, 02:26:09 pm »

Arky,

You forgot, "male"!

Mark

nas · « **Reply #22 on:** March 01, 2009, 03:20:09 pm »

and you're middle aged, and you work hard. Sorry you're really out of luck

ARKANSAWYER · « **Reply #23 on:** March 02, 2009, 11:40:57 am »

Thanks guys, No better time to kick a man then when he is down.

cheyenne · « **Reply #24 on:** March 02, 2009, 07:13:32 pm »

You should rename your co. Arkey In Gumboland... AIG...That way you'll quailify for part of the $30 billion bailout they got today.

....Cheyenne

CLL · « **Reply #25 on:** March 02, 2009, 07:17:53 pm »

Cheyenne, if we had ARKY"S money we would be AIG.

Cedarman · « **Reply #26 on:** March 03, 2009, 06:57:39 am »

About 7 or 8 years ago the power company wanted to get me off my rotophase motors that we used to make 3 phase. They would have to run the wire for 2 1/2 miles , cut down a bunch of trees, set a lot of new poles. They said if I would sign a contract to use at least $50,000 worth of juice over the next 5 years they would not charge for putting it in. We were running a big diesel powered chipper that used about 15 gallons a day. So I swithced over. My electric bill runs about 1200 to 1400 per month, but we run a lot of motors plus that 100 HP hog. Mulch for 1 or 2 weeks pays the electric bill, so we came out very well. REMC makes very on the juice they sell me too. We're both happy.

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Author Topic: Electric company shock!!! (Read 1846 times)