Author Topic: Approaching Foresters (Read 2652 times)

PAFaller · « **on:** February 22, 2009, 05:42:42 pm »

Okay, so this one goes out to you guys who make your living dealing with landowners and throwing paint on trees ect. I have a degree in forest management from the University of New Hampshire, but always liked the logging and production side of things more than consulting. And in NH and Maine there was decent demand for good loggers that were neat, courteous, and reflected well on the forester. Now that I live in PA I am trying to get out on my own completely and want to work with, rather than compete against foresters for the resource. However, PA is a bit backwards in that many foresters work on commission sales and dont do as much management type work as you would think. I want to take my business in the direction of low grade harvesting and Timber Stand Improvement work being as I have really good and steady low grade markets. My question is how to approach other industry folks and convince them to give me a shot without sounding like a logger just looking for them to throw me a bone. I am sure they already get that quite a bit and I dont want to be lumped in with the run and gun sawlog guys that everyone is hesitant to deal with. I also want to cut junk timber and do a good job, so the prices are fair but certainly not going to be huge money makers for anyone involved. Am I crazy to think that its going to work talking to foresters and working together with them or would you pros be more than happy to work with a young guy who wants to put his skills and degree to work in a production harvesting setting? Thanks, Greg

Brian Beauchamp · « **Reply #1 on:** February 22, 2009, 06:02:35 pm »

Please move to Oklahoma.

Actually, I would suggest writing up a standard letter outlining the product classes you are looking for, your standards of professionalism and a few references along with a resume. Approach it as if you are looking to maximize your opportunities and build a relationship with some of the better foresters that try to take care of you by sending opportunities your way. If I had a logger like you around here, I'd keep him loaded up with work because no one else wants to do what you are looking to do.

PAFaller · « **Reply #2 on:** February 22, 2009, 06:14:17 pm »

Thanks for the tips, I will try that out. As for moving to Oklahoma thanks for the offer but us northerners dont do too well without winters filled with snow. Yes my better half and I are crazy enough to chase fish on frozen water, hike on snowshoes, ect.

Ron Scott · « **Reply #3 on:** February 22, 2009, 11:39:08 pm »

Yes, get to know and network with the professional consulting foresters, PA state foresters, USFS foresters, and industry foresters that serve the PA area you wish to find work in. Let them know your desires and credentials. Also joing the PA chapter of the Society of American Foresters may be helpful.

Ron Wenrich · « **Reply #4 on:** February 23, 2009, 05:58:47 am »

I don't think I would even try to approach any consultants with the idea of cutting low grade. Most of them work on commission, which means they aren't interested in squirting low grade timber. Most consultants will pass by any stands that don't have good quality sawlogs.

If you want, I would send them a letter stating what you are interested in and see if you get any interest. With markets being low, you might get a few inquiries.

You could get your name put on the forester's list for the areas you want to work in. You can offer services with the rest, since you have the degree. No license is required to work in the state.

You are offering something that no other consultants or mills offer. Removing the low grade, improving growth in crop trees, and improving regeneration. The only other competition is the few paper companies that work like that. Your market niche is one without much competition. It won't take long before your reputation hits the street and people will be calling you. Consultants may even steer you towards some jobs that they won't touch.

A good deal of the timber sold in PA doesn't go through consultants. Mills with their own logging crews do more work than the consultants.

PAFaller · « **Reply #5 on:** February 23, 2009, 10:44:40 pm »

Ron, I am all to aware of the way most consultants down here work. Unfortunately I get an uneasy vibe from them, not sure whether its because I am a young guy and fairly new to the area or if they are too worried about letting anyone on a tract that they have 'claimed' for themselves. I wish I was to the point that the phone was ringing but such is not the case. Part of what I have seen too is landowners that sold off a good slug of timber in one swipe and made a good deal of money. Now I want to thin the junk and still pay them a few bucks for it, and they cant understand where the value went. I try to explain the revenue aspect of proper management, but if I was truly a good salesmen I would be dealing cars, its much less easier on the body than logging!! Perhaps I need to fine tune my sales pitch. Greg

Cord-n-8R · « **Reply #6 on:** February 23, 2009, 10:55:08 pm »

PAFaller, see my post 'I REALLY need professional help'. Maybe you'd like to come to da UP... I've got 4-5' of snow (snowshoeing in the woods this time of year is what we enjoy) and the water is hard

. I'm not exactly sure what you mean by 'junk' but I'm sure I've got plenty of it.

(This is kinda tongue-in-cheek but I'm looking for a solution to my dilemma so grabbing at straws here)

Stephen Alford · « **Reply #7 on:** February 24, 2009, 08:31:58 am »

Hey PA; don't know if you have woodlot owners groups but if you have an opportunity to attend their meetings , which are usually in the evening, it will benefit you both. First hand knowledge of their experiences and concerns goes a long way. Over 90% of the land base here is privately owned,your situation may be different.

woodtroll · « **Reply #8 on:** February 24, 2009, 02:35:11 pm »

If you get a bad vibe from the consultants you need to re direct.
Contact state/county foresters, they deal with land owners too. They are not commission based, just trying to help the resource and the private owner.
It does sound like you you may have to tweak your sales pitch. You have a niche to fit in, if you do good work and you pay, it sounds like a win win.
Take decent pictures of your work, before and after, have them ready to show landowners and other clients. Sell it as good forestry, long term forestry that will benefit the next generation.
Look at forest owner groups, like tree farmer.
Forget cars, sound forestry is a lot more fun to sell.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #9 on:** February 24, 2009, 04:28:27 pm »

The paper mill companies must operate differently in PA than here, because they don't leave anything behind. Of course we don't have the quality to work with as you folks in PA do. Makes a difference I'm sure.

PAFaller · « **Reply #10 on:** February 24, 2009, 08:35:07 pm »

PA has a limited number of paper mills, and a few fiberboard or mdf mills. Of the large paper mills, one buys some of its timber locally and I hear they hit it pretty hard, but there operation is 3.5 hours from my location. The other large one relies on a few satellite chipping yards and buys most of its fiber in the form of clean sawmill chips. There are a couple outfits trying their hand at in woods chipping with flail chippers, but they too want to stay close to the mill to keep trucking costs low. My area is heating up with a pellet plant that recently opened and talk of a cogeneration facility within the next year or two. Pellet mill is good but they really prefer clean chips and especially sawdust, although they do buy and chip some roundwood. Otherwise I have to buy wood at rates that factor in the longer trucking distances to the paper mills satellite yards. Bigger jobs and higher producing crews can usually get a bonus when the mills need wood, but now is not such a time. The sawlog market is in the dumps now of course with the recession and such, so there was a push when pulp prices were holding steady to hammer that out. Now the mills are filled up and everyone is on a strict quota, so its getting rougher every day up here.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #11 on:** February 24, 2009, 09:02:34 pm »

Quote from: PAFaller on February 24, 2009, 08:35:07 pm

There are a couple outfits trying their hand at in woods chipping with flail chippers, but they too want to stay close to the mill to keep trucking costs low.

Did you mean flail debarker? Never seen a flail chipper. The only woods chippers here now are for Electric plants. When the industry pushed it in the 1980's, the wood was debarked, then chipped into vans from full trees on the yard, limbs and all. That was for the pulp mills.

stonebroke · « **Reply #12 on:** February 24, 2009, 09:24:48 pm »

There are companies that make a all in one flail debarker chipper combination. I think morbark and peterson. It is to make pulp quality chips in the woods and also increase yield. You can also run the bark and other remains though a tub grinder for hog fuel.

Stonebroke

PAFaller · « **Reply #13 on:** February 25, 2009, 08:11:55 pm »

Ya, thats what I was getting at. One hell of an expensive setup though, so no thanks on that for this guy. I think they have their place, but I dont know if thinning hardwood is it. You need to move so much wood, the few guys that do have them do a lot of reverse diameter limits, which isnt the most desirable way to manage a forest either. And its all big iron, which regardless of the operators skill will create residual damage. On top of that it seems like you would quickly find yourself being very picky about what jobs you can work. Cost of moving that equipment means the few outfits that use them cant work a job with less than 1200 tons of material. Not a whole lot of landowners have enough workable ground to fit that requirement unless you start doing some large clearcuts.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #14 on:** February 26, 2009, 04:45:57 am »

That's why everyone went broke on those setups here 20 years ago, but they were clear cutting so you can see the economics right quick.

PAFaller · « **Reply #15 on:** February 27, 2009, 09:28:49 am »

Ya, certainly have no desire to go down that road. My hope is to have a small grapple skidder and a small buncher, possibly even a haevy duty tracked skid steer with a shear head. PA runs the range of small woodlots to 10,000 acre hunt clubs, and its the small landowners that are really losing out. If its not chock full of timber nobody wants to move iron onto these smaller parcels, and if they do they just rape it. They use the reasoning that they have to cut it that hard to make it feasible. My hope is to do TSI and pulpwood thinnings for any size woodlot, by keeping overhead down and running equipment thats not so big it costs a fortune to move. Wish me luck, Greg

Stephen Alford · « **Reply #16 on:** February 28, 2009, 11:43:19 am »

Hey Greg ; your posts have a familiar ring to them. The prov/fed/private forest enhancement program ran here from 1980 till about 1996. Ran the gamit from road contruction,renewal,to stand improvement. One of the primary products produced was firewood. The most surprising variable was the shrinkage of 8'wood. Always presumed mabe 10/15% but turned out to be more in the 35% range especially on the sites that needed the work the worst. There are some pics in my gallery. Anyway wanted to wish you luck and hope you take us all on your journey.

PAFaller · « **Reply #17 on:** February 28, 2009, 07:39:26 pm »

Hey Stephen, checked out your gallery, pretty cool pics. Looks like the snow gets pretty deep in your part of the world! Anyhow, quick question thats slightly off topic. How do you like that tractor and winch setup? It looks like a pretty neat rig. Not sure I would invest in one personally but still would like to know how it works. And as for my journey into business I will keep you all posted. Thanks to Brian at USFWC for helping me out with some of the stuff mentioned above, I will be getting my name and credentials out to some of the forestry folks here this week. With any luck the low grade markets will hold out through our recession and I can find some wood to cut. Things are getting shaky though as sawmills get pickier and pickier, now what would have been a nice small sawlog is just getting thrown in the pulp pile. Doesnt take to long to fill the paper mills up with a routine like that. Wish some of the markets were a bit more stable, but this industry is always a gamble, regardless of the situation. There are also some foresters that are looking at the same thing I am, low grade wood harvesting and thinning work, so friends may become competitors before too long. I hope it all works out, thanks for the support. Greg

Stephen Alford · « **Reply #18 on:** February 28, 2009, 09:37:19 pm »

Well Greg for me it is all about flexibality and compromise. Each piece of gear is like tools in your box. A 9/16" ,1/2". 7/16" are all wrenches but different. Sometimes you can put them together and get a job done that otherwise would not. The tractor has worked great for me . It has the grapple,log trailer, scraperblade ,sawgear,winch,tiller ,snowblower.brushmower options yet quite mobile for tree removal in an urban setting. Landowners usually want work done other than in the woodlot. Being able to generate income in some fashion when out of the woodlot can go a long way during difficult times. Not to mention the one seater thing works great.

PAFaller · « **Reply #19 on:** March 01, 2009, 08:58:20 am »

Thats cool. I am looking at large skid steers for that same reason. Now that some companies make bunching heads for them, as well as the standard buckets and root rakes and that sort of thing, I think they can be a real versatile tool. One step at a time though, need to get myself a skidder first. Now is the time to buy with the economic conditions as they are, but the banks want to know you can keep it busy and make the payments. Greg

Stephen Alford · « **Reply #20 on:** March 01, 2009, 12:55:42 pm »

A friend of mine bought a skid steer with felling head. Really nice machine,actually there is one pic of it in the gallery. I have more pics someplace but I did not want to give the impression it was mine. On that particular unit visibality was bad overhead after cutting the tree. The cut tree would get hung up in the other treetops and you could not see what was happening. Sticking your head out the front to look up with dead branches falling "bad". This was a thinning application. Not damaging residuals is a challenge no matter how its done. The other issue was muck season which occurs here after late fall and before early spring. The nights are cold and keeping the rubber undercarriage clean so it does not freeze in is quite a chore. Parking on slash or burring it in snow helps but a pain none the less first thing in the am and last thing at night. Oh ya approachin foresters I got nuttin

PAFaller · « **Reply #21 on:** March 01, 2009, 06:55:50 pm »

Hey thats alright, I am guessing you deal direct with landowners. I have tried that approach and find some landowners understanding, but more often than not leary of the new kid in town. Thats why I am hoping to work with some established professionals who have clients already. Plus, working by myself its hard to be calling landowners, meeting with them, negotiating contracts, cutting and skidding fiber, finding truckers, negotiating mill prices. I understand its all part of the job, but it would be much easier if I could find some foresters with proactive landowners to get me started and build a quality reputation. One day at a time here on my end.

Stephen Alford · « **Reply #22 on:** March 02, 2009, 08:37:01 am »

Hey Greg, ya my situation is a little different from what I have read on the forum. I really enjoy the landowner interaction cause it means finding fresh malasses cookies on the seat of my truck when I come out with a twitch. For the most part contracts are still a handshake with a paw that goes half way to your elbow. What I cut during the day goes home with me at night. When the temperature starts to climb you start early and by 2pm your headin for the beech. I have been on some properties awhile so all you need are a couple of good ones a year depending on what has to be done. Generally speaking the landowners will find you once you get going. Referals are great cause that means some of the harder work is already done. I do not want to presume to know how the forester/contractor/landowner connection plays out in your area. From what I have read here on the forum there are some topnotch people in all categories. Later....

Stephen Alford · « **Reply #23 on:** March 03, 2009, 10:27:15 pm »

Thinking about your situation today and thought I might add a bit. One of the problems you may be encountering is your "to busy working to make any money". With the present conditions plus domestic requirements having money and time left to invest in a new business can be tricky. I would probably discuss my plans with your current employer so that it doesn,t come back from other sources. The possibility of buying his machine or taking over some part of the operation he doesn't want can get you started. We all sell something to somebody. So when you approach potential clients, what you have to offer is crucial. It has to be something they need or unable to do themselves. Not that I would ever do it because of tax implications but sometimes you can barter your way in. Often time is the only resource left. For example there might be an accountant that heats with wood or maybe a lawyer looking to have some wood to heat a rec room. I have even heard of saw shops and grocery stores of all places looking for wood. Hard to believe but farmers and crafts people looking for roughsawn lumber,who knew. Every person you make contact with can be considered as twelve. The ratio here for employees is five people implementing to one looking and orchestrating. I would also start a digital pic portfolio so when sending emails the opportunity to enhance exists.

Stephen.

PAFaller · « **Reply #24 on:** March 10, 2009, 09:41:41 pm »

Sooooo... I went ahead and put a letter in to over 35 consulting and forestland management professionals in PA and New York. Not so much as a 'hey got your letter we'll keep you in mind' response. I am rather disappointed. Not so much that I am giving up on the industry or anything that drastic, just trying to figure out what the beef is with consultants around here

. Am I crazy to think that there are guys in this area that would actually consider doing some low grade harvests for their clients, especially when I have sound and steady markets for pulpwood and scrag or pallet timber? I know most of the foresters here work on a commission and just love the big timber big money stuff but its not moving right now, and I was hoping that capitalizing on low grade would be a good way to go. Sorry for venting my frustrations here, just hoping there are some folks who understand!

WDH · « **Reply #25 on:** March 10, 2009, 09:44:34 pm »

Don't give up. What you are proposing has great benefit. Maybe the concept needs a little soak time since things are such a confounded mess.

Sprucegum · « **Reply #26 on:** March 10, 2009, 10:54:34 pm »

Those letters need to be followed up with a phone call " Hey its me, did ya get my letter? What did you think of it?" or something to that effect.

Then you send them another note thanking them for taking the time to talk to you.

Then you drop in to say Hi

Then...........you never stop, do you? And that's when you get the job

PAFaller · « **Reply #27 on:** March 10, 2009, 11:12:45 pm »

Ya that makes sense, just dont want to come off as an irritating PITA! When I first started this thread that was one of my concerns. I know in times such as these that foresters are probably getting calls all the time from guys looking for something to do. Most of the mills here are on quotas and/ or are laying guys off, so the phones are full of guys trying to keep their iron pulling wood. I think I stand apart because of my degree and ability to understand the forestry side of whats going on, and a focus on low vlaue timber. My markets are sound just because I spend one Saturday a month in a Professional Timber Harvesters meeting and have networked with guys from all over the state who have clued me in to what works and to things that are 'outside of the box' so to speak. I just dont want to come off as a pesky kid trying to find a handout, which shouldn't be the case but could be seen as such on a bad day.

woodtroll · « **Reply #28 on:** March 10, 2009, 11:30:36 pm »

Be a pest to the state foresters. Drop in shoot the breeze. Keep your name on their minds. just remember forestry work takes time to set up. Show case your next job, or a previous one. I mean this in two ways. Take pictures, before and after. Take people (state foresters, private land owners) out to the jobs. Maybe have them meet a client. I avoided consultants for now, they will be skeptical. It affects income sometimes and if you don't perform their reputation. if you are as smart as you sound with a forestry back ground they may be worried about losing landowners also.
Hang in there. If you are giving money for low grade they will find you.

Last thing, some people tend to think loggers moving low value stuff are more "duct tape and baling wire" operations. That is something you just need to prove wrong.

Ron Scott · « **Reply #29 on:** March 10, 2009, 11:57:47 pm »

Ditto! to what Sprucegum said.

Do the "personal follow-ups" and let them get to know you, your interests, and availablity better. The letter is an intoduction but it is often filed away without any response, especially if no references were listed.

The personal contacts and follow-up interviews will help to generate any work that might be available. Also ask to be placed on any bidders list for such work and be sure to give them a correct address and telephone number where you can be contacted.

Phorester · « **Reply #30 on:** March 22, 2009, 08:14:58 am »

There is a great need for the type of practice you are offering. It's similiar to weeding a garden to improve the growth of the garden. But we offer to mark woodlands to accomplish that here for free, and landowners still don't want to do it. We mark it, they go looking for offers, no buyers want just the junk, or they offer them such a low price that the landowners say, if it's only worth that much I'll just let'em stand. I tell them that such a thinning is not designed to make money, it's designed to improver the future value and health of their forest. But if a landowner can't get what they consider "good" money for cutting their trees, they don't want to cut them. Good forest management goes out the window if the landowner can't make a big profit on it.

Again, there is definitely a need for what you are offering. But you've got a big selling job to do to convince private landowners. There's good advice in this thread on how to approach it. I hope you fine a way to do it.

jrdwyer · « **Reply #31 on:** April 03, 2009, 11:43:05 pm »

PAFaller,

Sounds like a good plan to make a living and improve the forests at the same time.

My situation is similar to Phorester in that most of the timber buyers/loggers will not cut the junk unless there is some good stuff to go along with it.

I work on a commission basis for timber sales and obviously I like large tracts and big trees. I also work on low-value bottomland timber (gum, sycamore, wormy maple) and/or small tracts. I look at all lower value jobs from the standpoint of making a certain minimum amount per day worked. Sure it will not be as much as selling 3 veneer walnut trees per acre, but I don't have the luxury of just working on the good stuff. I never discount the value of a small job turning into other better jobs.

Best of luck.

faster1 · « **Reply #32 on:** April 11, 2009, 09:54:18 pm »

what diameter wood are you wanting to cut? the larger chip mills in NW pa want the pulp to be a minimum of 5" on the small end or it shatters in the debarker.

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Author Topic: Approaching Foresters (Read 2652 times)