Author Topic: Approaching Foresters (Read 2652 times)

PAFaller · « **on:** February 22, 2009, 05:42:42 pm »

Okay, so this one goes out to you guys who make your living dealing with landowners and throwing paint on trees ect. I have a degree in forest management from the University of New Hampshire, but always liked the logging and production side of things more than consulting. And in NH and Maine there was decent demand for good loggers that were neat, courteous, and reflected well on the forester. Now that I live in PA I am trying to get out on my own completely and want to work with, rather than compete against foresters for the resource. However, PA is a bit backwards in that many foresters work on commission sales and dont do as much management type work as you would think. I want to take my business in the direction of low grade harvesting and Timber Stand Improvement work being as I have really good and steady low grade markets. My question is how to approach other industry folks and convince them to give me a shot without sounding like a logger just looking for them to throw me a bone. I am sure they already get that quite a bit and I dont want to be lumped in with the run and gun sawlog guys that everyone is hesitant to deal with. I also want to cut junk timber and do a good job, so the prices are fair but certainly not going to be huge money makers for anyone involved. Am I crazy to think that its going to work talking to foresters and working together with them or would you pros be more than happy to work with a young guy who wants to put his skills and degree to work in a production harvesting setting? Thanks, Greg

Brian Beauchamp · « **Reply #1 on:** February 22, 2009, 06:02:35 pm »

Please move to Oklahoma.

Actually, I would suggest writing up a standard letter outlining the product classes you are looking for, your standards of professionalism and a few references along with a resume. Approach it as if you are looking to maximize your opportunities and build a relationship with some of the better foresters that try to take care of you by sending opportunities your way. If I had a logger like you around here, I'd keep him loaded up with work because no one else wants to do what you are looking to do.

PAFaller · « **Reply #2 on:** February 22, 2009, 06:14:17 pm »

Thanks for the tips, I will try that out. As for moving to Oklahoma thanks for the offer but us northerners dont do too well without winters filled with snow. Yes my better half and I are crazy enough to chase fish on frozen water, hike on snowshoes, ect.

Ron Scott · « **Reply #3 on:** February 22, 2009, 11:39:08 pm »

Yes, get to know and network with the professional consulting foresters, PA state foresters, USFS foresters, and industry foresters that serve the PA area you wish to find work in. Let them know your desires and credentials. Also joing the PA chapter of the Society of American Foresters may be helpful.

Ron Wenrich · « **Reply #4 on:** February 23, 2009, 05:58:47 am »

I don't think I would even try to approach any consultants with the idea of cutting low grade. Most of them work on commission, which means they aren't interested in squirting low grade timber. Most consultants will pass by any stands that don't have good quality sawlogs.

If you want, I would send them a letter stating what you are interested in and see if you get any interest. With markets being low, you might get a few inquiries.

You could get your name put on the forester's list for the areas you want to work in. You can offer services with the rest, since you have the degree. No license is required to work in the state.

You are offering something that no other consultants or mills offer. Removing the low grade, improving growth in crop trees, and improving regeneration. The only other competition is the few paper companies that work like that. Your market niche is one without much competition. It won't take long before your reputation hits the street and people will be calling you. Consultants may even steer you towards some jobs that they won't touch.

A good deal of the timber sold in PA doesn't go through consultants. Mills with their own logging crews do more work than the consultants.

PAFaller · « **Reply #5 on:** February 23, 2009, 10:44:40 pm »

Ron, I am all to aware of the way most consultants down here work. Unfortunately I get an uneasy vibe from them, not sure whether its because I am a young guy and fairly new to the area or if they are too worried about letting anyone on a tract that they have 'claimed' for themselves. I wish I was to the point that the phone was ringing but such is not the case. Part of what I have seen too is landowners that sold off a good slug of timber in one swipe and made a good deal of money. Now I want to thin the junk and still pay them a few bucks for it, and they cant understand where the value went. I try to explain the revenue aspect of proper management, but if I was truly a good salesmen I would be dealing cars, its much less easier on the body than logging!! Perhaps I need to fine tune my sales pitch. Greg

Cord-n-8R · « **Reply #6 on:** February 23, 2009, 10:55:08 pm »

PAFaller, see my post 'I REALLY need professional help'. Maybe you'd like to come to da UP... I've got 4-5' of snow (snowshoeing in the woods this time of year is what we enjoy) and the water is hard

. I'm not exactly sure what you mean by 'junk' but I'm sure I've got plenty of it.

(This is kinda tongue-in-cheek but I'm looking for a solution to my dilemma so grabbing at straws here)

Stephen Alford · « **Reply #7 on:** February 24, 2009, 08:31:58 am »

Hey PA; don't know if you have woodlot owners groups but if you have an opportunity to attend their meetings , which are usually in the evening, it will benefit you both. First hand knowledge of their experiences and concerns goes a long way. Over 90% of the land base here is privately owned,your situation may be different.

woodtroll · « **Reply #8 on:** February 24, 2009, 02:35:11 pm »

If you get a bad vibe from the consultants you need to re direct.
Contact state/county foresters, they deal with land owners too. They are not commission based, just trying to help the resource and the private owner.
It does sound like you you may have to tweak your sales pitch. You have a niche to fit in, if you do good work and you pay, it sounds like a win win.
Take decent pictures of your work, before and after, have them ready to show landowners and other clients. Sell it as good forestry, long term forestry that will benefit the next generation.
Look at forest owner groups, like tree farmer.
Forget cars, sound forestry is a lot more fun to sell.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #9 on:** February 24, 2009, 04:28:27 pm »

The paper mill companies must operate differently in PA than here, because they don't leave anything behind. Of course we don't have the quality to work with as you folks in PA do. Makes a difference I'm sure.

PAFaller · « **Reply #10 on:** February 24, 2009, 08:35:07 pm »

PA has a limited number of paper mills, and a few fiberboard or mdf mills. Of the large paper mills, one buys some of its timber locally and I hear they hit it pretty hard, but there operation is 3.5 hours from my location. The other large one relies on a few satellite chipping yards and buys most of its fiber in the form of clean sawmill chips. There are a couple outfits trying their hand at in woods chipping with flail chippers, but they too want to stay close to the mill to keep trucking costs low. My area is heating up with a pellet plant that recently opened and talk of a cogeneration facility within the next year or two. Pellet mill is good but they really prefer clean chips and especially sawdust, although they do buy and chip some roundwood. Otherwise I have to buy wood at rates that factor in the longer trucking distances to the paper mills satellite yards. Bigger jobs and higher producing crews can usually get a bonus when the mills need wood, but now is not such a time. The sawlog market is in the dumps now of course with the recession and such, so there was a push when pulp prices were holding steady to hammer that out. Now the mills are filled up and everyone is on a strict quota, so its getting rougher every day up here.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #11 on:** February 24, 2009, 09:02:34 pm »

Quote from: PAFaller on February 24, 2009, 08:35:07 pm

There are a couple outfits trying their hand at in woods chipping with flail chippers, but they too want to stay close to the mill to keep trucking costs low.

Did you mean flail debarker? Never seen a flail chipper. The only woods chippers here now are for Electric plants. When the industry pushed it in the 1980's, the wood was debarked, then chipped into vans from full trees on the yard, limbs and all. That was for the pulp mills.

stonebroke · « **Reply #12 on:** February 24, 2009, 09:24:48 pm »

There are companies that make a all in one flail debarker chipper combination. I think morbark and peterson. It is to make pulp quality chips in the woods and also increase yield. You can also run the bark and other remains though a tub grinder for hog fuel.

Stonebroke

PAFaller · « **Reply #13 on:** February 25, 2009, 08:11:55 pm »

Ya, thats what I was getting at. One hell of an expensive setup though, so no thanks on that for this guy. I think they have their place, but I dont know if thinning hardwood is it. You need to move so much wood, the few guys that do have them do a lot of reverse diameter limits, which isnt the most desirable way to manage a forest either. And its all big iron, which regardless of the operators skill will create residual damage. On top of that it seems like you would quickly find yourself being very picky about what jobs you can work. Cost of moving that equipment means the few outfits that use them cant work a job with less than 1200 tons of material. Not a whole lot of landowners have enough workable ground to fit that requirement unless you start doing some large clearcuts.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #14 on:** February 26, 2009, 04:45:57 am »

That's why everyone went broke on those setups here 20 years ago, but they were clear cutting so you can see the economics right quick.

PAFaller · « **Reply #15 on:** February 27, 2009, 09:28:49 am »

Ya, certainly have no desire to go down that road. My hope is to have a small grapple skidder and a small buncher, possibly even a haevy duty tracked skid steer with a shear head. PA runs the range of small woodlots to 10,000 acre hunt clubs, and its the small landowners that are really losing out. If its not chock full of timber nobody wants to move iron onto these smaller parcels, and if they do they just rape it. They use the reasoning that they have to cut it that hard to make it feasible. My hope is to do TSI and pulpwood thinnings for any size woodlot, by keeping overhead down and running equipment thats not so big it costs a fortune to move. Wish me luck, Greg

Stephen Alford · « **Reply #16 on:** February 28, 2009, 11:43:19 am »

Hey Greg ; your posts have a familiar ring to them. The prov/fed/private forest enhancement program ran here from 1980 till about 1996. Ran the gamit from road contruction,renewal,to stand improvement. One of the primary products produced was firewood. The most surprising variable was the shrinkage of 8'wood. Always presumed mabe 10/15% but turned out to be more in the 35% range especially on the sites that needed the work the worst. There are some pics in my gallery. Anyway wanted to wish you luck and hope you take us all on your journey.

PAFaller · « **Reply #17 on:** February 28, 2009, 07:39:26 pm »

Hey Stephen, checked out your gallery, pretty cool pics. Looks like the snow gets pretty deep in your part of the world! Anyhow, quick question thats slightly off topic. How do you like that tractor and winch setup? It looks like a pretty neat rig. Not sure I would invest in one personally but still would like to know how it works. And as for my journey into business I will keep you all posted. Thanks to Brian at USFWC for helping me out with some of the stuff mentioned above, I will be getting my name and credentials out to some of the forestry folks here this week. With any luck the low grade markets will hold out through our recession and I can find some wood to cut. Things are getting shaky though as sawmills get pickier and pickier, now what would have been a nice small sawlog is just getting thrown in the pulp pile. Doesnt take to long to fill the paper mills up with a routine like that. Wish some of the markets were a bit more stable, but this industry is always a gamble, regardless of the situation. There are also some foresters that are looking at the same thing I am, low grade wood harvesting and thinning work, so friends may become competitors before too long. I hope it all works out, thanks for the support. Greg

Stephen Alford · « **Reply #18 on:** February 28, 2009, 09:37:19 pm »

Well Greg for me it is all about flexibality and compromise. Each piece of gear is like tools in your box. A 9/16" ,1/2". 7/16" are all wrenches but different. Sometimes you can put them together and get a job done that otherwise would not. The tractor has worked great for me . It has the grapple,log trailer, scraperblade ,sawgear,winch,tiller ,snowblower.brushmower options yet quite mobile for tree removal in an urban setting. Landowners usually want work done other than in the woodlot. Being able to generate income in some fashion when out of the woodlot can go a long way during difficult times. Not to mention the one seater thing works great.

PAFaller · « **Reply #19 on:** March 01, 2009, 08:58:20 am »

Thats cool. I am looking at large skid steers for that same reason. Now that some companies make bunching heads for them, as well as the standard buckets and root rakes and that sort of thing, I think they can be a real versatile tool. One step at a time though, need to get myself a skidder first. Now is the time to buy with the economic conditions as they are, but the banks want to know you can keep it busy and make the payments. Greg

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Author Topic: Approaching Foresters (Read 2652 times)