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Author Topic: oak lap siding?  (Read 5521 times)

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Offline shad

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oak lap siding?
« on: February 09, 2009, 12:39:58 pm »
Hello, we are planning to use the house plans in Jack Sobon's book, Build a Classic Timber Framed House.  It calls for 1/2" x 6" lap siding. We plan to saw everything from our woodlot of mostly red oak, white oak and post oak.
Can you make lap siding from oak? If you stack and air dry it will it stay straight and not twist too bad?   

Offline ARKANSAWYER

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Re: oak lap siding?
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2009, 02:01:54 pm »

  Put it up green.  It will dry in place just as good.
ARKANSAWYER

Offline Raphael

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Re: oak lap siding?
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2009, 09:05:41 pm »

  Put it up green.  It will dry in place just as good.

Or better...  If it does sit around before going up sticker and weight it well.
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and the truth hit him like a man with no parachute.
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Offline shad

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Re: oak lap siding?
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2009, 04:16:19 pm »
Hey, thanks for the info. Out of my three choices, red oak, post oak, and white oak, which would make the best siding? Also which one would make the best flooring?

Offline Dodgy Loner

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Re: oak lap siding?
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2009, 04:31:32 pm »
I think they would all make good flooring and siding.  If it were me, though, I would use the post oak and white oak for the siding, since their heartwood is more rot-resistant, and red oak for the flooring because it's not quite as hard on your planers and shapers.
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Offline WILDSAWMILL

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Re: oak lap siding?
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2009, 06:52:33 pm »
I think they would all make good flooring and siding.  If it were me, though, I would use the post oak and white oak for the siding, since their heartwood is more rot-resistant, and red oak for the flooring because it's not quite as hard on your planers and shapers.
thats exactly my thoughts also
Kascosaw2B

Offline ljmathias

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Re: oak lap siding?
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2009, 08:49:54 pm »
I'm currently cutting siding for my MIL's little house- using denim pine and cedar with tulip poplar for the trim on the windows, doors and corners.  Just ordered 15 gallons of Woodguard from Logfinish.com and while discussing colors and what they do to various woods, was told that oak does NOT take to their product (or vice versa).  Something to think about before you invest a lot of time and/or money: make sure whatever stain and treatment you plan on using will work with the wood you want to use, maybe by trying a sample first?

Anyway, best of luck- sure wish I had a bunch of white oak to cut up: love to make stuff with it, expecially stuff made out of wood...

Lj
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Offline routestep

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Re: oak lap siding?
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2009, 08:03:45 pm »
By what method are you going to make the lap.  I did ship lap on by 14 by 24' shed using one inch hemlock. The mill couldn't cut laps so I did it myself. I had a small Dewalt table saw with a dado cutter mounted on. Rigged up a long table at waist height and started feeding boards.

Offline MbfVA

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Re: oak lap siding?
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2017, 06:41:40 pm »
 May I wake this one up after all these years 💤💤💤💤, please.

Would someone tell me how it worked out, and whether or not the siding needs to be beveled?  We also have a lot of white oak, red Oak, and miscellaneous hardwoods, 175 ac forested, on our property to use.

There doesn't seem to be total agreement on the use of green wood no matter what the use--anyone care to change their opinion on that regarding siding?

Flooring green, esp if quarter sawn?  I know there are opinions elsewhere, I just want to see if it worked out for this poster.

 Thanks, I hope someone sees this.
www.ordinary.com (really); Jim
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Offline btulloh

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Re: oak lap siding?
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2017, 11:09:05 pm »
Siding is ok green but not flooring.  Unless you like gaps in your floor.
HM126

Offline MbfVA

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Re: oak lap siding?
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2017, 03:14:27 am »
 I was afraid you'd say that.  You and Don P have been talking about me behind my back, haven't you?  Here I am trying to save green (and time) by using green, and you guys won't agreen with me.

Redeem yourself by coming over and giving us a nice review on our fried chicken. 🐓🐓🐔🐔
www.ordinary.com (really); Jim
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Offline btulloh

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Re: oak lap siding?
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2017, 10:35:31 am »
Fried chicken solves all problems.  Green floors - GOOD!  It's easy to sweep the floor when there's big gaps. 
HM126

Offline MbfVA

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Re: oak lap siding?
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2017, 12:10:50 pm »
then I would not need central vac…
www.ordinary.com (really); Jim
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Offline Crusarius

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Re: oak lap siding?
« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2017, 12:20:03 pm »
nah your doing this wrong. plumb the central vac to use the cracks in the floor. Flip a switch let it go for a few minutes shut it off. Housecleaning done.

:)
I knew what I thought I meant.

Offline MbfVA

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Re: oak lap siding?
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2017, 12:44:29 pm »
 if I made the cracks big enough, it would work in the restaurant for those truly truly obnoxious customers as well…" yes ma'am, the complaint department is downstairs".
www.ordinary.com (really); Jim
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Offline Don P

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Re: oak lap siding?
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2017, 02:16:32 pm »
At these thicknesses in red oak or poplar the boards will be ready or well on their way for siding by the time you get built, trimmed out and ready. I've tried to bend nature to my will before. with siding the sun is hitting the exposed face and drying it extremely fast. The backside is in the shade up against housewrap, moisture is escaping, sort of.  recipe for cupping, which it has done when I tried green siding. 5/8 x 6 poplar square board lap siding is pretty much the norm here. Much thicker than that and the carpenter bees begin to eye the bottom edge as room enough to tunnel into. flooring needs to finish in a kiln.

Offline MbfVA

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Re: oak lap siding?
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2017, 02:42:36 pm »
The Carpenter bees love our log cabin restaurant, that's for sure.  But our nearby house is cedar sided, and I've seen no bees there.   interesting point about the thickness.   Poplar is typically very wet when it's cut, right?  We have to stick to Cedar, or one of the oaks, all of which we have in huge abundance.
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Offline MbfVA

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Re: oak lap siding?
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2017, 02:48:02 pm »
 Want to have some fun, shoot those Carpenter bees with a BB gun. I had about a 10% success rate last time I tried, it goes up when they're in love.   They burst ever so beautifully when they're hit.
www.ordinary.com (really); Jim
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Dougherty RS3000 Tree Saw
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Offline MbfVA

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Re: oak lap siding?
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2017, 04:35:46 am »
How about Kaswell.com, their "end laid" type flooring (it's just 1 of their many products)?  Does anyone have any experience with that?

It was used in a mall near here according to that site, going to check what it looks like.

It does not appear to require tongue and groove.  Green, I'm not sure.
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Offline PA_Walnut

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Re: oak lap siding?
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2017, 07:03:52 am »
Great thread revival!  8)

About to put up a building and would like to saw my siding also.

Anyone comment on Woodmizer's attachment for this?

Thanks.
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Offline samandothers

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Re: oak lap siding?
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2017, 08:48:05 am »
I understand that Carpenter bees will not bore in Cypress either, so I have been told.

Offline btulloh

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Re: oak lap siding?
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2017, 09:07:38 am »
I've had lot's of damage to ERC from carpenter bees.  Never seen them eat cypress though.
HM126

Offline MbfVA

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Re: oak lap siding?
« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2017, 11:43:35 am »
Since they will eat right through treated lumber of any type, they must be eating without digesting, or chewing and spitting out. Paint and stain don't seem to stop them either.
www.ordinary.com (really); Jim
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Offline Magicman

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Re: oak lap siding?
« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2017, 04:13:47 pm »
Oh yes, they will definitely bore holes in Cypress.  They do not eat the wood.  "Sawdust" will be dropping from the hole as they bore and they reuse the holes year after year.
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Offline MbfVA

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Re: oak lap siding?
« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2017, 06:02:42 pm »
 I would also suggest plugging the holes after shooting some poison in them. They will reuse & expand them.
www.ordinary.com (really); Jim
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and a few more...
Did I mention, a very small bank account?

Offline MbfVA

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Re: oak lap siding?
« Reply #25 on: October 09, 2017, 03:13:19 am »
Comment on the woodmizer lap siding attachment: I have not used it but I have seen one and it is very large.  The owner commented that it requires heavy equipment to put on the sawmill bed.  It's also the most expensive of all the lap siding attachments I've seen.  The one for my Peterson is a small fraction of the cost of the WM unit, which is also a lot higher than for Norwood & some other band mills, but your mileage may vary since there are significant differences in what they can do.

 I'm not knocking its quality, just making objective observations.  I would say that the WM attachment is both the most expensive, and the most complex and probably productive looking one.  But recall that I have not used any lap siding maker.

There is a thread on this forum, possibly more than one, about doing lap siding boards without using an attachment.  It may boil down to a production/speed issue.   As with any attachment or add on, "how much are you going to use it"?

 ???  smiley_blue_bounce Kaswell type flooring comments, anyone?
www.ordinary.com (really); Jim
Always learning & questioning authority
Peterson WPF 10" Hi-Lo w/ 5' slabber
Dougherty RS3000 Tree Saw
Liebherr 621C, Bobcat A300, 430
NH TN90F, Kubota B3000
Polaris 4 seater, JD old gator
Ford/Chevy/Porsche
and a few more...
Did I mention, a very small bank account?

Offline ljmathias

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Re: oak lap siding?
« Reply #26 on: November 12, 2017, 06:32:33 am »
Funny that this blog should revive now. I've been off the forum for a couple of years, just checking in now and then, but recently started actively reading again. So I have several comments on issues raised here.

First, as to the siding I put up on several houses over the years (now four buildings total- three houses and a barn): still looks fantastic and I'm very pleased with the choice I m1ade back then. One key issue was carpenter bees which we have a lot of here in southern Mississippi. Everything I've read and experienced says that paint and/or stain plus seal will discourage them. My findings: it works about 95% of the time and is certainly better than nothing. Only had a couple places that clear seal didn't keep them out, and both were in pressure treated beams and posts- maybe the stain and clear coat didn't penetrate well? On lap siding: no indication of any holes anywhere, which says stain plus seal works.

Next question: do you need a lap siding accessory? Maybe if you have money to burn, sure, buy one. Never used one myself since I've cut all my lap siding as flat boards. Started with 1" nominal but recently dropped it to 3/4" for two reasons: more boards per log PLUS a lot lighter and easier to handle and install. Of course, drying is important and I sticker and stack to let them air dry. Not crucial if you want or need to put siding up wet but as stated above, wet boards drying in the sun will curl, maybe crack and check bad, maybe even pull away from nails/screws holding them up.

Let me load some pictures up to my folder (if I can remember how) and I'll show you some of what I'm talking about.

Lj
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Offline PC-Urban-Sawyer

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Re: oak lap siding?
« Reply #27 on: November 12, 2017, 10:37:03 am »
Good to see you back on the Forum LJ!

Herb

Offline ljmathias

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Re: oak lap siding?
« Reply #28 on: November 12, 2017, 09:07:57 pm »
Thanks, Herb; now on to a topic we all love to talk about: Carpenter Bees! Those lovely little non-stinging members of the insect world that bring such delight to anyone lucky enough to have them around... NOT!

I usually reserve the word "hate" for really evil, dastardly creatures such as fire ants that I'm standing in while I try to cut down a dead oak. But I find myself detesting these creatures that have no purpose I can fathom other than to destroy perfectly sound lumber. Sadly, they prefer wood that is in a building of some kind, not caring whether it is vertical, horizontal, or overhead. As long as they can fly up to or onto it, no piece of lumber is safe. Left unchecked, the eggs they lay hatch and fly away (to some distant corner of Hades) only to return to repeat their mother's infestation efforts.

The saddest part, and the part that really gets my goat (although my daughter has some, I actually don't) is that they don't care about the wood at all- it's not a food source, such as termites can be forgiven for enjoying, but just a place to lay their eggs. Problem is, they don't feel secure doing that unless they chew their way deep inside and tunnel far from the perfect circle of their entry point. Hate 'em! Sorry.

Pictures below show some of the damage to my pole barn- only some. They've now drilled tunnels in most of the rafters and many of the posts. I expect it to collapse any day now, releasing more hordes of newly-hatched bees that will seek new structures to destroy. And to clarify: the puffs of orange are spray-in insulation that I tried unsuccessfully to stop them from exiting; they just drill out somewhere else. And the extensive damage that looks like I tried using a chain saw to buzz them out was nature's way of doing so: woodpecker holes. Seems they can hear the lavae moving around and love the flavor.

Oh, well, there are solutions (and I really don't have time to BB gun them all, although that does sound like great fun). Turns out, you can build a "trap" that will catch them. They think they're entering an old bee tunnel but it's actually a short drill hole leading to the slippery sides of a discarded water bottle: they slide down inside never to threaten another building!

Next post will have pictures of siding that's 6 to 10 years old now and still worth looking at...

 

  

  

  

 
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Offline ljmathias

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Re: oak lap siding?
« Reply #29 on: November 12, 2017, 09:35:07 pm »
Now I'd like to respond to questions about siding. And do you need oak for this? Heavens no! Pine works great and actually looks better than just about any other wood you can mill yourself- if you stain it, that is. And why stain it? Protects the wood from decay brought on by sunlight and oxygen which not only turn pine gray and grayer over the years but cause it to rot away to nothing given enough time.

Let's start with the horse shed we built for my daughter and her husband. Oops, I mean for their horses. Couple pictures below show the two year old structure (or maybe three) from several angles. Nice thing about this kind of siding, which I saw flat, is that it's easy to make, easy to stain and put up, and then easy to clear coat to keep Carpenter Bees out (see earlier post).

 

  

 

Now my daughter's house, finished in 2012. This is the one I almost slid off the roof of while installing metal roofing and only saved myself from a 20' fall by grabbing the edge of the piece I'd just screwed down; finger working again, barely, after re-attaching muscles...

Several views of her siding, front, side and back of house. Not been touched since we stained it, put it up wet from stain, waited a month and then put on clear coat that is uv safe. Still looks great, to my mind.

 

  

  

 

Now on to my son's house next door, completed about 10 years ago. Same story here: still looks great after stain plus clear coat, even in the side with some direct sunlight. The red color in one of these is not the real color- took picture in the late afternoon with sun behind me, must have fooled the camera...

 

  

  

 

Now the latest efforts: we're building a house on the property for my other daughter. She's the oldest but it took her a while to see the wisdom of living nearby. Not wisdom for her, necessarily, but for me and the wife so we can know they're nearby in case of hurricanes and such. The boards you see were cut from a mix of older logs I'd stored in the pole barn (that the carpenter bees hadn't totally devoured) and some newer ones. Fresh cut lumber from fresh downed trees work best if you want clear, bright color. You have to sticker and stack with good air flow for air drying. Leave a month or so and they're ready to serve.

Two years ago I bought another trailer (which my wife was against but it came under the "easier to apologize for than ask permission" mode of operation I often use). I really did need it for something I can't remember now, along with lots of other things... Anyway, I had stacked the boards hot off the mill onto one of the trailers. We used the other to cart lumber over to the building site for footing forms and walls, and then for metal roofing (which we just finished installing yesterday). Brought that trailer back next to the first one for transfer: pulled boards from the top of the stack, stained them, restacked them on the other trailer. Worked great, and gave us the opportunity to find the best color boards for the front of the house. Once we had enough of those, hauled that trailer over to the building site for installation this week. I'll post pictures of the (shall we say "unique") combination of rusted tin and live-edge siding they wanted.

Enough for now- got to sleep some.

LJ

 

  

 
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Offline fishfighter

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Re: oak lap siding?
« Reply #30 on: November 15, 2017, 06:04:51 am »
On my sawmill shack, I used water oak live edge. Some was installed at the beginning of the summer. Sun has hit it hard that turned it a nice gray. The boards were full cut from logs.

 

 

What I found out about using these boards and installing them wet is that the boards that came off the log close to center of the log checked. :( Now the boards that came off a good 4" away from the center didn't check. ;D No problem with the boards cupping. Used ring nails that are not pulling out.

 

 

Finished building that I am waiting for the eves to dry/gray out before I treat them.

 

 

Another trick I found out is that by taking two cuts per side and flipping the log over helped a lot.

Offline ljmathias

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Re: oak lap siding?
« Reply #31 on: November 15, 2017, 07:09:52 am »
Look great if you like grey. If you stain, it will protect the wood better from uv and keep color longer- just saying... plus if you have carpenter bees, they might find your boards very tasty.

Any advantage to using valuable oak for siding? Pine seems to work fine if stained and sealed (at least down here in Mississippi) and I use the oak I do have (not enough) for furniture and interior stuff. It's not look these are renewable resources or anything   :D

LJ
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Offline fishfighter

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Re: oak lap siding?
« Reply #32 on: November 16, 2017, 07:56:03 am »
I will be treating it once everything matches. ;D Reason I use oak is that is all I have growing on my place. There is no pine at all. I have over 200ac of timber I can cut from. All bottom land off the Mississippi river. I do have cypress, but that is some what a no no to fell. My granddad would roll over in his grave if I fell one tree. :D

Offline Magicman

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Re: oak lap siding?
« Reply #33 on: November 16, 2017, 09:39:14 am »
It's so good to see you finally come up for air lJ.  Now please don't be a stranger.   :)
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Offline PA_Walnut

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Re: oak lap siding?
« Reply #34 on: November 17, 2017, 05:00:10 am »
About to saw some siding for a building I'm putting up. Any comments about poplar for siding? I have plenty of it and it's ready to cut.
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Offline ljmathias

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Re: oak lap siding?
« Reply #35 on: November 17, 2017, 06:18:27 am »
Poplar has pros and cons, in my book. It's natural colors aren't all that pleasing to me, from white to pink and green to dark brown. Now the heart wood is fantastic, a beautiful chocolate brown that looks great without stain and just a clear coat to protect it. It's soft so you need something. I have a couple of desks made from poplar heart wood (100 year old tree my neighbor cut down- all but outer 2 inches of 40 inch diameter trunk). The desks look great and my wife and grandkids use them everyday.

I don't know about weathering-someone else can jump in on that. I do know it's pretty soft till it dries completely, then it's pretty hard. I use it often for trim around windows and doors on houses that I put live-edge pine on. 2X2 or bigger, stained with dark walnut and clear coat on top. Looks great, I think.

LJ
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Offline Don P

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Re: oak lap siding?
« Reply #36 on: November 17, 2017, 08:04:23 am »
It is the most common lap siding here on old houses, 5/8x6. I've taken it off at ~100 years old and it looks like upside down bevel lap siding, the lower edge worn to almost a point. Those houses didn't get painted till much later, if at all. I think the good old heavy bodied lead paints did a good job blocking out carpenter bees. I used Kilz primer on the last job and they looked but I didn't see any bore. Poplar is a great paint grade or staining wood. A good finish man can make you think it is any of a number of woods. I have one embarrassing fascia I need to go repair. I used poplar for fascia behind a gutter that leaked. The gutter fell and the bottom of the fascia is gone, I think about 15 years. They wanted traditional galvy gutters which lasted about that long. White oak this time round, and a better gutter!

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Re: oak lap siding?
« Reply #37 on: November 17, 2017, 08:50:08 am »
In my "neck of the woods" Tulip Poplar is very commonly used as Board & Batten siding.  I have sawn many thousands of bf for B&B, but never for lap siding.
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Offline ljmathias

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Re: oak lap siding?
« Reply #38 on: November 17, 2017, 10:25:12 am »
So, MM, good to be back, hopefully for a long while.

Still the question of how the siding you sawed from poplar was finished: nothing? stain only? clear coat only? paint? Any idea that might help our questioner?

Making progress on my daughter's house- pictures to follow of siding I showed before installed on the front of the house...

LJ
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Re: oak lap siding?
« Reply #39 on: November 17, 2017, 01:46:31 pm »
No finish, just bare Poplar.
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Offline ljmathias

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Re: oak lap siding?
« Reply #40 on: November 19, 2017, 07:46:19 am »
Been busy putting up more siding and trim on the new house. Wide boards are great to put up, and using 3/4" rather than 1" thick makes them a whole lot easier to handle. That plus letting the stain dry before handling is a real plus- no wet hands and sticky tapes, drills and driver handles.

Here's a couple shots of siding my other SIL helped me get started on- he and I did the first row with cut outs for windows, then he was off to home. Next day I put up the rest. You'll notice the "character rich" tin on the bottom. Daughter and SIL decided they liked that look, seeing it on a restaurant they visited, so they bought some used tin (really?) and we cut it to 30" with a jig and metal saw on my circular saw. What a racket! And pieces of burning hot metal flying every which way. At least we were mostly safe with goggles and ear protection but no gloves (which cost me part of fingernail: will I ever learn?)

 

  

 

Two things to keep in mind on lap siding (as if you didn't already know this). First, make sure you use the same width board for any given row going across (learned this the hard way on my first house- seems obvious but hey, why should I stay with the obvious when I can make interesting mistakes?). Second, plan as much as you can to have the row that goes up to just above the tops of the windows and doors be just enough for the lap of the row above. This eliminates the need to cut out for the tops of doors and windows. How do I know this? Hah, trial and error again...

Just a note on labor: I put up some of the low hanging siding alone like the front of the house pictured above- as long as you have a ladder top to balance it on, it can be done without too much strain (arm still not healed fully). Two people make it safer, faster and give better fit. Three people? Wow, what a difference! Yesterday, I was cut man on the ground, son-in-law and his friend on scaffolding measuring and putting up. Got most of the lap siding up on the end (picture tomorrow- keep forgetting the camera).

Oh, an aside on flooring. They decided to not put in tile, wood or carpet what with several dogs and cats and desire to keep things cleaner. So the bedroom, closet and bath on one end have concrete floors stained (twice to get it dark enough) followed by two coats of urethane seal: shiny and bright. Hope it doesn't sweat. Other end of the house bedrooms and bath will have garage-type epoxy (SIL likes to think he thinks outside the box; at least it will be functional if not warm.) Picture below is of the stained and sealed side.
 

 

Going to put ledger trim on top of the lap siding for the board and batten gable siding to sit on. Got that cut and stained yesterday afternoon out of a fully dried Katrina beam that had been sitting under my unusable car port since way back. Turned out nice. We'll put those up today after we finish the lap siding on the north end of the house. Then I'll cut the board and batten from a couple other air dried (for what, 11 years?) Katrina beams just waiting for someone to love them up and use them right... Sorry, too much coffee already.

LJ
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Offline MbfVA

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Re: oak lap siding?
« Reply #41 on: November 20, 2017, 02:49:53 am »
Jumping back to poplar & log cabins, ours is mostly poplar logs and then poplar slabs where framed construction took over (ah, the many stages of historic log cabin construction).  The logs & slabs all have (latex, but oily smelling, "Blacksote" fence paint?) stain, but that does not stop the carpenter bees.

What does seriously slow them down is spraying some malathion into the holes one by one.  Yes, tough to reach some places.  It's effective and inexpensive compared to Raid, etc. Watch the very unhappy momma bees drop out and fly off to croak, then just in case spray more.  Then when it dries a bit, plug each one with cheap caulk (hint: it works and won't make an orange mess).  No reuse possible, and any larvae left behind will return to nature.

Malathion stinks but it works.  Don't drink it or get too much on you, or you'll bee sorry.

And kill survivors randomly any time you can.  They swat beautifully (out of the air) & relatively easily, especially when in luv.  Almost as much fun as using a Crosman.
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Re: oak lap siding?
« Reply #42 on: November 20, 2017, 02:59:50 am »
To LJ (I think), thanks for the epoxy floor idea, out of the box can be good.  We have a cat (over 18; we once had 10 or so), and given the damage their pee can do, an impervious floor could be the best idea yet.

My BIL tore his biceps muscle from its tendon by grabbing a handrail as he fell.  Windowshade problem, solved by a good surgeon.  He also had a widow maker tree shatter his left shoulder in more than 10 places after he bumped it with a JD 5400 class tractor.  Broke his hip most recently, fell backwards off some boat scaffolding (they have a sort of house boat they are working on).  It's a wonder he is alive, frankly.  But otherwise he is one fit man.  Still, amazingly.
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NH TN90F, Kubota B3000
Polaris 4 seater, JD old gator
Ford/Chevy/Porsche
and a few more...
Did I mention, a very small bank account?

Offline PA_Walnut

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Re: oak lap siding?
« Reply #43 on: November 20, 2017, 05:55:23 am »
MbfVA, it sounds like you should stay WAY clear of your BIL when doing projects. He's possibly prone to a lightning strike or an alien landing event.  :o :D
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Offline thecfarm

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Re: oak lap siding?
« Reply #44 on: November 20, 2017, 05:59:55 am »
I see there is a good overhang. I wonder if that restaurant did not have a good overhang,than they put the tin up,after the sliding started to rot. ;)
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