Author Topic: Standby power: propane versus diesel? (Read 3362 times)

LeeB · « **on:** February 03, 2009, 02:29:26 am »

What's the pros and cons here. I'm gonna get a standby generator. The power goes out for long spell around my place way to often to rely on my little gas job. Which ya'll think is best.

stonebroke · « **Reply #1 on:** February 03, 2009, 04:05:27 am »

In the North propane is better because the fuel will not gell no matter what.

Stonebroke

Norm · « **Reply #2 on:** February 03, 2009, 06:58:22 am »

I looked long and hard at them after our last ice storm and decided propane was the way to go. Unfortunately I still have not bought one.

submarinesailor · « **Reply #3 on:** February 03, 2009, 07:03:06 am »

It depends on if you are looking for life cycle cost or just the short term costs. In the long run, taking into consideration the maintenance and fuel treatment cost, propane could be the cheaper. You can just let propane sit in the tank for many years and it is still good to go. You can’t do that with diesel. Also, there is very little injector/carburetor maintenance. And the engine oil stays a lot cleaner.

If you want very high reliability with diesel fuel, you ready should drain it, run it thru a dryer and add some treatment to it each year. We, the DESC Energy Support Center, have had major boiler plants on military installations go down big time because they did not take care of their #2 oil.

Lee, it sounds like you are looking at a backup generator for the house (Lindy)

I have been doing a lot of research into backups and it looks to me like the Guardian/Generac series gives the best deal around – automatic switch gear is included in some of their packages. I hope to pickup and install a 17KW propane this summer. Any of you other guys have good or bad things to say about them?

Bruce

pineywoods · « **Reply #4 on:** February 03, 2009, 08:14:36 am »

Propane is probably the best all things considered. It does have one drawback, especially for you guys in the far frigid north. Like gasoline and diesel, propane has different formulations depending on the season. Fill your tank with the summer blend, and you may be in trouble when the temp turns cold enough. Propane won't vaporize or "boil off" below a certain temp. That critical temp varies depending on the blend. I've seen a few cases where it was necessary to heat the tank....carefully

Best bet if you have it is natural gas......

WH_Conley · « **Reply #5 on:** February 03, 2009, 08:30:19 am »

The guy that owns the little store down the road put in propane. Knowing him he looked at all the pro's and con's, was talking about it for a few months. His parents live just behind the store and he tied into their tank, has automatic switching gear.

stonebroke · « **Reply #6 on:** February 03, 2009, 08:34:25 am »

Pineywoods
the best way to solve that is to put the propane tank underground.

Stonebroke

beenthere · « **Reply #7 on:** February 03, 2009, 09:43:18 am »

Quote from: pineywoods on February 03, 2009, 08:14:36 am

Propane is probably the best all things considered. It does have one drawback, especially for you guys in the far frigid north. Like gasoline and diesel, propane has different formulations depending on the season. Fill your tank with the summer blend, and you may be in trouble when the temp turns cold enough. ..........

First I've ever heard that propane has different forumulations, as we get fills year-around up 'nort, independent of time-of-year.
Do you know of where more information about this can be found? I'd like to confirm if it is true.

sawguy21 · « **Reply #8 on:** February 03, 2009, 10:02:18 am »

Most of the units we sell run on NG, they are also set up for propane if required. NG is very clean and convenient, maintenance is limited to annual oil changes and air filter replacement.
Diesel would be the way to go if propane or NG is not readily available but as was mentioned, the fuel system must be kept clean. Otherwise, algae and water will accumulate.
The Guardian units are reasonably priced but our experience has been that they require more frequent service calls. Hard starting and the switching are the usual complaints. The cabinets have been flimsy but they appear to be addressing that.
The biggest issue is finding a knowledgeable service dealer, a lot of retailers really do not know how to set up and maintain them. The big box stores are the worst.

renegadecj · « **Reply #9 on:** February 03, 2009, 10:17:33 am »

I'm looking at the same thing...backup power for power outages, but also wanted something that would run in case of a national emergency. We have natural gas, but a friend who who works for xcel energy said not to depend on the flow of gas in case of emergency. I own a couple of 100# propane tanks which would work just fine. How long can a generator run on a propane tank?

Where is the best place to buy a backup generator?

Gary_C · « **Reply #10 on:** February 03, 2009, 11:12:09 am »

Back in the 1990's I went thru an ice storm that knocked out power for almost two weeks and we depended on a 55 kw pto generator for all that time. Afterwards I decided to look into getting a stationary generator for standby power as we were milking cows and standby power was a must.

I found a surplus generator for sale that I thought was just right for what I needed and the price was right. It also was a very interesting unit and I was ready to buy that generator. It was only about $3000 if I remember right and it was a Solar brand gas turbine generator that was formerly in one of the tunnels on the Pennsylvannia Turnpike for emergency lighting and was replaced by a new generator.

But before I bought that generator, I had the salvage company send me the specs. As it turned out, that gas turbine would consume anywhere from 8 to 32 gallons per hour of diesel and that meant it would burn between 200 and 600 gallons of diesel per day.

Needless to say, I still have that pto powered generator. With a 130 hp tractor running all day even that would consume 60 to 70 gallons per day.

So if you are looking at a standby generator, look closely at the fuel consumption and consider how much storage is needed. Those numbers are available, but not easily found unless you look. Problem is those numbers do not sell generators. Plus you have to maintain and exercise those generators regularly or they will not work when you need them. That's one thing for a large company with a maintenance staff to do, but for the rest of us it is just another project that probably will not get done.

And many of those large businesses that must have standby generators have them connected to natural gas. Small propane tanks will not work, they will freeze up as the NER (normal evaporation rate) is not nearly high enough. You need a vaporizer.

Larry · « **Reply #11 on:** February 03, 2009, 01:30:03 pm »

When I worked for the telephone company we had gas onan generators on the repair trucks, propane on all power carts for underground work, and big diesels for central office backups. By far the propane units were the most reliable with zero maintenance. The diesels were just as reliable but maintenance was required on a monthly basis to insure this reliability.

You might watch for a generator from a chicken house...they are too small to run the new chicken houses and have been selling on the cheap. There were several adds on craigslist this week for them...of course they were asking a premium. As soon as we get power back I going to do some serious scouting for one...if I turn up two I’ll send ya a PM.

Ironwood · « **Reply #12 on:** February 03, 2009, 01:40:36 pm »

I'll be keeping an eye out on this post,as eventually I'd like to have a unit here (10kw or so)

Ironwood

WoodMiller · « **Reply #13 on:** February 03, 2009, 01:43:13 pm »

I have a Generac 15KW propane standby generator and it has been very reliable - biggest maintenance issue was to remember to check the battery water when we changed the oil. The battery is on a trickle charger and can lose water over the year. Didn't discover this until the battery blew up. The other issue we had was our propane supplier. They "don't do generators" (propane ads notwithstanding). Had to buy the tank (already had one 100 gallon tank, wanted another).........

Wayne

Sprucegum · « **Reply #14 on:** February 03, 2009, 02:22:16 pm »

In my experience propane didn't jell till temp got down to -20 or -15 with a wind. A little skirt around the tank and a pan full of charcoal briquets gets you going again. If you're going with it get a decent sized tank- 500 gal. - and be happy no matter how long the lines are down.

submarinesailor · « **Reply #15 on:** February 03, 2009, 02:33:48 pm »

If I remember the numbers correctly, the 17KW Guardian consumes about 2.56 gals of propane per hour at full load. With a 250 gal tank full to 80%, that’s about 78 hours of full load. I think it drops to about 1.6 at 50% load or 125 hours.

Bruce

Mr Mom · « **Reply #16 on:** February 03, 2009, 04:37:16 pm »

I have thought about this and can get a 1000 gal tank from my dad.
Just doing research now.
Will be watching this post.
Thanks Alot Mr Mom

Radar67 · « **Reply #17 on:** February 03, 2009, 04:43:56 pm »

There is an article in Mother Earth News this month that address emergency power. Propane is recommended in the article because it will not go bad from sitting around for years, it is not in high demand like gasoline and diesel during emergencies, and you can store large quantities in fairly small spaces.

Someone mentioned a national emergency and not being able to get propane or natural gas, in that senario, I would prefer a diesel powered generator. You can always filter and burn your used cooking oil, and if needed, make your own by rendering parts the game animals you will have to be using to survive or the oil from parked cars.

beenthere · « **Reply #18 on:** February 03, 2009, 04:46:05 pm »

Quote from: Sprucegum on February 03, 2009, 02:22:16 pm

In my experience propane didn't jell till temp got down to -20 or -15 with a wind. A little skirt around the tank and a pan full of charcoal briquets gets you going again. If you're going with it get a decent sized tank- 500 gal. - and be happy no matter how long the lines are down.

Would't think wind chill would affect an "object" like a propane tank, or could it?
No problem around here with propane and -30° F temps. But you've got me wondering...

Larry · « **Reply #19 on:** February 03, 2009, 06:07:05 pm »

Quote from: Radar67 on February 03, 2009, 04:43:56 pm

Propane is recommended in the article because it will not go bad from sitting around for years, it is not in high demand like gasoline and diesel during emergencies, and you can store large quantities in fairly small spaces.

The day after the ice storm propane vanished...and you could not get tanks re-filled or find pre-filled tanks. People use the small tanks for cooking and ventless space heaters. I had two 30 pound tanks that I lent out just for that pupose.

pineywoods · « **Reply #20 on:** February 03, 2009, 06:27:33 pm »

Woodmiller I have also run into the "we don't do generators" problem. My supplier will gladly fill the 250 gallon tank I rent from them, but absolutely refuse to fill the 30 gallon tank welded to the frame on my motorhome. Other than capacity, the 2 tanks are identical...The genset on the motorhome is propane. They also won't fill my grill bottles from their delivery truck... The local phone company changed out their small gensets from diesel to propane to cut down on maintenance. First time the power went out for 24 hours, they found out the propane supplier wouldn't refill their tanks either.

Polly · « **Reply #21 on:** February 03, 2009, 07:44:01 pm »

i bought a honda with gas engine wish i had bought a pto unit i already had a jd diesel tactor you might say i goofed

Ironwood · « **Reply #22 on:** February 03, 2009, 08:16:12 pm »

I am hoping for a gas well supply for my NG/ generator needs. We will know for sure by summer if the well is a go. They just punched a spud (vertical ) well on the folks up the street, if it continues to hold pressure and produce they'll be here in there next drill cycle. I had no idea the consumption needs of a medium generator was so great. It would be tough and costly to get enough fuel for a serious national disaster lasting many weeks. I guess the strategy would be to run it as needed for pumping water (175' well here ) and other necesseties. The well is our biggest shortcoming during outages. I do have some catchment options, but the rain would need to be "safe" $:-\$ . I have no heat worries, as I can always burn my inventory to stay warm in our little effiecent house.

That would be expensive heat!!!

Ironwood

farmerdoug · « **Reply #23 on:** February 03, 2009, 10:01:39 pm »

Beenthere,

The problem is gas companies like to cheat in the warmer months with Butane. They either mix it or run it straight in the summer in the north or all year down south. Butane will not vaporize good below 20°F, just try leaving a lighter out in the cold. There are other -anes that are used for fuel also. They just ones that liquidfy easily. Of course they all do not have the same heating value but are close though.

Gary_C · « **Reply #24 on:** February 03, 2009, 11:25:43 pm »

Propane has a boiling point of around -42 deg F. That means that propane will not vaporize below that temperature. However that is misleading because if you draw the liquid or vapors too fast from your tank, it will still freeze at temperatures higher than -42 F.

For things like engines that draw large amounts of liquid propane, you must have large enough lines so the pressure drops very little and then feed the liquid into a vaporizer. For smaller appliances like furnaces and hot water heaters, it is best to have a large tank as it will act like a large heat exchanger to keep the vapors flowing. However when the liquid changes to vapor in the tank, it cools and can freeze at temperatures above the boiling point. IT generally will work OK till you get to about -30 F and then it's time to worry.

scsmith42 · « **Reply #25 on:** February 04, 2009, 12:15:04 am »

Quote from: Radar67 on February 03, 2009, 04:43:56 pm

There is an article in Mother Earth News this month that address emergency power. Propane is recommended in the article because it will not go bad from sitting around for years, it is not in high demand like gasoline and diesel during emergencies, and you can store large quantities in fairly small spaces.

Someone mentioned a national emergency and not being able to get propane or natural gas, in that senario, I would prefer a diesel powered generator.

+1.

I have propane, gasoline, and diesel generators, and at one time was responsible for a generator R&D program for a large telecom company.

Benefits of propane have already been stated - fuel does not go bad and the reliability is high. The biggest drawback is that in the instance of a multi-day outage, you cannot easily have your tank refilled.

Many multi-day electrical outages are usually caused by ice storms that knock out the power line infrastructure. If you live in an area that's subject to ice storms, consider either a very large fuel tank or an alternative (such as diesel).

I have a 5KW Onan propane genset hooked up on an automatic transfer switch for my house. It carries the well, the electic fences, and the basics inside the house (kitchen, furnace, bathroom and TV/bedroom fan and lights). A 100 gallon tank is good for about 3.5 days. I have obtained a 500 gallon burried tank to add to the system, and plan to do so sometime this year. That should provide me with 2 weeks of capacity. The ATS makes it nice in case I'm not around when the power goes out - it comes on and switches over automatically for the Doc. It's also nice because the generator is automatically exercised each week.

As a secondary plan, I use a Miller Trailblazer Pro diesel welder with 70 gallons of total fuel. The generator puts out 12KW, enough to run the AC, and because I use it for other farm related projects the fuel stays relatively fresh. If I know that a storm is coming, I'll park it next to a 50amp outlet that I installed so I could wire it into the house. Turn off the main breaker, fire up the generator, and I'm in business. I usually keep a few hundred gallons of diesel on the farm, so I'm good for an extended outage. The burn rate is around 1/2 - 2/3's gallon per hour, depending upon the load, so I'm probably good for 4 - 5 days of continuous running with a full tank.

Natural gas has the same benefits of propane, and at the telecom company it was our preferred choice when available. We could not find a documented instance of a wide spread natural gas outage that coincided with a major power outage.

Our secondary preference was diesel, primarily because we could refill the tanks outselves during an extended outage, bringing in a tanker from out of the affected area if needed.

Bruce, I personally do not care for Generac products. At the telecom company, we dealt with most of the major brands of generators, and Generac's failure rate was 500% greater than the other major brands. Many of our field techs referred to them as "Generjunk" or "Genercrap" because of their poor performance.

Sprucegum · « **Reply #26 on:** February 04, 2009, 12:18:15 am »

Would't think wind chill would affect an "object" like a propane tank, or could it?
No problem around here with propane and -30° F temps. But you've got me wondering...

I'm trying to remember back 40 years - I remember every time the tank froze off there was a Dang cold wind blowing

I also remember the tank was much more likely to freeze if we let it get less than 20% full. At that level the heat-transfer effect GaryC was talking about would come into play.
We had a 1000 gallon tank.

rowerwet · « **Reply #27 on:** February 09, 2009, 06:57:53 pm »

I was working in a large hangar one year when it hit -20 during the day for 3 days. we had kerosene salamander heaters for each mechanic, and one gas heater (beside the radiant gas heat that normaly worked just fine all winter!) with a large gas bottle (50#?) we had to put an electric heater on the gas bottle so it wouldn't freeze up during operation.

Reddog · « **Reply #28 on:** February 09, 2009, 07:16:16 pm »

Ditto to Gary's comments.
I have seen a few large home tanks froze up at -40.
Also the regulators can freeze and shut the system down.

John Mc · « **Reply #29 on:** February 10, 2009, 12:09:38 pm »

I use a 4 KW Generac portable for my emergency power needs. I can't run everything, but this is enough to get by. It does have a claimed surge capacity of over 6 KW (I find it hard to believe, but that's what's in the specs). It runs my fridge and the extra freezer, some lights, and the small pumps on my propane fired boiler along with a few other items. If I want to fire up my well pump (500 feet deep well) or something else with a large load, I just make sure I've shut off one of the fridge/freezer breakers. If I were buying it over again, I might get a 5 or 6 KW unit. I can't imagine needing a 10 KW+ unit for emergency backup... but then I don't have (or need) AC, and I'm willing to forgo the luxuries while the power is out.

A couple of years ago, I decided I didn't want to worry about having fresh gas around at all times to run the generator, so I ordered a kit to convert this generator to run on either propane or gasoline. It works great, and I've got a 500 gallon underground tank already (between the size fo the tank, and the fact that it's underground, I've never had problems with it freezing up). I did notice I bit of a loss in available power when running on propane. Part of this might be due to the fact that I haven't really tuned the propane regulator in for running under full load.

If anyone is interested here's a link to the site where I got the conversion kit:
http://www.propane-generators.com/ I got the dual-fuel version, so I can still run it as a portable generator on gasoline when I want. It was easy to install, though I did have my propane supplier add the quick disconnect and shut-off valve to my supply line, to make sure I didn't screw that part up. While he was here, he also checked the installation of the regulator and hoses on my generator for leaks (no problems there).

John Mc

Ironwood · « **Reply #30 on:** February 10, 2009, 07:59:49 pm »

Propane tanks can and do ice up alot, many blacksmiths running gas forges have to sit hte 100#ers in a tub of hot water.

Ironwood

bandmiller2 · « **Reply #31 on:** February 18, 2009, 07:14:19 am »

A little known fact propane sitting in a tank for a long time will stratify and not burn well if the tank is shaken or agitated it will burn normally.Feel free to attack on this one [flack jacket on].I have converted my old defiant wood stove to propane.I get alot of partally full 20 pount propane bottles that have sat for quite a wile.Sometimes I get one that won't burn right if i shake the tank then it burns normal.Asked a trusted friend and good mechanic with propane engines,he said it will seperate after long storage.Have any of you had this problem,or thought you just got bad gas??Frank c.

sawguy21 · « **Reply #32 on:** February 18, 2009, 10:02:10 am »

John Mc brought up a good point. Propane fired engines will not produce as much power as those on gasoline.

srt · « **Reply #33 on:** February 22, 2009, 09:30:29 am »

Just another thing to throw into the decision process. Around here, the propane companies like to keep the tanks filled. Most of them own the tank, and you cannot have another company fill it. One farmers I know have gone to buying 1000 gal tanks and burrying them. Once per year, he calls several propane companies and get a cash price to refill the tank. If I remember correctly, early June is when it's generally lower. He feels like he's saved money in the long run.

Another thought/question. A few years ago I was looking into this same issue, and I discovered that some of the gen sets (yamaha?) seemed to be dc generators and AC invertors. Their trick was the engine speed would match the needed load, as opposed to a straight generator, which has got to run at a constant speed to give you 60 cycles. I'm wondering if one of these would give better overall fuel efficiency for the long haul power outage?

I guess most new generators would give clean enough power to run computers etc, but that might be something to consider if anyone is looking at an older set.

Up until a couple years ago, you could buy imported diesel generators from China that ran at about 600 rpm and sounded oh so sweet. They ran from a few KW up to 25 KW. They were a clone of the old Lister cold start diesel. I waited too long, and they've been significantly restricted (EPA thing). I ended up getting a good deal on a 6kw diesel gen set pulled from a fire truck. It's not real pretty, but it always starts and it's on a wheeled cart.

Not for everyone, but I think they're pretty neat!

John Mc · « **Reply #34 on:** February 26, 2009, 12:24:29 pm »

Quote from: srt on February 22, 2009, 09:30:29 am

A few years ago I was looking into this same issue, and I discovered that some of the gen sets (yamaha?) seemed to be dc generators and AC invertors. Their trick was the engine speed would match the needed load, as opposed to a straight generator, which has got to run at a constant speed to give you 60 cycles. I'm wondering if one of these would give better overall fuel efficiency for the long haul power outage?

Yes, those inverter-based generators are great, but also expensive. Honda also makes them, and I'm sure a number of other manufacturers. Most of the inverter-based generators have VERY clean "true sine wave" power. But it's worth checking into if you're buying. I haven't run into one in use on a generator, but there are stand-alone inverters which are quite "dirty" (stay away from "modified sine wave" inverters if you are running sensitive electronics.

Quote

I guess most new generators would give clean enough power to run computers etc, but that might be something to consider if anyone is looking at an older set.

It's not so much a question of older or newer. There are still new generators on the market which produce fairly dirty power. They can be hard on motors and electronic gear. Within the category of non-inverter-based generators there are both clean and dirty units. I used to knbow some of the key features to look for (brushes vs "brushless", etc.), but it's been too long for me to remember them now. Unfortunately, most of the specs and advertising literature you see just focus on the engine part, with little info on the generator end of things.

I wish I still had my old oscilloscope. I'd like to put the output of my 4KW Generac on the scope to see how dirty it is. My bet is that it's not all that great.

moonhill · « **Reply #35 on:** February 28, 2009, 07:45:59 am »

Also note the RPM's of the genny. The 3600 rpm units are ok for short stand by run times. Look for a 1800 rpm unit if you are looking at the long run. I think that may be the issue with the Generac quality issue. I like the generator/welder units, multipurpose, at a reasonable cost. If I had a choice I would go with diesel, it is a simplicity issue. You could even go "green" if it turned your crank.

Tim

John Mc · « **Reply #36 on:** February 28, 2009, 01:18:39 pm »

Quote from: moonhill on February 28, 2009, 07:45:59 am

Also note the RPM's of the genny. The 3600 rpm units are ok for short stand by run times. Look for a 1800 rpm unit if you are looking at the long run. I think that may be the issue with the Generac quality issue.

I always thought the reason to go with the 1800 RPM units over the 3600 had to do with mechanical reliability (mainly of the engine, but perhaps also to some degree on the generator?)

Are you saying this also effects how "clean" the power is? (not arguing, just asking, since that had not occurred to me)

Two of the things I THINK I remember affecting power quality in non-inverter based generators are brush vs brushless in the generator section, and type of voltage regulation (capacitive vs electronic ?? I may be remembering this incorrectly)

John Mc

moonhill · « **Reply #37 on:** March 01, 2009, 06:26:13 am »

Just speaking from experience. The higher rpm units just fall apart over time. The 1800 units have 4 windings in the generator while the 3600 units only have 2, the have to revolve twice, hence the higher rpm. It just makes sense the lower the engine speed the longer it will run. And why not use less fuel, too? I do not profess to know how clean the energy is. I do know a DeWalt charger does not like my inverter.

Tim

John Mc · « **Reply #38 on:** March 01, 2009, 12:04:16 pm »

Quote from: moonhill on March 01, 2009, 06:26:13 am

I do know a DeWalt charger does not like my inverter.

It's probably a modified sine wave (or perhaps even a square wave) inverter. Lots of things don't like them... some electronics act flaky, some electric motors run hot, etc. A "true sine wave inverter" is often cleaner than grid power, though these are more expensive.

John Mc

StorminN · « **Reply #39 on:** March 01, 2009, 12:50:09 pm »

Quote from: John Mc on February 26, 2009, 12:24:29 pm

I wish I still had my old oscilloscope. I'd like to put the output of my 4KW Generac on the scope to see how dirty it is. My bet is that it's not all that great.

John, do you have a friend that works on cars? Most hand-held car scopes these days have little full-blown digital oscilloscopes built in...

I've got a 4kW Generac as well... it has the 8hp iron sleeve Briggs... I bought it at a yard sale for $50, guy said he had started it three times, and I believe him... he bought it for Y2K and never used it. It's served me really well, I built a building using it before I trenched 1,400 feet in there for power. It starts on the first pull, every time. It's waaay more portable than the 9kW diesel I have, too.

I've got a couple of 'scopes, I've always thought about testing the wave from that Generac, I'll have to do that just for kicks... but yeah, I've noticed the Milwaukee and Makita batteries take longer to charge off the generator than off of the grid, so I imagine the generator wave is dirty. One of the nicest waves I've seen is the output of an off-grid Outback inverter... very clean, much nicer than my big old Trace inverter.

-N.

John Mc · « **Reply #40 on:** March 01, 2009, 02:43:33 pm »

Quote from: StorminN on March 01, 2009, 12:50:09 pm

John, do you have a friend that works on cars? Most hand-held car scopes these days have little full-blown digital oscilloscopes built in...

I never would have thought of that... I'll have to nose around a bit to see what some of my friends have.

Mine is a Generac 4000EXL. 4000 watt continuous, 7.8 HP, electric start (or it would be if I ever got around to replacing the battery). About the only thing impressive about it is that it has a 6600 watt surge capacity -- or so the specs claim. I haven't seen many others with a 50+% surge rating

In the 7 years I've owned it, it's probably only run about 125 hours.

WoodMiller · « **Reply #41 on:** March 02, 2009, 08:14:51 pm »

Our 12 KW Generac Standby genset got about a 6 hour workout this morning during our little winter storm. It ran just fine, according to the wife, but the UPS for the computer, which isn't on a backed up circuit, kept waking her up with its power interruption alarm. I was plowing snow at the airport when she called me to tell me that the alarm was keeping her awake, so she unplugged it from the outlet "but the alarm kept going off!!!"

We've been married for better than 25 years, so I just bit my tongue and told her where the on/off switch is.......

TerryKing · « **Reply #42 on:** March 03, 2009, 07:09:36 pm »

Someone said: "I have a Generac 15KW propane standby generator and it has been very reliable - biggest maintenance issue was to remember to check the battery water when we changed the oil. The battery is on a trickle charger and can lose water over the year. "

I installed and maintained several generators for broadcast stations over the years.

Propane is the easiest to maintain. Diesel is necessary for the big ones, though.

A few observations:

- Buried tanks are best.. much more independent of outdoor temperatures..
- Batteries need regular (monthly) checkups.
- Batteries best at room temperature for starting. When the genset was near a building wall, I ran large cables through the wall and put batteries inside the building. Also easy to maintain!
- Diesels need block heaters for quick starts in real cold weather. I could drop 15 Kw load on 25 Kw generator 15 seconds after starting.
- Run the genset for at least 15 minutes, loaded, once a month. We used 5 2KW baseboard type heaters as a load.
- Test the whole system and automatic switchgear by cutting the main breaker every 3 months. In Broadcast, that meant a 2AM Sunday Night / Monday Morning trip to the transmitter site. Usually had other power-down maintenance to do anyway...

These days, I'm looking at the diesel with woodgas setups for the old Vermont homestead...

Ironwood · « **Reply #43 on:** March 12, 2009, 11:59:06 pm »

Well, I have a 5500 portable junk Colman gen that my Dad kinda' directed my way. OK I suppose.

Today I found a slick 7KW Kohler (4 cylinder) out of a box utility van. It is low RPM, has two little compressors and a two speed heat exchanger to pull the hot air from an additional radiator loop. Really a neat set up. Includes two retractable hose reels on it too. I bought it for $400

. A little smaller than I wanted, but it will keep us in good shape for a power outage. Said to run on about a gallon and hour (seems resonable). I may get one of those dual fuel conversions, although I may be able to find one on a forklift (thanks for the link John Mc). I need to put a few Army can holders on it as it was directly hooked to his van's fuel tank. I think I will modify a jerry can lid to have the fuel line directly thru it. Then I can put my 20 jerry can fleet to work

. Guy who owned it had a small construction co. that he had to get out of. Also scored a nice 6' x 16' (internal dimensions) galvanized ice delivery box van body, I am going to put my Ebac-800 in it. REALLY heavy old galvinized unit.

Gotta love Craig's list.

Ironwood

srt · « **Reply #44 on:** March 13, 2009, 01:18:31 pm »

I was on the farm this past week, and as I usually do when I'm there for more than a day, I light off the 6KW diesel generator and plug a load into it for 15 or so minutes (or until I remember it's running a couple hours later, whichever comes first).

I've put stabilizer in the fuel, as it rarely gets used except to make sure it still works. However, I was thinking as I walked past the fuel oil tank for the house furnace. Can I run that diesel off home heating oil in an extended electrical outage? Google gives many different answers. So what's the real truth about running diesel engines off home heating oil? Yes, I know enough not to pull from the bottom of the tank, and I would batch fill the generator tank, not hook the 270 gal tank to a vibrating gen set.

I'd love to be able to just go over to the fuel oil tank for my diesel mowing tractor while I'm at it. I don't use enough diesel on the farm to make a big tank practical, but it sure is cheaper and more handy from the heating oil tank than road diesel from the station.

Also, while I was there, the propane guy was out to talk about putting in a 500 gal tank for the guest house, where we're changing from oil to propane for the heat. I bent his ear for a while about propane, and the only thing I could get out of him that was noteworthy was what he said about burried tanks. He doesn't like burried tanks. He said they've had two leak on them in the past couple years, and that the mfgr only warrantees them for one year if burried. I've never heard of them leaking, but that's what he said, and he's the owner of the company. The leaks were at welds - not surprise there.

Wudman · « **Reply #45 on:** March 13, 2009, 04:29:55 pm »

For those that already have a suitable power source, I would look at a PTO generator. We have an old 50 Kw Winpower on the farm. We have a Deutz D100 06 with a 1000 rpm pto to pull it. Just pulling the house, the tractor is barely off idle. Fuel consumption is minimal. As the tractor is used regularly, things are fairly reliable.

Wudman

Modat22 · « **Reply #46 on:** March 13, 2009, 04:43:04 pm »

I had to jump in here, my advice to anyone getting an emergency power genny for the home is get the smallest Genny that will do what you need it to do. If you have a 20kw but only use 4kw its still using 18 to 20kw worth of fuel.

I run my whole house off a 5kw lincoln welder/generator and had to do it for about 8 days this year. Wife had a baby and the day after we got home the ice storm hit and we couldn't get out. I ran the house 24/7 off that little beasty (lights, well pump, furnice, fridge and freezer and the hot water heater at night) burned about 10 gallons every 24 hours.

Took me 8 hours of drive time to find fuel the next day because all the stations in my area had no power.

Ironwood · « **Reply #47 on:** March 13, 2009, 08:44:18 pm »

Modatt

Your right on the having what you need ( and not too much extra). I had not thought of this until you begin considering how much fuel one of these things uses. I guess 7 KW is good, just enough to pump water from our well, keep the freezer and furnace going, and a few lights. We'll have to get by

.

Off road diesel and/or heating oil should run your diesel gen fine. I thought about getting diesel for effiecency and the fact there is usually 300 gal on the place at anytime, but the potential future prospect of a gas well kept me thinking gasoline/propane/NG.

I got my little 7 KW on a steel pallet, w/ a fuel tube welded into a Army jerry can lid (can be transfered from can to can), and a new battery and welded up a crude air cleaner, and fired it up. Really quiet, which is nice compared to my 5.5 screaming Coleman. I am missing one of the sheet metal sides and I will likely do a few other things enclosing it a bit. One idea I had was to create a trailer from the steel pallet (I have 50 of these) with my Norwood stub axles. I never go mobile w/ the mill, and I could use them in various ways via these pallets. One ongoing thought is to throw cord wood directly ont othe pallet IN the woods, then just pull the axles off and it is a "Pallet" of wood again, put the axles on the next pallet.

Gotta think about this but I think there is something there........

Ironwood

submarinesailor · « **Reply #48 on:** March 28, 2009, 07:08:28 pm »

scsmith42: "I personally do not care for Generac products. At the telecom company, we dealt with most of the major brands of generators, and Generac's failure rate was 500% greater than the other major brands. Many of our field techs referred to them as "Generjunk" or "Genercrap" because of their poor performance.

Scott,

After your comments about Generac, I got to looking for something else. So, plan "B" is Kolhler 12RES for about $1,000 more. Is the extra $1000 worth the Kolhler name?

Anyone else like Kolhler better than Generac?

Bruce

Ironwood · « **Reply #49 on:** March 28, 2009, 07:59:08 pm »

The little 7 KW I bought was a Kohler 4 cylinder (looks like the Continental in my forklift), fires right up, and quiet. The fellow I bought it from ran it for a little construction co he owned and closed, he said about a gallon an hour. Purrs right along, I am no expert, but this thing is from 1989-90 and runs great. I don't know how many hours are on it, I'll have to look.

Ironwood

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