Are American foresters underpaid?

[fkarcha]

The US has a wide variety of forest types and management schemes, along with certain political and social aspects, that draws to me to getting a job as a forester in the US.

However, except for the Northwest and New England, every forester seems to make a very low salary.  For example, foresters in Colorado and Texas earn less than $35,000 while areas in Canada with the lowest demand for foresters can pay significantly higher salaries (starting at 50K and moving through 65K). 

Do foresters in America feel they are underpaid for their skills and education?  Can anyone get by on these salaries?

[beenthere]

fkarcha
Where are you getting your salary numbers from?

And at what stage in the foresters career do those numbers apply?

Don't know what you mean by "get by" either.   

So many variables....

[Dodgy Loner]

Are you talking about foresters hired by the USFS?  State forestry commissions?  Timber companies?  Private consultants?  Are you talking about foresters with bachelors' degrees or Masters' degrees?  Are these starting salaries you're talking about, or folks who have been on the job for 10 or 20 years?

To answer one question, I think it's very much possible for people to get by on $35K a year.  I know people who live comfortable earning less than that.

[fkarcha]

My numbers come from advertised positions and personal communication.  I commonly view jobs on some Canadian sites (Canadian-forests.com, government job sites) and American sites (usaforestry.com, SAF). 

What I see is that neither entry level nor upper level jobs in the USA command high salaries.  For example, a forestry technician or summer student might get $3600 a month in British Columbia, or $2800/month in Manitoba.  An entry level Forester positions commands a range of 52-64K per year in both places.  Upper level may be over 100K.

In contrast, forester positions in Texas and Colorado do not seem to ever justify more than $35K per year.  Mid level positions in Oregon and Washington seem to command similar amounts to entry-level Canadian positions. 

If I am to believe the stories of educations costing 50K a year, how does a forester justify a 4 year degree for such little payout?

The second point:  Getting by is certainly ambiguous.  So if we assume that American forestry students incur student loan debt of $200,000, have a graduate salary of 35K, it would take 28 years to pay off the student loan (not including interest) if you paid 20% gross per year.  A greatly simplified situation, but such a situation is hardly ideal.

Am I off the mark?

[Dan_Shade]

$50k/year is pretty high, I'd guess most out of state costs are about $25k/year

[woodtroll]

I did not pay 50k or 25k a year for my schooling. 
I tend to think foresters are under paid, but that is part of the free market. There is always someone willing to do the job for low money.
I also believe that Americans under value their forests and the multiple benifits derived from them.
While I am at it, Americans under value the wood they use.

Where else but in forestry could you be managing hundred thousand dollar sales and still only make a small % in pay.

[Ron Wenrich]

First off, I don't think education is costing 50k per year.  To get those high prices, you would have to factor in the loss of income due to no job.  Our state run university is running about 12-13k/yr for tuition.  Its the only one offering forestry courses.  Out of state residents pay more.  Living expenses drive the price up, but you have to pay for living expenses no matter where you're at or what you do.

You also have the pesky exchange rate.  The Canadian dollar is worth 80¢ US.  So, you need to get more in Canada just to stay comparable with a US job.

All salaries are relative to a certain area.  We bought a mill from an Ontario company, and they had their technicians come down to help the install.  They were amazed at how cheap things were here in this country.  They would drive back with a truckload of stuff nearly every week.  So, we can actually work cheaper if our cost of living is cheaper.

I believe that US foresters do make less than in some other countries.  No one forced me to take a job in the field.

[WDH]

In the span of my career, forestry has always been moderate on the pay scale.  For many, it is a lifestyle choice versus a make-a-lot-of-money-in-the-rat-race choice.

The US salaries you mention are more like starting salaries right out of school.  It you do a good job, you can grow from there and make a decent living.

[SwampDonkey]

Ron, aside from cost of fuel, many commodities, housing, rent, automobile (depending on state), electronics, appliances... cost the same. As a friend told me , who moved to the states, you can't compare cost on exchange rate. He said his groceries cost the same in dollars (regardless of exchange) where he moved to, as they did back home. Even taxes, some states have high taxes and are tiered others not so much. I know lots of people here in New Brunswick living off less than $24,000 gross a year. I'm one of them. You want to live here, you have to sacrifice a few things because the job market has always been depressed here all my life. But, I own all I have, except a car payment. That makes a big difference to.

[beenthere]

fkarcha may be in school now, and interested in a job in the US. If so, he will soon have an Economics course, and learn that the salaries likely are a result of supply and demand. The basic stuff.

But if the grass looks greener in Canada, then that is where he should look for the forester job (assuming that is the reason behind the question).
I don't think direct comparisons can be made, as has been pointed out. Very hard to pin down the variables that go into the numbers. If I were to be hiring a forester (or anyone for that matter), I'd start as low as possible for the job requirements, and once on board, work up from there. Eventually the Peter principle will kick in, and the person will be promoted to a notch above where he/she belongs...

Now, minimum wage-type legislation will throw a wrench into the Economics 101 and make for some phony situations...not sure how Canada fits into that equation.

[Clark]

Your costs for schooling are way out of line.  I made minimal efforts to avoid loans and ended up owing ~$15K after 4 years.  I think that is fairly typical for a 4 year degree at an average state-run school.

I knew going into forestry that it was not a great paying job, but as others have pointed out, the lifestyle can more than make up for it.  Add in a spouse who is willing to work and you aren't doing bad at all. 

I do wonder why the Canadians tend to make so much more.  Now that I am in the PNW I wonder why they pay these industrial foresters out here so much more also.  Granted, the land out here is more productive but if we want to talk about actual work done, well...

So why is that Canadian foresters make more money than American foresters?

Clark

[beenthere]

Maybe the pay is higher in Canada because they want to keep them there (in those jobs). Because they value thier knowledge and worth to the business or to their Gov't, which ever be the employer.

Maybe, just maybe, it is the supply and demand again.

I've heard our (USA) foresters start out in the field, making forestry decisions. As they become more experienced, they are promoted into management jobs in offices with bigger responsibilities (more pay), and in charge of hiring new foresters to work under them.....putting the new foresters out in the field (at entry pay levels).

Some say this is upside down, and the more experienced person needs to be in the field, not the inexperienced. But I'm not in a position to judge any of that thinking.

[BrandonTN]

Yeah, I agree with Ron that maybe that 50,000K a year tuition is including "opportunity cost".

So if we assume that American forestry students incur student loan debt of $200,000

No one could accumulate that kind of debt in 4 years at a state/public school. Maybe that's including opportunity cost (of not working) and including tuition for Yale school of forestry. 

Here at the Univ. of TN, it would cost a student around $40-45,000 to get a four year degree in forestry....(that's including in-state tuition, meal plan, and on campus housing.) Tuition for a full load by itself is around $3 to $4 thousand a semester.

And as for those low salaries, that sounds like someone kind of new in their field. Besides, many people (of all majors) don't work in the field their degree is in anyway, so the economic reasoning of getting any degree could be questioned.




Besides, using that forestry degree to work in wildland firefighting is a way to get out of debt quick.

[TheWoodsman]

If I am not mistaken, and I am confident that I am not, consulting foresters can make much more than 50-65K.  I think, just like many other jobs, there can be a big difference between the quality of a forester that's a slacker and one who truly enjoys their work and works to improve their knowledge each day. 

[Rocky_Ranger]

What's bad is my daughter is now a senior at a state college, but her first semester cost as much as my combined 4 1/2 years and degree.   

[BrandonTN]

Do foresters in America feel they are underpaid for their skills and education?

To answer the original question (not that I am an experienced source of info), I'd say foresters could possibly be underpaid for the importance of the work they do. Maybe the general public does not understand the importance of good forestry for the long run. In the long run, good forestry could be priceless.

[John Mc]

I have no idea whether foresters are underpaid or not. I do know that it's rare to find anybody, in just about any profession who thinks they are overpaid.

[Ron Wenrich]

Maybe the general public does not understand the importance of good forestry for the long run. In the long run, good forestry could be priceless.

The public can't tell the difference between a forester and a logger.  If they know that there is a difference, then they think foresters are the guys in ranger towers or they are park rangers. 

As for consultants making higher money, it depends what kind of forester they are.  I know of one guy that made well into the 6 digit range, but I didn't like his ethics.  Several others I know will mark for the paycheck.  I knew other consultants that were also veneer buyers.  There's a wide range of things guys can do to make a big buck in this business.  It depends on how well you market yourself and how well you can network.

My 4 yr education was gotten for less than the interest on $30k.  That included books, tuition, meals and housing.  A six pack of Bud was $1.25, and so was the minimum wage.  My first job after college was for $2.10/hr. 

[petefrombearswamp]

Been retired since 2006
Worked in the public sector for the New York State DEC for a 16 years as a forestry technician.
Started my own consulting business in 1980 and had a great career.
I don't know anyone in my generation that entered the profession for the money!
This was the exact opinion of the father of a classmate of my at the NYS Ranger school. ( he, the father, graduated from the Syracuse College of Forestry in 1937)
Met lots of great people and spent the bulk of my time at work in the forest.
Still can't hunt or snowmobile without looking at the trees!
Pete

[Ron Scott]

A lot depends upon the professional forester's career path, employment opportunities, society's willingness to seek out and pay for the forester's knowledge, skills, and abitities, etc.

The forester's pay will most often be less than that of an engineer, doctor, lawyer, computer specialist etc., but the "nonmonitary rewards" often outweighs the "monitary rewards" in dollars and cents. 

The nonmonitary rewards of forest solitude, being close to nature, living and raising a family in a rural area, viewing wldlife, scenic views, etc. may be "priceless' to an individual and thus their reason for being a forester.


   

[keppoch]

when you say foresters in america do you mean a forestry degree (BSc) 4-5 yr program because in canada that is what we class as a forester ,and we have Forest Technicians as well and thats a 2 year program .The forest techs pay scale top out around 55 and the forester tops out around 60+

[Phorester]

Yep, in the U S of A a professional forester is considered by people in the profession as one who has at least a 4 year BS degree, forest technician as one who has a 2 year techincal degree.

 I guess these figures take into consideration the exchange rate?  And if they were developed when the US dollar was worth a lot less than the Canadian, then of course it would give the Canadian salaries the illusion of being more.

Also, at VA Tech, which has a reputation as a good forestry colleage, tuition and dormitory housing right now runs around $14 - 15,000 per year based on the standard 2-semester college year.

[SwampDonkey]

I don't think that can be too far off the mark we pay here. I remember it costing about $9500 with tuition and living expenses back in the early nineties. The years I went the tuition climbed every year by $800, it wasn't even a set percentage like inflation. $800 got piled on top each year. It seems that during that period tuition began to climb fast. Before that, the tuition was well under $2000, plus living expensive and lodgings. Rent is real high in that town (Fredericton) in my opinion even for a run down slum. I think there is a cap now of $29500 for total tuition for your degree. You used to be able to cover your tuition, books and living with a summer job. That's how they have allowed things to escalate. You can't keep up.

[Ron Wenrich]

When I went to college, I made it through on just the interest of $30,000.  That paid for room, board, tuition, books and transportation.  If you figured the interest rate at 4%, then I went for less than $1200/year.  Factor in inflation, and that would be the same as $7800/year in 2009. 

I know a 2 year tech that went to college with me.  He became a logger, and now has a substantial operation, with a much higher net worth than me.  Its also higher than one of my roommates that went on to get his Masters and is in charge of a department in Idaho.

Its not the degree, its what you do with it.  Some guys are satisfied with making a decent living, others want to set the world on fire, and others just crash and burn. 

[Samuel]

My numbers come from advertised positions and personal communication.  I commonly view jobs on some Canadian sites (Canadian-forests.com, government job sites) and American sites (usaforestry.com, SAF). 

What I see is that neither entry level nor upper level jobs in the USA command high salaries.  For example, a forestry technician or summer student might get $3600 a month in British Columbia, or $2800/month in Manitoba.  An entry level Forester positions commands a range of 52-64K per year in both places.  Upper level may be over 100K.

I am not sure what people are being paid in the US besides the websites I browse from time to time, but comparing Manitoba, BC and Alberta comes with extreme difference.  In Alberta, wages are somewhat higher than in other parts of Canada simply because of supply and demand.  As a Forestry Professional suits the oil patch so well, forestry companies are competing for skilled workforce.  With that said, the standard of living is more expensive in Alberta, compared to Manitoba or most other Canadian provinces.

As far as $35 000 per year in northern Alberta, I hope you like Kraft Dinner and pouched Mule Deer...