Author Topic: Tree bark ID please (Read 3943 times)

Larry · « **on:** January 16, 2009, 04:18:19 pm »

From a distance I thought black cherry but when close I think persimmon or something else...not sure. All kinds of hickory and oak leaves on the ground but can’t identify anything else. Twigs are too high for me to get to. Tree is maybe 15" dbh. Whata you guys think?

Lanier_Lurker · « **Reply #1 on:** January 16, 2009, 04:46:19 pm »

Looks a lot like persimmon. 15 inches is pretty big for persimmon, though.

Does not look quite like sourwood, but similar. However, I doubt sourwood ranges into your area.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #2 on:** January 16, 2009, 05:00:15 pm »

Probably an oak,doesn't persimmon have dark bark.

Lanier_Lurker · « **Reply #3 on:** January 16, 2009, 05:12:33 pm »

It is quite possibly a blackgum.

Larry · « **Reply #4 on:** January 16, 2009, 05:40:04 pm »

SwampDonkey, I don’t think it is an oak...were in an oak/hickory forest and I’ve only seen a few trees with this bark.

I too was thinking it might be a little on the big side for persimmon. As far as gum goes the only one I can recognize is sweet gum. I wouldn’t know black gum if it fell on my head.

Lanier_Lurker · « **Reply #5 on:** January 16, 2009, 05:59:43 pm »

Dodgy or WDH will be along later. That bark is distinctive enough that they will know it right away.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #6 on:** January 16, 2009, 06:58:10 pm »

All I can say Larry is it's perplexing to a fella that don't live down there to start with because any tree species I pick could have totally different bark in your location.

Even my black cherry bark is different than yours on older trees.

Ron Wenrich · « **Reply #7 on:** January 16, 2009, 10:08:29 pm »

I was thinking cottonwood. Black gum was my second thought. Trees of the same specie look so much different from one area to another.

Stephen_Wiley · « **Reply #8 on:** January 16, 2009, 10:53:37 pm »

Not familiar with that part of the country.

Like Ron.......my first thought was Cottonwood;

second was 'Oregon White Oak' the bark in these tree(s) varies and I have seen some looking like Persimmon, however I do not know if you have any growing out there.

Older Black Gum I would not rule out.

WDH · « **Reply #9 on:** January 16, 2009, 11:07:27 pm »

I would bet Swamp Donkey's new foot locker and Metalspinner's gorgeous maple slabs that it is Nyssa slyvatica, good old upland blackgum, just like the observant Lanier Lurker points out.

That bark is exactly typical for old, upland, blackgum.

Lanier_Lurker · « **Reply #10 on:** January 16, 2009, 11:12:54 pm »

Indeed, those maple slabs are something to behold. Big enough for a dining room table.

Glad to know I was on target with this one. I learned a thing or two from you when I was down there, WDH!

WDH · « **Reply #11 on:** January 16, 2009, 11:19:47 pm »

Yep, we saw a couple like that on my place. LL, you are becoming quite the dendrologist!

. BTW, the shumard oaks you gave me still have mostly green leaves. Right after this arctic chill we are under will be the perfect time to plant them.

I have one to post (a bark pic) that is a real doozy. The photo is on my other computer, so I will post it later.

thompsontimber · « **Reply #12 on:** January 16, 2009, 11:47:34 pm »

yup, I'm going with blackgum as well...but go ahead and slip on the gaves and scale on up there and get us a twig. Or chop her down, snag a twig and see if she's hollow yet

Gary_C · « **Reply #13 on:** January 17, 2009, 12:41:30 am »

Quote from: WDH on January 16, 2009, 11:19:47 pm

I have one to post (a bark pic) that is a real doozy. The photo is on my other computer, so I will post it later.

Is that our first clue, it's a doozy?

LeeB · « **Reply #14 on:** January 17, 2009, 12:46:28 am »

Is black gum good for any thing? I have quite a few of them here.

Ron Wenrich · « **Reply #15 on:** January 17, 2009, 06:18:41 am »

We cut them into ties and pallet stock. The lumber goes a little wild when you start to dry it. I went to a carving show one time and they were selling black tupelo at a high price. Same specie.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #16 on:** January 17, 2009, 07:54:56 am »

Judging by the bark picture in the dendro text I would say black gum (black tupelo) is a good candidate.

WDH · « **Reply #17 on:** January 17, 2009, 08:36:57 am »

Quote from: Gary_C on January 17, 2009, 12:41:30 am

Quote from: WDH on January 16, 2009, 11:19:47 pm

I have one to post (a bark pic) that is a real doozy. The photo is on my other computer, so I will post it later.

Is that our first clue, it's a doozy?

No Gary. I will wait till I post, but now I expect you to guess. You should know what it is

.

Blackgum has spiral grain, so it can be unstable. The stump wood of water tupelo, a relative of blackgum, is prized for carving duck decoys. Around here, blackgum is only used for palletwood.

Larry · « **Reply #18 on:** January 17, 2009, 09:09:36 am »

I was thinking about taking the tree out to release a couple of small red oaks. WDH identifies the tree as a black gum...look it up in my tree book where it says birds, especially pileated woodpeckers like the fruit. We have a family of pileated woodpeckers that we enjoy watching...so the decision was made to leave the black gum...especially since I don’t need pallets.

I suppose you could say “WDH and Forestry Forum saves Woody Woodpeckers family from starvation”.

Thanks WDH.

thompsontimber · « **Reply #19 on:** January 17, 2009, 12:57:56 pm »

That spiral grain makes them a bit tough to bust too. Definetely a good wildlife tree and not much on timber value.

ARKANSAWYER · « **Reply #20 on:** January 17, 2009, 01:45:38 pm »

Not gum!

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #21 on:** January 17, 2009, 03:41:17 pm »

There is a hollow white spruce, still alive, along the road near the woodlot. Every time I have gone up in the last 2 weeks I see a new wood pecker cavity on the base of the tree. The tree has been rotten in the centre for a looong time.

WDH · « **Reply #22 on:** January 18, 2009, 12:14:09 am »

Quote from: ARKANSAWYER on January 17, 2009, 01:45:38 pm

Not gum!

OK Larry, we have a doubter. We need a twig if possible. If you split the twig, the pith should be diaphrammed, that is, there are little septums or dividers in the pith. In between the little dividing lines, there is normal solid pith. I still bet Swamp Donkey's foot locker and Metalspinner's maple slabs on it. OK, Arkansawyer, what are you gonna bet

?

Larry, you are doing a wonderful thing for the pileated woodpeckers. Next thing you know, an Ivorybill will show up and you will be famous

.

chevytaHOE5674 · « **Reply #23 on:** January 18, 2009, 12:38:01 am »

Look a like black gum to me. Good choice on leaving it for the birds.

Lanier_Lurker · « **Reply #24 on:** January 18, 2009, 07:53:42 am »

Speaking of woodpeckers, I was hopeful that I had spotted a red cockaded woodpecker on my suet block a few weeks ago. But, I have since decided it was a hairy woodpecker. I have seen pileated woodpeckers scooting up and down trees off in the distance, but they won't come to the suet block. I also have some red bellied woodpeckers showing interest in the suet block, but have not seen one on it yet.

I have habitat in this area that may be suitable for the red cockaded woodpecker. The band of property around Lake Lanier has been growing wild and largely "unmanaged" for over 50 years, and there are loblolly and shortleaf pines in all stages of their life cycle. There are a number of standing dead and dying pines that may be large enough to support these threatened woodpeckers.

metalspinner · « **Reply #25 on:** January 18, 2009, 08:24:30 am »

Persimion was my first gut instinct. I'll go with that.

I'll put one of those slabs up for the correct first guess. Winner needs to come get it, though. I don't have a stamp big enough to send it through the mail.

Quote

If you split the twig, the pith should be diaphrammed, that is, there are little septums or dividers in the pith.

I learned what the diaghramed pith was in SD Footlocker thread.

fishpharmer · « **Reply #26 on:** January 18, 2009, 09:12:18 am »

Put me down for persimmon.

http://www.dof.virginia.gov/trees/persimmon.shtml

Bark is shown on bottom right side.

WDH · « **Reply #27 on:** January 18, 2009, 10:36:29 am »

The bark ain't black enough to be persimmon. Persimmon is in the Ebony family, and ebony is black, very black. Also if it is persimmon, and you cut into the junction of a branch (major twig) and the stem, there will be black spots (ebony). Look for black spots at the nodes. Also, the inner bark in persimmon is yellow, very yellow. Not so in blackgum.

Persimmon has a berry, blackgum has a drupe, like cherry, with a solid pit in the center.

Blackgum has short shoots on the lateral twigs. Persimmon does not. A short shoot is where the little twig grows very slowly, like 1/16th per year, and the leaves whorl at the end.

Also, blackgum leaves have an accuminte tip, a sharply elongated point at the tip. very distinctive. Persimmon usually does not have a sharply accuminate tip.

MS, what Swamp Donkey showed was not diaphrammned pit but instead chambered pith. Walnut and butternut have chambered pith. In chambered pith, the soft stuff between the diaphrams has gone away, leaving a void. There is an empty chamber in between. In diaphrammed pith, the solid material remains in between.

Bamboo is the classic chambered pith. There are dividers, then empty space (the nodes are the diaphrams).

Think about sugar cane when you think about diaphrammed pith. There is a divider at the nodes, and soft (sugary in the case of sugar cane) solid stuff in between.

So, a leaf, a twig, or a fruit will be the corroborating evidence

.

Larry · « **Reply #28 on:** January 18, 2009, 11:22:27 am »

I had to stand on Kathy’s shoulder’s to get the twig...she didn’t mind much except when I got mud on her Sunday go to meeting dress.

Don’t be asking for no more twigs.

Hope I split the twig proper.

We had several big white oaks die and quite a few red oaks...I left most of them stand for wildlife. Kathy has spotted 7 varieties of woodpeckers...no ivory bills yet. Arkie has em though.

WDH · « **Reply #29 on:** January 18, 2009, 11:30:08 am »

Oh sweet diaphrammed pith

!

The diaphrams are distinct in your photos, Larry. They are the little dividers between the solid portion of the pith.

Oh sweet blackgum, if only your grain was not spiral

.

At least the woodpeckers will be well taken care of

. Larry, you are doing your part for the preservation of wildlife!!

Nice pictures, too

.

metalspinner · « **Reply #30 on:** January 18, 2009, 11:39:15 am »

So, who got it right first?

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #31 on:** January 18, 2009, 12:52:38 pm »

Another look at butternut "chambered pith".

My mistake earlier, slip of the fingers at the keyboard.

Here's a short shoot on a gray birch. I had a picture of a better one on a yellow birch, with leaves. Can't find it now in the gallery.

fishpharmer · « **Reply #32 on:** January 18, 2009, 03:36:50 pm »

Thats what I love about this place. Learn something everyday. Most all the black gums I have seen had wet feet.

Rocky_Ranger · « **Reply #33 on:** January 18, 2009, 08:27:16 pm »

Great thread! I too believe it is blackgum. I chased a couple trees last year for 10 months until I saw the chambered pith. Then when the fruits came this past spring it sealed the deal. These two trees were growing at about 2400' elevation near an old mining road that was used in the late 1800's. I concocted an idea it was an off-site planting of a non-native. It sure didn't look like a blackgum at all. Cucumber magnolia grows up there too so I was bamboozled. We also have big leaf magnolias but not at that elevation. DanG blackgum will fool ya when it grows in the water and on the hills. Of course I had all the so called experts give a guess, nobody got it right. I knew it wasn't some of the guesses but didn't have a definitive one myself either.

Ah, the thrill of the hunt...................

WDH · « **Reply #34 on:** January 18, 2009, 10:48:56 pm »

Quote from: metalspinner on January 18, 2009, 11:39:15 am

So, who got it right first?

Lanier Lurker!!

Lanier_Lurker · « **Reply #35 on:** January 19, 2009, 07:14:08 am »

Fortunate timing.

metalspinner · « **Reply #36 on:** January 19, 2009, 08:28:34 am »

A maple slab is awaiting your pickup.

(Don't forget your crane.

)

Larry · « **Reply #37 on:** January 19, 2009, 02:04:24 pm »

Sure is a lot more fun learning tree ID here instead of from the stupid old book. Now I can watch that black gum bloom, and grow drupes (is that the right word) and know what I’m looking at.

Again thanks for the input from all, especially the foresters.

And doesn’t the thread starter also get a maple slab?

Lanier_Lurker · « **Reply #38 on:** January 19, 2009, 02:55:11 pm »

The thing to really be on the lookout for is the autumn leaf color on this tree. If it has a decent size crown it should be impressive.

WDH · « **Reply #39 on:** January 19, 2009, 04:01:31 pm »

Yes, one of the first to show vibrant color. It is showy early.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #40 on:** January 19, 2009, 04:46:05 pm »

One exception to the chambered pith description of butternut, it has thick diaphragms. Those are the "dividers" you see that make the chambers. Just thought I would clarify further.

Walnut has thin diaphragms. Just so I know I'm not going bonkers on yas.

ARKANSAWYER · « **Reply #41 on:** January 19, 2009, 06:50:44 pm »

This is what black gum bark looks like on my side of the Ozarks. It is often confused with a post or white oak.

This is the bark of a turkey track oak which looks alot more like the bark on the tree Larry had. It is a red oak and quite common.

So with out a leaf or twig sometimes the bark is not a good indicator. I have a book of trees and the bark in it does not look like Larry's or mine.

Now this is just my opinion ( I know birds and peckers need homes) leaving dead standing oaks here where we have had so much borer problems and so many trees damaged you are just leaving a nursery for more bugs to hatch out of and then invade the trees you have left standing.

WDH · « **Reply #42 on:** January 19, 2009, 07:07:40 pm »

Big old blackgum on an upland site around here gets real knobby like the pic Larry posted. Back in the dark ages, I was a teaching assistant for Dendrology, having to grade countless little tree ID slips that the undergrad students filled out during their tree ID tests. Of all the tree species in that area of North Georgia, the tree that caused the most consternation and confusion among the students was blackgum. Balckgum has multiple personalities

. It gave the students fits because it was so variable and nondescript. If I come across a rather unassuming tree with no real unique characteristics, I always check the pith because that diaphragmed pith is a dead give-away. Blackgum has confused me so many times that now I can spot it a quarter of a mile away

.

Also, around here, the turkey oak will get knobby bark like Arkansawyer showed, but this far south, the color is much darker, almost black.

woodtroll · « **Reply #43 on:** January 20, 2009, 10:00:50 am »

Not to beat a dead horse here, but black gum that size get hollow but stay solid making great den trees. The scars that develop look very similar to a barn owl face.
But from the timber beast side, keep some gum for wild life but watch your regeneration. Black gum can quickly dominate an understory and out compete desirable trees such as your oaks.

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Author Topic: Tree bark ID please (Read 3943 times)