Over size piston

[joe_indi]

I tried  rejuvenating some old Stihl 046 cylinders by  installing cast iron sleeve inserts in them.
They worked fine except for a slight drop in power, which, I suspect is due to the increased friction from a non-chromed cylinder surface.
To compensate for this power loss I am planning to try over sized pistons.
I dont want to make BB type of modifications, they would decrease the life of the crankshaft drastically.
Just an increase in piston diameter by 0.5 - 1.0mm.
So what would be a safer or better  option  52.5mm or 53mm instead of the standard 52mm.
Getting it made is no problem as an Indian piston manufacturer will do it for me, provided I give him an order for a minimum 100 pieces.
I am running his 52mm pistons currently without any disastrous results.Cost? 25% of the original.
BTW the sleeves are being made for me by a local shop.They charge me the equivalent of $20 US for each sleeve installed and polished in the cylinder , after porting.
Is this cost okay?

Joe   

[Al_Smith]

 Well Joe either people work extremely cheaply in India or you tell a good story .

However with a cast iron cylinder one must remember you have to have some run time on them before they get seated in .Don't expect them to come up to power after running  2 tanks of fuel .

I've only ever done one engine with an iron sleeve and that was a 125 McCulloch .On that engine I fitted the sleeve  to piston clearence at .0045".

It does just fine but I don't have enough run time on it ,even after 4 years to have the thing "broken in "yet but it still has plenty of power .

The best thing to do is set that thing a tad bit rich and run it like you stole it .After about 10-15 tanks of fuel lean it out to normal and run it hard .It will either blow apart like a dollar watch or get with the program like it should . That iron will wear in and the thing should be all right in time .

[joe_indi]

Well Joe either people work extremely cheaply in India or you tell a good story

Though 0ne USD is approximately 42 to 45 Indian Rupees, I made it 50 rupees to a dollar for easier calculation.
I will tell you the 'story' in rupees.
The cast iron sleeve job cost 1000 rupees
An Indian piston for a 046 costs 250 to 1500 rupees depending on the quality of build
Re-working the bearing seats on the crankcase of a saw costs 800 to 900 rupees
Riveting a new bar nose to a  guide bar costs  35 rupees
Buffing a scoured cylinder costs 25 rupees.
Re-conditioning a worn inner of a clutch drum using the inner sleeve of a ball bearing costs 250 rupees.(BTW a local 6202 bearing costs 55 rupees and a 6201 45 rupees)
Installing a gunmetal thread insert  to replace worn out threads including the gunmetal costs 50rupees  that is for sizes 4mm to 6mm. Add 10 to 15 rupees for 8 or 10mm.
Re-doing the threads for the guide bar threads with cast iron sleeves costs 100 rupees each.
Re-doing the worn out threads on the cylinder for the spark plug including filling up with aluminum using TIG welding 650 rupees.
Re-conditioning the big end of a 066 crankshaft with needle cage from, God knows where : 350 rupees.
All that is what I pay the neighborhood  tooling shop for these jobs.
Here is what I charge for some of the work I do (materials excluded):
1500 rupees for a full engine job.
600 rupees for piston replacement including cylinder polishing.
250 rupees for a complete carb re-building.
25 rupees for grinding an out of shape chain
10 rupees for changing stuff like a starter rope , clutch or muffler.
Engine tune-up is done free of cost.

A good cup of coffee costs 10 rupees  a liter of mineral water 25 and a 2 liter bottle of Coke 45.

Al, now you decide for yourself whether I tell good stories or we work cheap out here.

Joe

[wannabeonetoo]

 WOW !! and we wonder why we are losing our manufacturing jobs 
  Steve

[Al_Smith]

   

Al, now you decide for yourself whether I tell good stories or we work cheap out here.

Joe

Well ,far be it for me to cast stones .I mean everything on the internet I take as Gospel truth but It's your story ,tell it as you wish .

Now as far as cheap parts that get shipped over the Pacific,I'm on the opposite end of that stuff .

In the interest of peace and harmony I won't really opine on that subject but only to say my thoughts are not favorable to the wholesale exporting of US jobs . Therefore no rant and rave will be forth coming on that subject from my keyboard .

[beenthere]

Joe
Good information, and I think you do enjoy cheaper labor and you do tell us good information. No doubt in my mind. Hope you continue to do so.

Harder for us to understand that in countries such as yours, there are people who are working for less, but I believe they need to work to eat. I suspect India doesn't have the welfare system our country has to support. And that is going to quickly get much more expensive for us. 

I recall being in Turkey, where getting an automobile repaired after a fender-bender was extremely cheap. Reason being that nearly everyone could hammer out the bent parts, mud in the wrinkles, and do the labor to sand and paint. Do the work right on the streets. So it was cheaper relative to how we get it done. There was no welfare system in Turkey, I was told. For kids out on the street, they were taken to State operated carpet mills and put to work weaving carpets. That was somewhat sad to see, but relative to being out homeless or running the streets, probably better for them to work for the State for very little money.

[mrcaptainbob]

Interesting info, Joe_Indi. How does the income compare to the general cost of living there?

[joe_indi]

..How does the income compare to the general cost of living there?

We have both extremes here, the very rich and the really poor who starve without the luxury of a single square meal a day.
And there is the middle class which fills up the gap between the extremes.
Cost of living here depends on your choice of life style.
You could have a simple but decent meal where you can eat till you bust for a sum as low as 15 rupees .This is the same meal a tourist would shell out $100   when he tries out the ethnic food here!
You could also pay  1500 to 2000 rupees for a meal, just to prove how much you have come up in life.
Some things you might consider luxuries are simple things for us.
Tailor stitched clothes are cheaper than store stuff.
Its still cheap to have somebody else iron your clothes at $1 for about 25 pieces of clothing.
A part time help comes for a  $1.50 a day.
A full time driver for your car would cost you $100 a month.
My son's college education costs $ 1000 a year.
My daughter's school education costs 400.
I was staying in a 2000sq. feet house with 3 bedrooms for a rent of $80.

A MS460 costs about $1100, an 18" RSC chain $24, a Husky 372 about $1000.
A chainsaw with the operator works 8 hours for $70 , inclusive of fuel, oil and meals and lodging for the operator.
A chainsaw operator will work for $10 a day plus expenses.
Cutting cost of a  metric ton of timber is $2 .

A worker on a farm is paid $5  to 8 a day and is happy with that if his wife too earns nearly as much since he could put three square meals on the table and still afford a school education for his 2 or 3 kids .
Probably he would also pickup a motor cycle on a bank loan.
Even the grass root level workers here seem to have cell phones these days.
TVs are there with cable or satellite connections in most houses.
The same goes for PCs.


Joe

[stonebroke]

So are things getting better over there?

Stonebroke

[joe_indi]

So are things getting better over there?

Stonebroke

If better means progress towards wrong values, the answer is no.
People are leaving villages to seek jobs in urban areas, not just cities, but also in factories.
This leaves less people to work the land.
Once the present generation of farm hands are no more, there are very few left to take up their jobs.
The next generation has eyes only on a job connected with Information Technology. I cannot blame them. When their parents earn a monthly income of about $250 the children, if they land the right job, take home about $ 500.
With this kind of windfall, people can afford consumer goods, cars and motorcycles.They can also afford new clothes at shorter intervals, improved homes, more shopping , eating out......all the things that 'progress' brings.
This in turn has caused towns to grow, more industries to feed the growing demand and, unwanted things like conversion of farm land into residential or commercial areas.
The urbanization has put pressure on basic requirements like water, and waste management.The former is in short supply and the latter keeps building up.
But this is not happening uniformly all over the country. In various parts of the country the ones who used to starve still starve, the ones who used to walk a couple of miles to get a bucket of water continue to do it, kids who use candles to study, keep buying candles. And worst of all you see people sit and weep over, even they don't know why.

Joe

With this kind of progress, Heaven alone knows what is going to happen in the future.

Joe

[VT]

Good reading Joe.
What is your trade / business ? Mechanic , 100 pistons is needing 100 saws , so that is not a good investment in my eyes. Also what is the fuel type your using on the saws, When i worked in China , finding good quality fuel was the problem for  some of the imported fancy cars they had there.
I was sent to repair there imported cars. Leaded fuel and poor quality was the problem. This was in 1995-8.

VT

[joe_indi]

What is your trade / business ? Mechanic
VT

Though I trained in the hotel trade, and ran my own restaurant years ago, I turned to retailing  micro irrigation , chainsaws and brush cutters.Though I had no formal training in the business, I taught myself to repair the ones that I sold.They do say a year of real experience is worth more than a college degree.
14 years into this business, I am still my own mechanic, because that way I never stop learning.The present post on over size pistons is an example.

100 pistons is needing 100 saws , so that is not a good investment in my eyes.
VT

Not out here where they ruin their saws cutting rubber trees.Each machine averages at least a piston a month.Some of my best customers walk in twice a week for a piston change!!
That's no story Al. honest.
So, 100 pistons would not last me more than a couple of months.
My customers have started to ruin their cylinders too, that's why I need to make it cheaper for them with a sleeve job for their cylinders.

Joe

[VT]

Well Joe if you see the 100 Saw's , then Pistons would be in order.
I'm glad i don't see rubber trees , I have had most of my saws since new and still the same piston's.
Softwood here, Fir, Hem,pine ,cedar .

Joe i think the economy / World / is going to have a bump larger than rising metals $$ and fuel prices, That is also another thing to keep in mind. Always a gamble , but thats what keeps the smart mind experience , more than a college degree.

Let Me and others here know whats happening in India always , I always find reading about other country's great.

VT

[Jim Spencer]

Joe;
The last time I was in India was in 1968.  I was Installing an engine machining line at Hindustan Motors in Utapara just near Calcutta.
I can believe every word you wrote.  At that time I could hire a servant for a approx. 1-2 rupees a day.   I hope and pray that India continues to make progress in their standard of living.  The life of an indian child is just as precious as that of an American child.
The Indian engineers were better educated than I was as an American engineer but corruption was so prevalent that business was almost impossible.  To buy anything required a bribe under the table.  The problem with India was not lack of knowledge but corruption even though it is the largest democracy on earth.  Too many blood sucking corrupt politicians.  The U.S. has been heading in the same direction the last 8 years.  We lucked out the last election and hopefully we have a leader who will have a transparent Administration.

[joe_indi]

The problem with India was not lack of knowledge but corruption

Jim,

In a land where many people have no idea when they would have their next meal or where so many starve to death what else could one expect?
Since you have been here, you might also know that at times people even sold their children so that the rest of the family could have a square meal.
But that is not unique just to India, I think this has been a practice all over Asia.
But this practice is not a product of the 19th or 20th centuries.
I think we had people starving since ancient times.
Corruption too has been passed down through the centuries.Bribes can be classified int two categories in my opinion.
Money paid for getting something do that  is completely  against the law and..
money paid to speed up things, which can also be classified as 'Speed Money'.

Corruption among politicians, irrespective of the country is a different cup of tea.
My personal opinion is that   politics was one's life's mission in the good old days,  but nowadays it is just a source of easy income, but unlike  other jobs, the earning is done in the most dishonorable way.

Joe

[Al_Smith]

  [
Not out here where they ruin their saws cutting rubber trees.Each machine averages at least a piston a month.Some of my best customers walk in twice a week for a piston change!!
That's no story Al. honest.
So, 100 pistons would not last me more than a couple of months.
My customers have started to ruin their cylinders too, that's why I need to make it cheaper for them with a sleeve job for their cylinders.


 Joe

Well Joe ,of course this is the internet and I like a good story as well as the next guy ,but a saw eating up two pistons a month is stretching it just a tad bit . Are they running sand mixed in the fuel or something ? What about the cylinders and the rest of the workings of these abused saws ,it takes more than a piston to make a saw go putt putt putt ya know .

Go get em ,I won't say a thing you already have an enraptured audience .

[beenthere]

I'm more than willing to listen to what joe_indi has to say, without ridin him about it.
Seems we have learned several things from joe.

Believe the parts you want Al. To me, everyone has something to contribute.

[Tom]

Me too.

[VT]

Me three , plus i HAVE been outside !!



Mr Joe , just tell us more , And if your going with 100 pistons , etc, why not buy a cyl boring machine.

VT

[joe_indi]

Well Joe ,of course this is the internet and I like a good story as well as the next guy ,but a saw eating up two pistons a month is stretching it just a tad bit . Are they running sand mixed in the fuel or something ? What about the cylinders and the rest of the workings of these abused saws ,it takes more than a piston to make a saw go putt putt putt ya know .

Go get em ,I won't say a thing you already have an enraptured audience

Waal Al,
If the internet is only for fairy tales, why dont you take a trip down here and see for yourself what they do to chainsaws in my country.
If the Indian (read cutting in rubber) saw owner's  primary concern  is getting the maximum  output out of the, so that he can recover his capital investment in the shortest period along with a handsome profit, a couple of pistons lost in between is nothing for him.
Yes we loose quite a lot of crankshafts, crankcases and cylinders too.Also a lot of tank housings get crushed by trees falling the wrong way in cross winds.

Jim Spencer has been to India and he worked in one of the few automobile plants here in those days.
So, he knows that in India, unlike in the West, we retain our automobiles for 10, 20 or even 30 years.We dont have junkyards for cars in India like you might have. You will see all them on the roads, till they die.
But, here we dont hold onto the pro chainsaws for very long like you might want to do.They get used to the maximum in a year's time, 8 to 12 hours a day, every day.Maybe a couple of days off for holidays.Now, 12 hours might set your head shaking in disbelief.If possible  they cut trees with the help of the headlights of the trucks, at times, till midnight.
The main reason being that the market value for rubber wood fluctuates more or less like the  Dow Jones Index. So time is a very important factor.You can loose your earnings if you are late by a couple of hours in delivering.

Okay, that briefly explains the circumstances under which the saws are used.
There are a couple of other factors too.
When you work a saw in your country, you are comfortable in  protective clothing.Here such clothing would cause us to sweat.The Indian operator sweats even  in his cotton tee shirt, cotton shorts and beach sandals.This comparison is just to give you an idea of the increased ambient temperature here.
The MS460 we get here is the same model that goes to USA/ Canada.Nothing is different.So just think for a moment of the difference in temperature. Right now the day temperature here  in the shade is a 'comfortable' 29 deg Centigrade, with a humidity level of 54%.

Until 2001 -2002 the MS460 had the same jets in the carbs as the older 046, that is 0.70. Nowadays it is a leaner 0.68.
The present day crankshafts carry the flywheel for a little bit of advanced ignition timing compared to the older ones.
(You will not find that one in any books or on the net.I compared a 90's crank with a new crank.You will just have to take my word on that one.)

Though our gasoline is officially rated at RON86, the actual value varies to the extremes due to adulteration.So, an average RON of 82  is more true.
Quality of two stroke oil varies from fully synthetic to 100% spurious, usually composed of used gear oil thinned down with diesel!

Though I can tell you more, I think I will stop here.

If you still want to think all this is part of my fairy tale, that is fine with me. Enjoy it as just that, like you said, at least I tell a good story.

Al_Smith lives inside a bubble.

VT,
Look at it from Al's side of things. A guy half way round the globe writes these wild stories on the internet.

Mr Joe , just tell us more , And if your going with 100 pistons , etc, why not buy a cyl boring machine.

Now, we are back where I started this thread.cylinder boring and installing sleeves is what I am trying to do.
Since I cannot afford a sleeve making machine the making of the ports are done by hand, not very precise in shape or in position.So there is too much of variation in air flow velocity and engine performance(power).
So, I had the bright idea of getting slightly oversize pistons made, to compensate for the loss.What I needed  was an opinion on which would be a better over size,  1mm or .5mm.
Since this thread was getting me no answer I went ahead and decided on .5mm.
I should be getting the first few 52.5mm pistons any day now.

Joe