general and specific questions about red cedar fence posts.

[srt]

Business in the cabinet shop is a bit slow right now, and I have about a mile of fence I need to plan on for the farm, so I'm thinking of cutting and prepping some fence posts.  Plan on using american field fence, and think I'll need to space the posts about 10-12' apart.  So, when I include the corral and culls,  I'll probably need close to 600 posts.

My woods is full of R/W oak, SYP, and Popular.  All not good fence post material.  One of my neighbors here in S. Jersey has lots of red cedar (Juniper), and I'm thinking of asking her if we can work out a deal where I pay her so much per post and do all the work myself. 

What's a fair price to offer her? 

Although I'd prefer black locust, I haven't noticed a local woods with anywhere near enough to do my job.  With red cedar, I've noticed the sap wood tends to rot and allow the staples to fall out over time.  If I throw them on the mill, and shave off the sap wood on one side, will that just make a mess and a post that's likely to curve way away from straight?  What about those log wizards - would that be the easiest way?  Or, am I making a mountain out of a molehill worrying about this?

Last question.  I don't want to cut down a tree to find out that it's all sap wood with a tiny heart.  I'd rather just let that tree stand.  The woods is mature, and pretty thick, but the cedars are only about 30 feet tall (in general).  Any way to quickly get a clue of what's inside the tree before I cut it down?  Drill a small (1/8") hole until I see red coming out, or not?

Teach me anything you want to about this subject.  It's my first large fence project.

[isawlogs]

I think that sawing the flat is a waste of time , the log wizzard will be frustating at the least , I would either staple the wire to the post as is or take an axe and take a sliver off to get to the "red" ... Knowing me .. it would get stapled quite quickly . 
 

[Cedarman]

In general, a tree with lots of greenery requires a lot of sapwood to support all those green needles.  A tree that is crowned over by hardwoods or other cedars tends to convert a lot more of that sapwood to heartwood.  So you might cut a tree with lots green and see how much sapwood there is and cut one that has lost a lot of needles and has mostly bare limbs and see how much sapwood is there. 
I wood slab the post.  If you can beat the post up and loosen a lot of the bark and get it off that will help preserve the wood.  No matter what you do the sapwood will deteriorate at ground level and a 1/2 foot above and below leaving just the red.  The post will not bow at all if you cut one face. 

The more heartwood the better.

I thought in New Jersey that most of the cedar was Atlantic White Cedar.

[ely]

thanks cedarman, i always have wondered about why some cedar had more white wood than others. its amazing to me the stuff i do not know.
i had always thought they were a different species but i was not smart enough to tell the difference.

[srt]

Thanks for the replies so far. 

Any idea what I should offer - to be fair to both of us?

Most of the cedar we have here is the red cedar stuff.  There are pockets of white cedar, but it's hard to come by, and certaintly more valuable for woodworking than for fence posts.  I have about 100 BF of white cedar left over from some shutters I built a while back, and I hold onto it fairly tightly. 

I think there was a whole lot more white cedar in these parts a long time ago, but it's been logged off.

Red cedar grows like weeds here.

[ARKANSAWYER]

 




  As you can see from the cedar heart I am holding that the sap wood is about 1 inch thick.  For the most part I find the sap wood will be from 3/4 to 1 inch thichk on most logs.  A log that is about 6 inches across the little end will have about a 4 x 4 in it and be mostly red.  That log here I pay $4.40 for if it is 8' 4" long.  That is cut and delivered.  Land owner will recieve about $1.50 and the logger the rest.
  GrandPa used to build a fire and char the ends that went into the ground.  It made them last longer.  Cutting a face off will not make them bow.  On the farm as a kid we used to fell logs that were about 8 inches dib and split them into 4th's and sharpen one end.  Char them in a fire and drive them into the ground.  Most of them are still there 40 years later.

[Cedarman]

Arky, looks like the prices you pay for cedar is up with us now.  I always thought you guys got it 5 to 15 cents a foot less than we did.  I do know some guys are paying 50 cents in my area, but I still get all I need at 40 and 45.  Oklahoma is still 35.

[srt]

Thanks Arky,

Based upon what you're paying, I have an idea of what the market will bear.  For me, they're worth a little more, as it's right down the road.  I can walk through the woods to her property, and there's good road access.   That will allow me to do a little bit at a time, and still be able to get home for dinner in 5 minutes. 

My farm's got real sandy soil, and some of the local folks have gone to driving posts in instead of digging post holes.  They say driving makes them tighter in the ground.  I can see the logic, but still wonder if that's the line fed by the impliment dealer and fence companies, or is it real?  Did you drive the posts in with a sledge, or have some more mechanical means?

I'd be thrilled if our cedar all looked like the one you're holding.  I've seen them regularly have less than half that amount of heart. 

[Dodgy Loner]

Most folks around here use hydraulic post drivers.  I can't imagine trying to drive fence posts with a sledge hammer, but maybe I'm just spoiled .  Metal t-posts can be driven by hand, but they have a much smaller cross-section.  I would flatten one face and skip the charring.

[stonebroke]

If you drive the posts they will be much much tighter. It takes seven years for disturbed soil to reach the density it was before. I had a customer once that put in high tensile after seeing mind. That winter he asked me how I kept the posts from pulling out of the ground, He was hving problems. First I said you had to have decent size posts. He repleid he was using railroad ties. I knew what the problem was. I said you are using a auger which he was. I said to pound the posts. So he got out his CAT 966 and put them in the right way.

Stonebroke

[srt]

Do you all suppose I need to drive them in if I'm installing field fence (block wire)?  It's just my guess that it doesn't put the amount of pull on posts that high tensile does.  Could be wrong about that though.

There's a fellow just down the road that bought a driver a couple years ago.  But I had some dealings with him that year, and he outright cheated me.  Gave me one price to cut and bale my hay as 5X5 round bales with net wrap.  When he finally got around to doing it, he did 4X4's with string wrap, and they weren't packed tight at all.  Then he had the nerve to charge me $2 more per bail than he had said it would be.  No explination, No "sorry I didn't get there on time, and didn't do the job as I'd said I would".  I'd been warned by others that he always makes sure he gets the best part of any deal.  I have a personal rule about being dome wrong.  I keep my mouth shut, pay the bill (unless it's way, way off) and don't do business with them again.  So,  I guess I won't be renting his post pounder!

[ARKANSAWYER]

  We would use a 6' metal bar to jab into the ground and wollow out a small hole to start the post into.  The point of the post would be about 2' long and we would drive as much as possible in the ground.  GrandPa had a big metal headed mallet and would stand in the back of the truck or on the wagon and I would hold the post and he drive them in.  I still have the mallet at the house.

[stonebroke]

If you have loose soil you could fill your bucket up with dirt and use the loader to pound them in.

Stonebroke

[Don K]

I am currently fencing in a small portion of the garden with ERC, mostly all heart. The wife is ready to fill it with flower and raised veg. beds.

 



Like Arky says I've found 3/4 to 1 inch on every tree I've ever cut my whole life. The sapwood will not rot if it isn't touching the ground.

Don

[Norm]

Very nice Don!

I have a follow up question if srt wouldn't mind. How do you keep the posts straight if you press them in. I use my excavator but have a hard time with that.

[Dana]

I have put in miles of high tensil fence using a post hole auger and have neve had a post lift out or move. I do tamp the earth back into the hole not just shovel it in loosely . Maybe thats why I haven't had any problems. Good corner post's, well braced, are the key to a good fence.

[srt]

Dana,  I  was told by my dad that he was told by his dad that you want the lazy man on the shovel and the hard working man on the tamp!

Norm,  Don't mind at all.  Appreciate all I can learn.  Only want to over-do it once.  I was thinking the same thing.  My skill with the front end loader isin't at the level where I could ice a cake with it yet, so I can see a real snaggle toothed line of set posts in my minds eye.

[Cedarman]

The best time to drive or push posts in is when the soil is very wet.  Clay ground is plastic and will flow out of the way.  I don't know how well sand will flow but think it would nicely. The bottom of the post must be either perfectly flat at 90 degrees to the post or if tapered there must be equal taper on each side or the post will go in and then try to lay down.  We stretch one strand of wire to get a straight line and a 12 foot stick for a spacer.  We used a 450 JD high lift to press the posts in.   We also dug the sod away to make it much easier .

Don K, that is one nice looking bunch of cedar.  The fence looks good too.

[scsmith42]

SRT, I have used both ERC and Locust posts on my farm fences.  Over time, the sapwood below grade on the ERC will rot away, leaving the post loose in the ground.  Unfortunately I was not familiar with Arky's charring tip, so I'll go that route in the future.

Pounded posts are definitely tighter than augered ones.  Unless there is a huge amount of taper, often times they will be tighter if you pound them in "small end first", ie upside down.

For pounding, we use an impact hammer on a tractor that is designed for that application.  I'm planning to build a sleeve to fit over a hydraulic ram on my backhoe to drive the future ones though - figure that I can reach out and place 3 posts w/o having to move the backhoe.  Can also adjust them as their driven too.

Scott

[dolittle]

My soil is clay and boulders so pounding posts was not an option when I did my 8 ft. high by 300 ft. long fence.  I used a post hole digger on the pto and a manual one.  Most of my holes are 4 ft. deep and when I back filled I ran water in the holes with the garden hose.  It took all the air pockets out and made a solid base.  Probably not as good as pounding but worked fine.

[srt]

Scott,

What is an "impact hammer on a tractor"? 

srt

[CLL]

ARKY and Cedarman, prices in central Mo is still at about 35 cents. You ask most of the sawers and they tell you they pay 45-50, call them and offer to sell them cedar logs and its 35-38 cents. It always amazes me why people have to lie to you about what they pay for or sell for. My opinion is if you don't want them to know don't tell them.

[scsmith42]

SRT, this link will show you what I'm referring to.

http://www.wikco.com/wspostdrvr.html

Basically it's a big piece of steel I-beam with a heavy weight that slides on it.  Springs pull the weight down, and the tractor hydraulics raise the weight to the top.

You position the fence post inside the I-beam and then trip the weight to pound it in.

Low tech, but beats pounding them in by hand and much tighter than augering them.

Scott

[Dave Shepard]

Here on the farm we would do the same as Arky, start a hole with a bar, and drive them in with a post maul. It probably weighs about 15 pounds. I did about a mile of fence at work this summer, we pushed locust posts in with a Kobelco SK150. We'd run a string if they had to be straight.

[srt]

Thanks Scott,  That's what I'm familiar with too.  For some reason, I was thinking there was a different, less store bought idea you were using.

[scsmith42]

SRT, the method that I intend to use in the future is to take a Hy-ram hydraulic hammer (typically used on a backhoe to break up concrete) and fabricate a sleeve to sit over the bit.  The posts will go into the sleeve, and then I'll use the ram to drive them into the ground. 

Theoretically, it should work similar to a palm nailer, but on a larger scale.

[submarinesailor]

Theoretically, it should work similar to a palm nailer, but on a larger scale.

Like a BIG palm nailer I would say.  Wonder if it will bust up the end of the post?

Bruce

[stonebroke]

Some pf the more powerful post pounders use a hardwood or plastic plug to prevent mashing the end of the post.

Stonebroke

[scsmith42]

I've wondered about this myself.  I think that I'll need to start with a clean, flat end on the post, and keep some downward pressure on the hammer so as to keep the plate in contact with the post.

In addition to a hardwood plug, as a backup lan I was thinking about cutting up a piece of an old tire and insert it above the post in order to soften the blows.  I don't think that I'll try this unless I start shattering posts.

Another option would be to install a pressure relief valve on the hydraulics so that I can dial the pressure down.

Scott

[Cedarman]

About the only time we busted a post was if the top wasn't perfectly flat.