thinning Tom's

[Tom]

No, this hasn't to do with my losing weight.  Maybe it should, but I haven't learned how to do that yet.

Today, the loggers moved onto my place and are thinning the patch of plantation pine west of the barn.  It's about 7 acres and they have taken out 1/8 acre, or less, for a landing on one corner and three short rows of trees. to make one load of pulpwood.

I'm amazed that there is as much wood in those little trees as there is.  They looked a lot smaller on the stump than they do on the trailer.

it sure makes me feel good to see something I planted loaded for the mill.  It's not everyday that you get to do that.  I probalby won't see the rest of these mature but I have some in the back that I can take out if I begin to feel mortal.

Perhaps tomorrow I can take a couple of pictures.

[SwampDonkey]

Keep us abreast Tom. We all like to see Tom's little piece of earth to. Some of them pine down there grow tall I here.

Even up here a 10 year old fir thinning, I mean it was thinned 10 years previous to  today, can yield a lot of wood/acre, but it's a lot of processing if done manually. Even my ground since harvest in 1994 has fir reaching 6 inches, some 10. They max out at 18" when done growing. Most of the fir would be around 2" - 4" breast height. A softwood tree up here really needs 25 years to reach a size that it begins to build wood at a significant pace annually.

[dsgsr]

"thinning Tom's" And I thought we were going turkey huntin    We gotta bunch of'em around here and can't shoot'em. We're in WMD (Wild Life Management District) # 27 NO HUNTING. We get to breed them and the state Biologist comes and traps them, takes them to his area and hunts them      OK, how do I upload a picture?

David

[SwampDonkey]

Photo posting is covered in "Behind the Forum" sub board. 

[WDH]

Tom,

Logging is exciting.  Seeing the trees that remain respond and grow into sawtimber is satisfying. 

If yore camera ain't broke, haul yoreself over there and get us some pictures .

[Gary_C]

Tom, tell us the particulars of the thinning. Are you removing certain rows or to a certain spacing or thinning to some specified basal area?

I am about to start a red pine thinning where the DNR has not marked trees, but just said "cut and remove 1/2 of the pine trees within the stand. Take one row and leave one row. Leave all outside rows." This is the second thinning.

On another similiar job, the DNR has just said "harvest pine species down to a basal area of 100 square feet per acre."

I guess the DNR has gotten tired of marking trees on pine stands.

[WDH]

On our Company thinnings, we allow the fellerbuncher operator to select what is cut and what is left.  They become very skilled at choosing the right trees. 

I, too, am selling a first thinning that will be harvested in 2009.  I thin heavier than most on my own property.  I plan to leave 150 trees/acre.  That is about 50 to 55 square feet of basal acre.  This level really stimulates diameter growth and jump starts sawtimber production.  It is much better to grow lumber than pulpwood, about a 4:1 value lift.

Here is a pic of a stand that has 7 years of growth since the first thinning was done.  The residual stocking after first thinning was 50 square feet of basal area.  It is time to do another prescribed burn this winter.

 

[metalspinner]

WDH,

I can picture about 100 cub scout tents set up in there.

[WDH]

MS,

It would be nice and clean for them under the canopy.  The redbugs might be bad though.  The way to tell a young inexperienced forester in the South is to watch him or her sit down on the pine straw in the woods.  The next day, they will be scratching .

The picture was taken in January 2007.  I will take a pic today to show what it looks like now.

I look forward to seeing Tom's pics .

Let me say that the 50 square feet of basal area can only be used with Loblolly pine.  That is too low for most species and definitely for hardwood. 

[Dodgy Loner]

I am about to start a red pine thinning where the DNR has not marked trees, but just said "cut and remove 1/2 of the pine trees within the stand. Take one row and leave one row. Leave all outside rows." This is the second thinning.

That just doesn't seem like the best way to go about a thinning.  If you remove every other row, you're removing half of your best trees.  Best to leave them there and let them grow.  Take the ugliest trees first when you thin!  I don't know, maybe the DNR has some wildlife objective in mind with those directions, but I doubt it.

[Tom]

The end rows stay and every third row is removed.  The remaining I have asked 10-12 foot spacings.  the original planting was done 4-6 foot  spacings in 12 foot rows.

This land has been hard on trees, although pine is about all that can be grown.  I suspect that it is full of nematodes because most crops fail after the first year or two.  The natural flora is wire grass, longleaf, loblolly and slash.  The governments curtailment of fire has limited the raising of longleaf, though it's beginning to come back some now.  Most plantations are loblolly. I chose slash because I favor that tree for sawlogs, over loblolly.  It is slower growing, which extends the rotation, but it produces a finer grained lumber than loblolly.  It would have been nice to have had longleaf, but containers were the only way to get them in the ground, other than natural seeding, and the forester recommended against it.

The ground has a minimum of topsoil, probably in the 1/2 sto 1 inch range, as an average.  Then there is about 18 inches of a sandy clay that holds nutrients as if they were felons.  It is highly acidic from the millenia of pines and grasses.  Barren surfaces and plowed ground allow the clay to wash out and the sand to blow away.

Below that sandy clay layer is Blue Gumbo clay.  With the acception of small pockets of drift sand, it is a solid layer that goes down as far as I've been able to dig and maybe all the way to hell.  A layer of rock lays at 90 feet and most of the good water wells around here are rock wells that draw their water from this layer.  Below that, somewhere, is the Floridan Aquafier and probably limestone, I don't know.

It' pine tree country.  The swamps are full of hardwood like water oak, live oak, swamp chestnut oak, Loblolly bay, black gum, holly and a ground covering of saw palmetto.  There are scattered pines that will come up in there, but they are mostly loblolly and slow to grow. The ground is not stable enough to take much abuse from equipment, so I chose to leave it naturally seeded.  There is an area next to the creek where an effort was made, many years ago, to plant loblolly.  The trees are small, poor and abused by rust scars.  If I thought I could replace them, I would, but without fire and the availability of a chainsaw crew, it would just make a mess.  I imagine that I'll take those trees out when I clear cut the hill and just let it reseed natutrally.  Perhaps people will come to their senses and allow us to begin burning again by then.

I hear that the saw on the feller/buncher has quit. I guess I'll mosey on out there and see what's going on.

[Gary_C]

Dodgy, that small tract is an unusual situation. It is under the responsibility of the Scientific and Natural division of the MN DNR. It is a side hill that is about one third red pine plantation and the rest is prairie grass. The S & N people are not allowed to do forestry work so they came to the forestry people and asked to have the entire stand clearcut and sold for pulp. The foresters told them that softwood pulp prices were very low right now so the S & N group then wanted it cut and burned. The foresters refused to do that and hired some logger to thin the stand and he did some hand felling and trimming and said it was too much work and gave the job back. He still paid for the whole job, but it was probably only a few dollars per cord.

I picked the sale up for $3.50 per cord for 105 cords and planned to cut it last winter when I had an equipment problem with my harvester and now plan to cut it within a month. One of the restrictions the S & N have put on the job is dry, frozen ground only. I think that is just to be obstinate as it is light sandy soil.

The DNR foresters are more and more leaving it to operator selection as I think they are tired of painting trees and having loggers complain they do not know how to mark trees. 
When I cut something like this where it has been thinned once, I will take worst first and then try for some type of tree spacing as best I can. Though it may not be the best for me, I always treat state owned land and private land as well as if it belonged to me. The state land actually does. 

[tonich]

I look forward to seeing Tom's pics .

So do I!
Pictures speak louder than descriptions. 

[Tom]

 


Picking up some sticks (pickup sticks)

straightening them up. 
The row that was thinned can be seen (in absence) on the other side of the end of the logs being picked up.

Putting them on the trailer

[Tom]

 


Lining up a twitch

taking the twitch to the loader

The average size of stump being left

[Tom]

 


Shane, the owner of the "one crew"  logging company

eating lunch

The feller/buncher blew a fuse.
Howard Noble fixes it.

[Tom]

 


Howard Noble, the Feller Buncher operator and
his machine.  The machine that does all the thoughtful
work.  You can't see the teeth on the saw because it is running.

[LeeB]

Did you feed them peas Tom or did the bring their own lunch?

[Tom]

I offered them a cup of coffee,but they didn't want it.   I'm fresh out of peas
One did ask if I had a high blood pressure pill he could take. 

[SwampDonkey]

I couldn't drink coffee either working in the woods. Some can, but I get too dry. I could take a barrel of water though. 

[Gary_C]

Nice pictures. How do they delimb? Or are all the limbs gone by the time they get to the landing.

[tonich]

Nice pictures, Tom!
Thanks! 

[Tom]

The trunks are relatively free of limbs already, Gary.  Most of the limbs of the top are fragile and come off in the skidding.  They have a delimbing gate for those that are stubborn but seldom have to use it.

Thanks Tonich.  I wish I could figure out how to show the thinned rows, but quarters are too tight for the camera to show what is happening.  Maybe after the equipment leaves, I can find an angle that will better show what they did.

[SwampDonkey]

Tom it's almost impossible to show thinning with a camera unless your up in the air looking down. And that might me quite a feat. They bring any sky cranes along? You could stand on the hook with the camera.

[Ron Scott]

Tom,
Is any chipping being done? How is the slash and top debris being handled?

[beenthere]

Fly a camera up on a balloon or a kite....seems we had a discussion of this a few years back. 

[SwampDonkey]

  Yeah I remember, but I don't think it came to fruition. I did find a birthday balloon lodged up in a fir tree last fall. You up here taking pictures again beenthere?

[Tom]

Ron,
There is very little slash and top debris.  What exists has either been left in the rows (needles and twigs the size of your thumb) or pushed to a pile at the side of the landing.  The pile is about the size of a couple of pickup trucks and mostly contains hardwood switches of the 2-3 inch range.  These pines were deliberately planted close and there is very little crown, accept for a tuff at the top.  The mill accepts two inch tops, so not much was left on the ground, as of my inspection last night.

The remaining hardwoods that were run over by the skidder, will either be clipped off by chainsaw later (by me or some help} and the rest bush hogged.  If I could stay ahead of it with herbacide, I would do it.  Hardwoods are prolific here and take over any opening to the sky from root sprouts and stumps.  If it isn't to rough, I may be able to control them with mowing.   The closing crown will help, but that is years down the road.

Swamp Donkey
I have some liquid elixer in the house, from a witch in the swamp, that may get me high enough to get an overhead shot.  The doctor has warned me against using it, but I might experiment with my neighbor.  I could slip him a glassful administer him a dose and hand him the camera while he is still in reach.  Think That'll work?

[SwampDonkey]

If that don't work, maybe mix some pine straw or saw palmetto greenery in a batch of cookies and serve coffee. Might just get someone high enough for a grand view. 

Yeah, I was looking at them pictures and couldn't see a lot of slash. The trees aren't big enough around to make much of a limb diameter. I here ya on the hardwood, and can see in a couple of the break time pictures that there is all kinds of hardwood switches growing. You have your work cut out for ya. I am thinking pine regeneration has a tough go of it.

[SwampDonkey]

Edited post above. My brain was thinking something and my fingers typed something else.  Had to do with the pine slash.

[Jeff]

Edited post above. My brain was thinking something and my fingers typed something else. 

NOTE TO SELF:  SAVE COPY OF THIS QUOTE TO INSERT INTO MOST OF DONK'S POSTS.

[SwampDonkey]

Might be a good thing. 

[semologger]

looks like my job i am cutting right now. Your trees look like they have some more lenght than mine. How many loads are they running a day? I wish i could take all my slash back in the woods. It has to be removed from the pine stand. I am taking out every 4th row and thinning the 3 left over. How many trees per acre are you leaving? They want 250 to 300 left on this job. Its 50 acres. Hoe many acres you have?

[thecfarm]

Seems odd to see equipment in the woods with no chains on the tires.First time I saw it I was surprised.Looks good.

[OneWithWood]

Tom, you could do a Google Earth and draw lines on it to show what was done.  I bet Jeff could help you with that.  He needs something to do to keep him away from the TV.

[LeeB]

How old is this stand?

[Tom]

OWW.  I can do that and have marked a lot of the things on this property as I have changed them.  When the next satellite picture is available, I'll be able to match the differences.

Leeb

I have a total of 47 acres.  there are 6 acres along the driveway that is newly planted, this spot is 7 acres and was planted in 1992.  The thinning produced six loads at 9-10 chords per load.  I haven't the numbers for today.

The remaining trees are in rows 12 feet apart with the missing (thinned)  third row making a 24 foot opening.  The rows were cross thinned to 10 foot centers.  I don't know what that comes to per acre.

There is another six acres behind this  and a 10 acre ridge behind that, containing hardwood and dedicated as wildlife passage. 

Another 20 acres is north of that and it contains some loblolly pine and hardwood as it falls to the creek.  It is pretty much wet swamp most of the time. Some of the land is in saltwater marsh and not included in the total.

[pineywoods]

I just had a 10 acre plot thinned, worked out almost exactly like Tom's. Only difference mine was all volunteer, not planted, about the same age. Look at the growth rings on the stumps, the outer ones are real close. Mine had just about stopped growing. Hired a local crew of 3 brothers, all 3rd generation loggers. They spread all the slash back down the open lanes. That keeps the weeds down and in a couple of years it will be all rotted and thick with new volunteer seedlings. It all went for pulp. I was surprised at the payout, more than I expected.
Got another 30 acres that needs thinning but the price has taken a dive..

[SwampDonkey]

this spot is 7 acres and was planted in 1992.  The thinning produced six loads at 9-10 chords per load. 

The remaining trees are in rows 12 feet apart with the missing (thinned)  third row making a 24 foot opening.  The rows were cross thinned to 10 foot centers.  I don't know what that comes to per acre.

I think ~270 trees/acre

[SwampDonkey]

messed up

[SwampDonkey]

Actually Tom, you have to look at it from the stand point of the tree.  I get tripped up with that sometimes.

43560 ft² x tree + 43560 ft² x tree = 272 trees/acre
  240 ft² x acre      120 ft² x acre 
                          2

[SwampDonkey]

If you work it out on a grid like this, we'll call option # 2

     12               24                12                24                 12
o            o                        o            o                        o            o

                                                                                                  10

o            o                        o            o                        o            o

                                                                                                   10

o            o                        o            o                        o            o

                                                                                                   10

o            o                        o            o                        o            o

                                                                                                   10

o            o                        o            o                        o            o

                                                                                                    10

o            o                        o            o                        o            o

That's an area of 84 feet x 50 feet, with 36 trees, represents 4200 ft²

43560 ft²/acre x 36 trees   = 373 trees/acre   take your pick
    4200 ft²

Only trouble is it doesn't hold up if you use different sized sample plots.

[Tom]

I don't know what is right, but I like the 372 trees per acre better than the 272 when I stuff my wallet. 

[SwampDonkey]

Yeah I know that train of thought is what I like too. Since the spacing is not uniform, but there is a pattern I'm sure there is still a mathematical way to compute it. It's a lot easier to calculate when the spacing is uniform that is for sure.

[isawlogs]

Try using 10 on one side and 18 on the other .

[SwampDonkey]

Yes, I did that also, here was the result.

242  trees/acre


It's probably some crazy quadratic math

[Tom]

I don't like that one as much. 

Maybe if you were to hold a prism up at arms length and count the empy spaces, or sumthin'.

[SwampDonkey]

It's perplexing.

[WDH]

I guess that I am going to have to come down there and cruise it .

[Jeff]

http://www.forestryforum.com/calcs/spacing.htm

[nsmike]

I used the formula for 12 ft between rows and 10 ft between trees for 363 trees per acre if reduce it by 1/3  for the missing rows you get 242 trees per acre. I suspect that you would have one additional outside row which  you could add in if you know its length/10 but it would only apply to the outside row.
Mike

[SwampDonkey]

I think Marcel's and nsmike's is the only way you can compute it, because you can't get more than 363 trees in an acre at 12 x 10 foot spacing, and there is 1/3 less....

so 242 trees/acre


The way I computed it a while back was this.....

43560 ft²/acre        = 242 trees/acre
(12+6 ft) x (5 + 5 ft)
            tree

It just seems so low. Too bad Tom, I tried to get you more trees.

[Ron Scott]

Why not just do a 100% tree count and then you will know with some accuracy.

[SwampDonkey]

For sure, eh?

I know when we do sample plots we always think in terms of crown space of the trees being spaced or planted and how many of those growing spaces can we fit inside a sample plot and ultimately how many in  a unit of area, hectares or acres. I know that a ha is 10000 m² and we use a sample plot size of 40 m², which is 1/250th of a ha. If I have an average of 8 in my plot I have 2000 trees/ha, if I have 10 I have 2500 trees/ha. 2500 or 2m x 2m or (6.5 feet apart) is the ultimate spacing when thinning and planting softwood. 1.82m (6 foot) for hardwood or 3000 trees/ha.

[WDH]

242 trees per acre is a gracious plenty for slash.  Too dense and they will stagnate.  They are much more persnickity than loblolly.

[semologger]

I am just takeing 10th acre plots. I stand in the row i just took out and make a circle. 37 feet to the outside ring. I just count my trees in the circle so i know my basel area. I have my eye down now on thinning so i am not takeing many plots. I need to take out every other tree in each row. So if i have a row missing alot of trees I will leave a few heavy on the other row. That way i can keep my trees per acre up.