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Author Topic: Which saw to use for milling?  (Read 1739 times)

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Offline Rockfarmer

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Re: Which saw to use for milling?
« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2008, 02:33:23 pm »
You guys are right  ;D I wont do it again  ;D Its just so tempting cause I got gals of the stuff sitting around. I just came back from the Husky dealer and got some bar oil  :o 15$ a gal  :o No I wont mix it with waste oil but its tempting cause I got 100 gals of that too  ;D I might cut it with some cheapo poulan oil though  ;D The girls are cooking in the kitchen and they kicked me out of there  >:( got to go kill some more trees  8)

Offline Al_Smith

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Re: Which saw to use for milling?
« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2008, 01:24:05 am »
You guys are right  ;D I wont do it again  ;D Its just so tempting cause I got gals of the stuff sitting around. I just came back from the Husky dealer and got some bar oil  :o 15$ a gal  :o   
Say what ,15 US dollars for one US gallon ? Good heavens .

Well ,it must be good stuff . :D

Offline Captain

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Re: Which saw to use for milling?
« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2008, 03:56:33 am »
There is absolutely a difference in 2 stroke oils (TC vs TC-W or TC-W3).  Below is an excerpt from a ultralight aircraft website that explains it better than I can :

There are several oils for an ultralight pilot to select from, and everybody has their favorite. Others are confused about claims as to which one they should use and why.
How about oil injected versus the common fuel and oil pre-mix? What the difference between an oil formulate for water-cooled engines and an oil made for air-cooled engines?

To understand how two-cycle oils work in your engine, we need to cover some basic training on engine operating conditions and oil formulation.
 
Outboard engines are characterized by their constant speed, high output operation. They are usually set at a desired high speed and continue at speed until the destination is reached and then throttled down. Also, they are constantly cooled with fresh, cool, non-recirculated water. Chain saws, on the other hand, are a high action operation. They are constantly started and stopped, used for short periods and frequent overloads are its hard place in life.

Additionally they have smaller displacements than outboards and are air-cooled. By understanding how the operation of an engine can affect the oil used and how an oil can affect the engine, we can better appreciate the difference between a water cooled two-cycle oil and one formulated for an air-cooled two-cycle engine.

Water-cooled two-cycle engine oils require higher levels of a heavy oil to prevent piston and cylinder wall scuffing. Because of their high average piston temperature, lighter oils evaporate too quickly from the piston cylinder contact area. The heavy base oil, which vaporizes at very high temperatures, resists evaporation and remains in place to provide lubrication to the piston and cylinder. Air-cooled oil formulations must have much lower levels of the heavy base oil than water-cooled engine oils.

These oils require only a small amount of heavy oil to pro vide protection against piston scuffing and seizure at peak temperatures. Heavy levels of heavy base oils in an oil formulated for air-cooled engines can cause engines deposits.

These deposits form as a result of incomplete burning of the heavy oil. The deposits can cause piston ring sticking and can eventually plug or disrupt the flow of the exhaust system, resulting in power loss and possible engine damage. Detergent additives should not be used in water-cooled two-cycle oil formulations. When burned with the fuel, detergents can produce an ash deposit in the cylinders. This ash deposit can possibly foul spark plugs, form exhaust port deposits which cause loss of power, and possibly create cylinder hot spots that can cause destructive pre-ignition.

On the other hand, the only way to protect air- cooled two-cycle engines against piston ring sticking at their high peak temperatures is to include some detergent additives in the oil formulation. Detergents

provide high temperature deposit control not available from other additives used in the oil. However, in the air-cooled engine, any ash deposits that could form from the detergents are dislodged by engine vibration and exhausted from the engine.

Now is a good time for a lesson on ash. Ash is the non-combustible residue of a lubrication oil or fuel. Detergent additives contain metallic derivatives, such as calcium, barium and magnesium sulfonates that are common sources of ash. Ash deposits can impair engine efficiency and power.

But, detergents are an important component of engine oil that help control varnish deposits, piston ring deposits and rust (yes, rust) by keeping insoluble combustion particles from adhering to metal surfaces. In some cases, detergents neutralize acids formed from combustion of the fuel mixture. Ash deposits may have a grayish color, whereas carbon residue is usually black and sooty.

Carbon residue, on the other hand, is different from ash. Carbon residue is formed from unburned and partially burned fuel, and from burning of the crankcase lubricant. Water from condensation of combustion products along with carbon residue from fuel contribute to engine piston deposits. Carbon de posits are normally black and have a sooty appearance.

Oils formulated for outboard engines require a large amount of antioxidant and dispersant additives to control deposit formation since these oils do not contain detergents. Outboard oils also contain a large amount of rust inhibitors because an outboard engine's continuous contact with water makes rust prevention an important requirement.
Air-cooled oils contain lower amounts of antioxidants and dispersants, since the detergent additives do most of the work of preventing deposit accumulation. These oils also contain rust inhibitor additives to protect against rust that can form from water that enters the engine due to condensation.

So, how do some oils claim to be multi-purpose or formulated for water and air-cooled engines? These oils have usually been formulated to meet the National Marine Manufacturers Association (N M MA) TC-WI I TM or TC-W3 TM specification. These specifications require the oils be tested under rigorous test conditions. An air-cooled engine test is part of these requirements.

Therefore, a manufacturer can claim multi-purpose applications. Although these oils have been tested in an air-cooled engine and will lubricate an air-cooled engine, an oil formulated specifically for air-cooled engine use may be the best choice for your engine. 

Just what oil does Rotax recommend for their two- cycle engines? Rotax recommends using an oil meeting American Petroleum Institute (API) Service Classification TC. API TC is a designation for high performance two-cycle engines (typically 50 to 500 cc) excluding outboard engines. This performance rating is determined by engine tests that evaluate (1) anti-scuff characteristics, (2) piston ring sticking and engine cleanliness, and (3) pre-ignition. In the TC category, a 50 cc and a 350 cc Yamaha engine are used to evaluate the oil.

Engines that require the fuel and oil to be pre mixed should use a two percent (50:1) concentration of oil in the fuel. It is very important that the fuel/oil mix is correct. In other words, don't add too much or too little oil to the fuel. If a little does good, more oil added to the fuel doesn't necessarily do better. In fact, too much oil will lead to excessive deposits and could also cause excessive exhaust smoke and spark plug fouling. Not enough oil can lead to piston skirt and cylinder wall scuffing and eventual engine damage.

Gasoline containing alcohol (ethanol and/or methanol) should not be used unless permitted by the engine manufacturer. Alcohol-containing fuels can absorb water and separate from the gasoline. Additionally, the alcohol may not be compatible with some fuel system components, such as plastic and rubber compounds.

Rotax also recommends "de-carboning" the engine after every 50 hours of operation. This procedure is designed to remove excessive piston deposits to check for possible stuck piston rings. Rotax allows up to 0.040 inches of soot and carbon buildup on the pis ton crown before removal of the carbon is required. Not only does Rotax recommend an API TC oil for the 447 and 503 air-cooled engines, but also for the 532 and 582 engines run at internal temperatures similar to the air-cooled Rotax engines, as evidenced by their use of the same spark plug.

Special precautions should be taken when switching oils, even between the same brands. Because of the special formulation of air-cooled engine oil, these oils generally are not compatible with water-cooled engine oils. Caution should be exercised to ensure that these products are not mixed together. Special precautions should be taken when changing from a product designed primarily for water-cooled engines to an air-cooled product, particularly in oil injection systems where the undiluted oils would be mixed together. It is recommended that the oil reservoir and lines be drained when changing to another formulation. In applications where the oil is premixed with the fuel, it is recommended the fuel tank(s) be drained and filters changed.

By Charles Kudolis (Excerpted from EXPERIMENTER, April, 1994)
 



Offline Rockfarmer

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Re: Which saw to use for milling?
« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2008, 08:23:03 am »
Wow Capt, thanks for that! I do have an old Rotax 503 in the cellar somewhere collecting dust  :D Those ultralight motors are pretty cool with the twin plugs and all. I'd like to have that on one of my old sleds  ;D

Offline Rockfarmer

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Re: Which saw to use for milling?
« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2008, 08:35:40 am »
I did some more cutting with the 041 FB yesterday. I got the saw to idle nice  8) After it got dark I put it on the bench and cleaned it out good and noticed one of my exhaust port muffler screws was backed out about 1/4"  :o I tighten'd that up. I also figured out that the bar adjuster has a notch that should ride on the case of the saw, it wasn't. To get that right the bar studs had to be backed out for the thin plate to come off. I took that off and blew it out good. I put the air nozzle into the bar stud hole and  :o :o :o boom, got a facefull of bar oil  :o ;D ;D It went everywhere. Good thing I had my safety glasses on  ;D (now I know not to do that :D) got it all back together, turned up the oil, tested it, all good!!!!  8)

Offline timberfaller390

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Re: Which saw to use for milling?
« Reply #25 on: November 27, 2008, 09:00:41 am »
It ain't good for your saws health to blow compressed air into the bar oil jet.
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Offline Rockfarmer

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Re: Which saw to use for milling?
« Reply #26 on: November 27, 2008, 09:33:25 am »
Ya, it aint good for my health either!!  :D

Offline stonebroke

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Re: Which saw to use for milling?
« Reply #27 on: November 27, 2008, 11:03:32 am »
I just paid 8.79$ for bar oil at my Husky dealer. Guess He is a pretty good one.

Stonebroke

Offline dnalley

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Re: Which saw to use for milling?
« Reply #28 on: November 27, 2008, 01:04:28 pm »
This may be a little off topic, but I have a 6 hp johnson outboard and there is an insignia at the fuel hookup that says 100/1. Is this enough oil?  Been running it on this and seems to be ok, but lots of times I've run whatever mixed oil I have on hand.  Never realized there was such a difference in water cooled and air cooled oil.  Now I"m really wondering about this sticker that says 100 to 1 :o  Thanks

Offline Al_Smith

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Re: Which saw to use for milling?
« Reply #29 on: November 27, 2008, 01:31:23 pm »
 There always has been and there always will be conflicting views on what mix ratio and in fact what brand of oil to use .Some people really get aggresive about it ,not I .

I get the greatest amusement baiting people about their oils etc .Some people really get their panties in a knot over this stuff . :D Then too some people get real personal if you say their brand of saw or their favorite builder is no better or worse than the next one .Oh sometimes my orneryness gets the best of me . :)

In my opinion ,water cooled or not 100 to 1 is a tad on the weak side but a thousand other people might want to argue that .

 


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