Author Topic: one man saw vs. two man saw and a few questions (Read 3441 times)

rebocardo · « **on:** July 11, 2003, 03:55:37 pm »

Greetings,

I am sort of a newbie when it comes to cutting real trees/lumber. I have split and cut many logs into cords for firewood using a sawzall, bow saw, and axe. I have felled trees from 6 to 13 inches using all the above tools.

I have just gotten my first/own gas powered chain saw. I bought a Homelite 20 inch, it was defective out of the box, so I got a Poulan 18 inch saw instead. The problem is it is small for what I have to cut up, though I feel at ease using it.

There are fallen trees in my area (Atlanta GA) that I am turning into firewood. Problem is the trunks are ranging from 26-36 inches wide. I do not have the money or expertise yet to use a big chain saw without killing myself, imo.

I always wear safety gear (glasses, hard hat, leather gloves, good pants, thick leather steel toe boots) , though now I am going to get chaps too.

What I want to do is slice the trunks into 12 inch round slabs while they are on the ground, huff them into my truck bed, and then split them at home with the sledge hammer or build my own air/hydraulic splitter.

I think my ideal tool would be a two man saw six feet long, though they appear a bit tougher to use than a 4 1/2 foot one man saw.

Do you think a one man saw 4.5 ft long would suffice for cutting a trunk 36 inches wide and 20-30 feet long into one foot thick sections?

On the lower branch of one white oak that fell, the branch itself is 22 inches plus and sitting about 8 feet above the ground, about ten feet up the truck. Is it possible to undercut it with a one man saw? Or should I tie the branch off to the back of my truck with cable and just cut through from the top. I am worried about having 800 pounds of limb splitting when I cut it and swinging back towards me while I am standing on the trunk. The wood is very solid, the tree fell over because of excessive rain.

Thank you in advance for any answers.

If it matters, I am doing this because people here throw away so much good wood. So, I am going to heat my house (God willing) next year with wood and sell some cords of wood to make money in the richer sections of Georgia, like Marietta.

Tom · « **Reply #1 on:** July 11, 2003, 05:35:40 pm »

Your poulan will suffice until you learn enough to shop for a professional saw if you don't crowd it and let it take its own time. The important thing is to keep the chain sharp and that will take the strain off of the engine.

The 18" bar length will cut 30 inches. That's a lot of wood.

learning to read the pressures in a fallen tree is better learned from someone with experience. If you have any doubts about what is to happen, don't do it. Undercutting stops peeling and if the limb is stressed upwards is the way to cut it. You always want your kerf opening up from the bar, never pinching shut on it.

You learn real fast that the optimum way to dismantle a tree isn't always to make the biggest cuts first. Start with the end of the limbs and cut toward the trunk, clearing as you go. Limbs under the trunk may be supporting it. If you cut them you could end up with the trunk in your lap.

If you cut the wood into 12 inch rounds it would be easier to split the rounds into halves or quarters with a maul rather than try to load the whole thing. A splitting maul is a handy tool and it doesn't always pay to use the biggest one you can find. Paul Bunyan used big stuff but ordinary folks are more comfortable with a tool they can work with all day.

Two man saws? Naw.....your chainsaw is all you need. Your next one might be a 20" bar though.

Pay attention! Watch a professional! ask questions. Macho isn''t where its all at. Sometimes trees don't just hurt you, they kill you. Heavy wood seldom bounces. If you are in the way, you might as well be a feather in a tornado.

Kevin · « **Reply #2 on:** July 11, 2003, 09:49:30 pm »

Good start, pay the money and get a good saw 60+cc /24" bar and a wood splitter that you can tow behind the vehicle.
You want to handle the the wood as little as possible.
When you get tired and the saw gets heavy, quit because that's when something will happen.

Sawyerfortyish · « **Reply #3 on:** July 13, 2003, 06:37:32 am »

Am I missing somthing here. The 6-13" stuff is firewood but he's talking 20"plus stuff thats saw timber worth a lot more than firewood and cut it with a crosscut saw. Do you have a death wish or something maybe a hundred yrs ago. They don't call them misery whips for fun .Use the chainsaw start out on the small limbs and relieve the pressure from the top of the tree back to the trunk. Be careful about the side pressure on the limbs that will knock you off your feet.
Do you own these trees? why not get someone to buy the logs and leave the real firewood there for you to cut. After the trunk of the tree is gone it"s easier and safer to cut your wood. You won't cut and split very much of that big stuff that's work. Sell it instead pocket the money save your back stick to the smaller stuff you will make more wood faster and easier than killing yourself on the big stuff.

Kevin · « **Reply #4 on:** July 13, 2003, 06:56:36 am »

Quote

On the lower branch of one white oak that fell, the branch itself is 22 inches plus and sitting about 8 feet above the ground, about ten feet up the truck. Is it possible to undercut it with a one man saw? Or should I tie the branch off to the back of my truck with cable and just cut through from the top.

This is very dangerous.
I take lots of these down and I do it while tied off to a rope sectioning the limb and taking one piece at a time.
There is a science and what is called SWL(safe working limit) on the gear and equipment used in preforming this task.
The safe way is what I described above, if you use a block from above you'll be placing twice the load on the block and whatever it happens to be tied off to, so the weight now climbs to 1600lbs. instead of 800.
Difficult to comment on how to take it down without seeing it.

rebocardo · « **Reply #5 on:** July 27, 2003, 05:32:51 am »

> The 18" bar length will cut 30 inches

Is there a place where I can read about how to do this. I have not tried to cut anything bigger then 18 inches with the saw because I am too worried about kickback.

Though I have cut down small trees in my woods and for my boss two days ago I earned my first money cutting down trees on the 24th!

We had a bad storm in GA (always) and my neighbor's rotted tree got hit by lightening, broke 12 feet up and fell/grazed her roof enough to crack the house windows and break part of the roof. There were three other trees in the cluster just as bad leaning towards the house with the possiblity of taking the house completely out.

She was not home so I blocked off the street with safety tape and barrales so noone would touch the live wires in the street until the police arrived.

They were pine trees about 16-17 inches about 4 feet above the ground and two of them grew together like they came from one stump. They looked about 50 feet high. So, I attached a 100 ft line to them, put a lot of tension on the line to remove any slack and fell them mostly uphill away from the house. Two of the trees I used a steel wedge to knock them over after a decent back cut because they were so rotted I did not want them to fall back unto the saw.

The trickey one was the last one, I had to shake it because of all the broken and rotted branches were 20+ feet up in the air and would have come down at any time and at least seriously hurt me. While I was shaking the tree with my truck it started to wave back and forth and looked like it was going to break in thirds.

So, I decided not to fall it uphill away from the house but right next to it, parallel about 12 feet away because there was no way to fight gravity with this tree without risking the rotted trunk breaking into bits. It was not leaning sideways so I thought the stress of the cable on the trunk would be a lot less and be able to control the fall.

All the while since I am doing this difficult job, I have a crazy neighbor yelling advice and telling me everything he thinks is wrong with what I am doing. I don't have the cable up high enough, I am falling them in the wrong direction, etc, etc. So, after an hour and a half of this crazy stuff I walk over and yell back "have you ever cut trees for a living". Siilence, so then I yell louder the same thing. More silence. Then I said something like I have not cashed the check, you want the money and want to finish the job for me? More silence.

I had a lot of trouble putting a small notch in because the tree was so rotted the tree kept closing on the saw. So finally I get enough of a cut and knock the notch out with a sledge and clean it out with a long pry bar. So, I put the saw down, move away at a 45 degree angle, and I am debating if I should even attempt the back cut without someone in the truck pulling because the outer part of the tree is like sawdust. All of a sudden this guy comes behind me screaming it is going to fall the wrong way and just as I turn around to look at him the tree starts cracking, so I run for it.

Fell exactly where I wanted it. Though I was so angry that this loud mouth attention getter almost got me killed.

I think the only reason this went so well was I kept praying to God for help, insight, and calmness. Towards the middle I decided to take a quick lunch my wife brought me to collect my thoughts.

So, I am $160 richer, my neighbor with the trees is EXTREMELY thankful that the house was not squished flat because we had another storm coming. She gave me two referrals, one a neighbor up the street that wants a tree down and her sister. Plus, she wants me to come back and trim her other trees over her roof after the insurance company comes.

Best of all, the $160 makes my $139 chain saw paid for 100% :-)

Fla._Deadheader · « **Reply #6 on:** July 27, 2003, 05:58:40 am »

Sounds to me like you are one of the luckiest people in the world.
I used to take down trees after work, on another job.
First question is, what would you have done if ANYTHING went wrong and you dropped a tree on
1. The house,
2. A person that just walked up without you knowing it,
3. Your truck, or, someone elses
4. Someone elses house
5. Your Widow's former husband
I am not trying to be a smart a**, but, in today's world, there is a lawyer just waiting to take you to the cleaner.
Your questions above are very good ones. Listen to these guys. They do a lot of things here, as Professionals. They will all give info freely, but, BE CAREFUL.
I know a logger that grew up in the woods. Now he has 1 foot because he was thinking 1 step ahead of where he should have been.
Anytime a tree is down, there is a limb that is twisted the wrong way and will act like a giant spring and wipe you out.
ESPECIALLY, be VERY careful of cutting a smaller standing tree that has another leaning into it. IT WILL take yer head off, CHIN FIRST.
Also, I would NEVER use a hand saw for what you are describing. I have a 4' one-two man crosscut that we use for another purpose. A chainsaw is a good tool, but, ya GOTTA understand what yer doing, before pulling the rope. Good Luck.

Kevin · « **Reply #7 on:** July 27, 2003, 08:35:24 am »

rebocardo,
You are in over your head, take that money and get a chainsaw course.
Get a job as a ground man for an insured tree service and learn how to do this work safely.
You have been extremely lucky so far.

http://www.osha-slc.gov/SLTC/logging_advisor/manual/manual.html

Sawyerfortyish · « **Reply #8 on:** July 27, 2003, 01:18:45 pm »

You have been extreamly lucky so far but what deadheader kevin and I are trying to say is get a professional to show you the ropes so to speak because a lot can happen. If you don't have insurance your risking everything you have for 165 bucks.Maybe where you are that's a fair price but it sounds dirt cheap to me. Most tree service companies won't start there truck for less than 3 or 4 hundred or more for one tree. I'm in the logging business not by choice but because i need logs for my mill. I would not take down trees near a house. I'm not insured for that.I turn down residential tree work daily. Get someone to show you the right way to do what you seem like your going to do anyway before someone gets screwed up for life or even worse KILLED. Houses and equipment are replacable but people aint.

biziedizie · « **Reply #9 on:** July 28, 2003, 03:37:00 pm »

I just read post#5 and I had to read it again and if that still wasn't enough I read it a third time.

Man oh man you must have someone looking over you cuz that wasn't a very smart thing to do.

The only tree that I will cut is a limbed one laying on the ground. I don't care how much money is involved I will NOT drop a tree. There's guys that do this everyday that know what their doing and my life is worth more then a few hundred bucks.

Steve

rebocardo · « **Reply #10 on:** July 28, 2003, 05:50:16 pm »

I will probably take a chain saw course. I have gone through almost the whole OSHA site and most of this site on the safety stuff about saw use and tree felling and bucking. I have dropped a few trees before, I just have not used a chain saw before.

re: the hand saw
Just to clarify my need, mostly I want it to cut up some big stuff a tree service (26 inch wide maple) dropped off into my driveway for me. I want some round slabs for tables and maybe some maple blocks (6" x 6" x 3' ) from the logs. I am not cutting down trees with it.

> 1. The house,

I told her that there was a chance of the worse one hitting her house if it did not go perfect, though it was not likely. Everyone was out of the house and away across the street.

> 2. A person that just walked up without you knowing it,

He was 100 feet closer than he should have been that is for sure.

> 3. Your truck, or, someone elses

I blocked off the street with orange tape where anyone could have driven and had everyone move their cars. My truck was 100 feet (at the end of the cable) from the tree up a dead end. I measured the trees when they were down, 50-63 feet, which is what I estimated it was.

> 4. Someone elses house

It was not near any other house or property.

5. Your Widow's former husband
I will try to avoid that. That is why I ask for and heed advice.

Kevin · « **Reply #11 on:** July 28, 2003, 06:09:28 pm »

The difference between a professional arborist and a tree hack is the professional knows where the tree is going to go and the hack only hopes it will go where he wants .
I would never risk dropping a tree next to someones house without at least one good rigging rope on it.
You also need someone else there with you to call the ambulance.
I'm not trying to be smart but it's inexperienced people doing what you're doing that drives up insurance rates for the guys that know what they're doing.
I'm not saying don't do it but get in with a qualified person and learn from them.

Kevin · « **Reply #12 on:** July 28, 2003, 06:19:34 pm »

Here's a few tree removal pictures --Photos MUST be in the Forestry Forum gallery!!!!!--.com/album/26601181CpgNfHoYcR]Birch Removal[/url]

Ron Scott · « **Reply #13 on:** July 28, 2003, 06:35:27 pm »

A person was killed a couple weeks ago in the UP by falling a tree. I don't know the details, maybe Chet does.

Many experienced tree fallers won't fall trees around or near buildings. This is "specialized" work with special risks.

Kevin · « **Reply #14 on:** July 28, 2003, 06:39:02 pm »

There's one down on a guys roof down the street, I wouldn't even think of taking it down without a responsible and experienced ground crew.

Kevin · « **Reply #15 on:** July 28, 2003, 08:00:37 pm »

rebocardo, some good reading on this subject can be found in a book called The Fundementals Of General Tree Work by Gerald Beranek

rebocardo · « **Reply #16 on:** July 29, 2003, 08:55:06 pm »

Unless I am in the woods I normally use a line to direct a tree. I used a 3/8 chain wrapped around the trunk (twice if the tree is thin so you do not crush through the trunk) and 1/4 steel cable rated for 2500 pounds working load with 3/8 hooks and clevis. Not rope. I learned this technique from some tree removal guys that use to work for a city for the smaller trees. I though that was the proper way to do it.

I had thought about working for someone locally, it seems safety is a rope tied around your waist cutting a tree apart with a chain saw thirty feet off the ground. From what I have seen locally people do not even wear helmets.

I will check out that book!

rebocardo · « **Reply #17 on:** July 29, 2003, 09:26:02 pm »

I looked at those Birch pictures. That would be way more tree than I would attempt because I hate climbing trees. If I have to go up more than 15 feet (18 feet reaching for the chain to direct it) on a ladder I do not bother with the tree. Plus, I do not have the equipment or help for the climbing.

I do not do trees leaning on things including other trees or houses because I know how dangerous it is. If a tree is under a lot of tension from being supported by its branches, I roll it over with a cable/truck so I can cut the branches off unsprung.

Chet · « **Reply #18 on:** July 29, 2003, 09:47:00 pm »

Discussions like this really bother me. Some things cannot be learned from books or discussion forums and this is DEFINATELY one of them.

Mark M · « **Reply #19 on:** July 29, 2003, 09:59:59 pm »

Rebocardo

Here is a site that has some excellent safety information.

http://www.forestapps.com/

I bought their Ebook for $15 and it has a lot of safety information. I did a lot of reading before I picked up my chain saw after a 10 year absence and there was a lot of stuff I didn't know about.

I've been using a chain saw for over 30 years and have cut down a few trees but there is no way I will drop one if there is the slightest chance it could fall on something or someone. If I was younger and more agile I would take some courses in tree climbing and arborist work.

Here's what can happen is you miscalculate:

There is more at http://www.forestryforum.com/cgi-bin/board/YaBB.pl?board=Business;action=display;num=1042655711;start=

Good luck and work safe

Mark

Kevin · « **Reply #20 on:** July 30, 2003, 05:43:52 am »

When working a tree from above safety is actually being secured in two places just in case one should fail.
The synthetic rope that is used in rigging is rated at 9K lbs.+.
The safe working load on that rope is about 900 lbs.
Rope is the standard in tree removal.
Anyone who works under a tree without a hardhat is a hack, you won't learn from a hack you'll just become one.
For tree felling, Professional Timber Falling by Douglas Dent is a good read.

rebocardo · « **Reply #21 on:** July 30, 2003, 10:20:36 am »

Yea, I saw that cottonwood picture. It is scary, looks like 40+ inches at the base and probably weighs at least 12 tons. I had a locust tree at my old house a few years ago while living in MA, about that size and it covered three houses including mine.

I sucked it up and paid $750 to a tree service to come and get it. They took an aerial crane 100 feet high, cut the crown and lifted it over the houses and dumped it complete into a chipper mounted on the back of the dump truck they had. I would hate to fall into that thing. The father and (3) son team had the whole tree down, cut up, and gone in about an hour. It was worth the money just for the show :-D

Fla._Deadheader · « **Reply #22 on:** August 02, 2003, 07:28:01 am »

This what yer wantin to do with a chainsaw

We use a 20" bar to cut 36+" pieces.

Kevin · « **Reply #23 on:** August 02, 2003, 03:43:38 pm »

I couldn't help but notice those tenners don't protect much of the ankle area eh?

Chet · « **Reply #24 on:** August 02, 2003, 04:59:46 pm »

Ain't never seen dem knee lenght chaps niether, eh.

Kevin · « **Reply #25 on:** August 02, 2003, 05:25:14 pm »

I think that's the common dress code in that area because of the heat.
Even the tree guys work in shorts.
I know how bad it gets up here in the tree tops when it hits 80oF I can only imagine what they go through down that way.

Fla._Deadheader · « **Reply #26 on:** August 04, 2003, 05:57:50 am »

Yeah, we wear the same outfit for all occasions. Same outfit for diving, shopping, church, funerals, etc. If not, it's a lead-pipe cinch that yer a "tourista".

Specially if ya got them "lily White" stems, stickin outta them short chaps.

In the dead of winter, we wear Corduroy Chaps and MAYBE even,

Socks

I sweat so bad, that leather boots will rot in 6 months. The climate is NOT conducive to good drying conditions.

There was only 1 chunk of log where I went down. We keep the area around the mill cleaned up really well, ALL the time. I HATE to step over stuff and stumble around in a work area. I regularly use a rake to knock down the sawdust pile, even.

Kevin · « **Reply #27 on:** August 04, 2003, 06:08:43 am »

Hey Dead; We know you're safe, we're just pulling your pontoon.

Nobody could stay alive this long doing what you're doing without having at least one eye open.

Fla._Deadheader · « **Reply #28 on:** August 05, 2003, 06:56:04 pm »

I know DAT

That's anudder reason why I got these stinkin glasses. Tired of trying to figger out which side of the traffic to pass on???

Chet · « **Reply #29 on:** August 05, 2003, 07:31:40 pm »

Hey deadheader,
If Kev & I wore dat outfit up here in da dead of winter, our lily white legs would be popcicle sticks.

Kevin · « **Reply #30 on:** August 05, 2003, 07:34:16 pm »

Chet, when do you hang up the hooks for the season?

Chet · « **Reply #31 on:** August 05, 2003, 07:52:39 pm »

Don't hang them up. Started in the business in '74 and have not been off since, we work all year long. Winters can be tough, but then again dar ain't no bugs. Actually I prefer working in winter, I'm not a real fan of working in heat.

Kevin · « **Reply #32 on:** August 05, 2003, 07:55:19 pm »

I wouldn't think there would be enough customer demand to keep you busy through the winter months.

Chet · « **Reply #33 on:** August 05, 2003, 08:05:00 pm »

My sideline work slows way down in winter. But my day job subcontrating to the electric utilities is a 52 week a year job.

Kevin · « **Reply #34 on:** August 05, 2003, 08:18:02 pm »

How's the competition in your area?
I think we have about three tree services here that advertise.

Kevin · « **Reply #35 on:** August 05, 2003, 08:37:26 pm »

A little line work ...

Chet · « **Reply #36 on:** August 05, 2003, 08:51:19 pm »

Yup, dats the differance 'tween you and me Kev

You can hang from dem communication lines, but dar ain't no way I am going to hang from or touch high voltage 'lectric wires.

Kevin · « **Reply #37 on:** August 05, 2003, 09:00:29 pm »

I have Buckinghams Pro Series saddle which allows me to switch over to the bosun for that type of work.
Those flat sole boots I bought just for footlocking.

Mark M · « **Reply #38 on:** August 05, 2003, 09:22:56 pm »

Ski-use my ig-no-rance, but what da heck is footlocking?

Mark

Chet · « **Reply #39 on:** August 05, 2003, 09:33:34 pm »

Footlocking is a method of asending up a rope using your feet to hold your position while you regrip to pull yurself further up.

It's kinda like doing one arm pull-ups with 50# tied to yer ankles.

Kevin · « **Reply #40 on:** August 06, 2003, 05:33:30 am »

Mark;
In my case I take a single wrap of the rope around my left foot and lock the rope on top of my left boot with the right foot.
The rope gets locked between the top of the left foot and the bottom of the right.
You stand up on the rope , grasp the rope, release the footlock , let the slack drop and footlock the rope again advancing up the rope.

rebocardo · « **Reply #41 on:** September 04, 2003, 05:11:04 pm »

I ended up getting a Husky 365 and a 28 inch bar from Baileys along with low kickback 72v chains. It works okay except the oil adjustment screw broke and fell out of the housing on the Husky. I do not think it is lubing the chain anymore (or enough) so I have to return the Husky or get it fixed. It looks like the aluminum housing cracked and fell away <sigh>.

That tree, once I got the weigh off ended up being over 44+ inches wide at the ground when it lifted itself out of the ground and settled back on its ball. The bad news is it got hit by lightening, the center got burned out and near the ground the tree is like glass in some of the lower trunk and immediately dulls the chain. Tree had buried itself two feet+ into the GA clay when it keeled over.

My contract called for 12-18 inches above ground, now because it is so much larger than expected and so tough to cut I have to remove the whole thing now since it is doubtful I can move it like I was expecting and having it pop back into the hole. All the roots are broken/cut down, just it probably weighes a two tons and my winch and 4x4 can't really move it much more to flip it up.

I think next time I am going to get the tools to do a core sample (since the tree looked perfectly healthy) and charge a lot more for hit trees.

Fla._Deadheader · « **Reply #42 on:** September 07, 2003, 06:03:30 am »

Any way you can split it into at least 2 pieces and drag it out??? Got any pics???
These guys are great at rigging and might give ya some different angles to look at.

rebocardo · « **Reply #43 on:** September 16, 2003, 06:24:35 pm »

Well, my boss's diesel 4x4 dually Ram was not able to move the stump at all and we stopped because I thought the 3/8 chain was going to snap. I am going to knock the dirt off the ball and try to grind it if I have to. I do have pictures the owner took.

Interesting thing was I was using a shovel to clean out the middle of the stump near the dirt so I would not wreck my blade and I found an old green bottle inside the trunk. Says 4/5 quart, Duraglas, and the cork was still inside the bottle. Cool.

rebocardo · « **Reply #44 on:** October 19, 2003, 08:47:30 pm »

Well, I measured the trunk at ground level and it came to 54 inches across, not counting the roots, instead of the 48 further along up the trunk. Here are a couple of pictures:

The tree was 180 degrees flat on the ground. I was ready for the tree to move upwards, backwards, forwards, etc. when I started to cut the trunk in 1/2. I never expected it that it had weighted so much it had buried itself 24 inches into the ground.

http://www.forestryforum.com/images/04_01_03/index.php
http://www.forestryforum.com/images/04_01_03/index.php

rebocardo · « **Reply #45 on:** November 14, 2003, 03:31:44 pm »

Here are some pictures after it lifted itself off the ground once I cut the trunk in 1/2.

One more picture:

The piece in the background on the ground was 31 inches diameter. Somewhere I have a picture of those pieces in my 1971 F-100. There is no replacement for displacement, that 390 was working hard.

News:

Author Topic: one man saw vs. two man saw and a few questions (Read 3441 times)

biziedizie