Horse Logging

[okie]

Thought this was kinda cool to watch.

[Chuck White]

I had to watch it twice!

I remember when I was like 7-10 years old, we used to watch the neighbor work his horse in the woods.
The elder (50 something) worked in the woods and fell and limbed the trees and he'd hitch the horse to the log and head her down the skidway.
The son (20 something) worked the landing and he'd unhitch the horse when she arrived and send her back up the skidway to the woods.
This process worked very well, and went until lunch break, then would start up again when they finished their break.
It was neat, no one had to be with the horse on the skidway, just get her started and she'd go the rest of the way by herself.

[okie]

Thats awesome Chuck.

I dont know why the vid is open twice on here, I just copied the embed code once  .
Maybe one of the powers that be can take one off

[dsgsr]

That was nice, brings back memories. When I was 8-10 & older I had to help my older brother (Perley) in the woods, moving brush out of his way as he limb the trees with his old Lombard chainsaw. We had a large white horse (don't even remember his name). Perley did all the hitchin and yarding of the logs, the small stuff he'd cut into 4' and I had to stack it. That was the last horse the family had, I'm glad I had some contact with my heritage. The farm went to hell after that, all the older boys moved away and got jobs or went into the military and I was too young & we were to poor to try to keep things going, oh the good old days   I use to think it sucked having to do all that hard work, Boy I'd love to start a farm again

David

[woodmills1]

man thats a nice pile using horses and peaveys

[zopi]

<SIGH>..That was nice.

Every time we go to Busch gardens I have to go up and look at the Clydesdales...I can just the big buggers snatching logs outta the woods...

[Woodhog]

It reminded me of how tired I used to get twitching out logs with horses.. You are always jumping around the logs that are trying to roll over your feet.

If the bottom is bad like around here they tear off their shoes a lot and cut up their pasterns,  in the winter they get chapped in the same area and crack open.

Also they are always in a race, you have to be really carefull when you are hooking them up to the log or you can lose a finger quite quickly if they take off when they hear the chain snap.

You get wind suckers, cribbers that chew your barn down.

If you have a mare and she is in heat you can get an unexpected shower quite often when teaming from behind on the ground.

Its not as ideal as that video shows...

However there is something nice about them going thru the woods with a few bells on a cold day with smoke coming off their backs and out of their nose.

I miss the smell of them...also you have someone to yell at when working or have a chat with during lunch if you are alone.

Also no stinking diesel fuel and grease all over you...

I bet a lot of fellows with 250,000 worth of iron wish they could make a living with a horse, some harness, single tree and an old piece of chain and steel toed boots.

[zopi]

Also no stinking diesel fuel and grease all over you...

That almost makes up for the hard parts....jeez but I hate getting doused in hydraulic oil...

[Mr Mom]

   woodhog...i am no expert on horse logging and if your horse jump and run when they here the chain then i think they are to high strung.
   A friend that use to log with horses had a team that looked like they were always sleeping.
Watched him at some horse pulling contest and his team was the best.
Didnt need three guys to hook up like most did when they were hooking to the sled.

Thanks Alot MrMom

[rbhunter]

Some of the pullers in the older days would use hot shots on the horses when training. I don't know if they still do or not. It was not all of them but some of them as it was against the rules.

You are always careful when hooking up a team no matter how well broke they are. You never know what can happen that might spoke them and cause them to jump. My Grandfather broke many horses and had many well broke teams but he always stressed having a way out in case something would happen. Kind of like when falling a tree you have your exit planned. When hooking to a load you do not place your fingers where they could get caught when hooking to the load. You also make sure the lines are not trailing behind you where they could whip around you and drag you if the team spooked. I only seen one run away and that was because he was breaking a green horse with a half broke horse because someone offered him a good price for his other team and being careful made even more sense after that. Two tons of horse spooked is something you will  remember.

[Norm]

I have a belgian mare that is tamer than my dog but she has no idea of her size. She'll spook over something as small as a mouse running beneath her feet. When that happens you better make sure not to be in the line of escape.

[Corley5]

I'd never trade any of my iron be it a farm tractor or my Iron Mule for a team of horses.  Never ever 

[Gary_C]

I'd never trade any of my iron be it a farm tractor or my Iron Mule for a team of horses.  Never ever 

And I ain't trading my backhoe for a shovel either. 

[BrandonTN]

For those interested in horse logging:
There's a chapter on a horse logger in Virginia (?)-- or somewhere in the Appalachias-- in a book by Chris Bolgiano called "Living in the Appalachian Forest: True Tales of Sustainable Forestry." It's an inspiring story about this guy named Jason "something"...can't remember his last name.  Can't remember much about him, apparently, but I do remember it was awesome reading about his dedication to horse logging.

[SAW MILLER]

Jason Rutlidge I think

[rbhunter]

Here is the link to Jason Rutledge's organization.

http://healingharvestforestfoundation.org

Here is a link to a forum started by Jason for horse logging. It is fairly new, less than six months I believe and does not have much on it yet. It does have some information from Jason about horse logging. http://www.restorativeforestry.com/index.php

[zopi]

For those interested...Some neat horse logging stuff...

http://www.ruralheritage.com/

Maybe Logrite will make a collar tongue for their fetching arch...<G>

[zopi]

was reading a bit about ox training and logging...interesting stuff...

[Bret4207]

I have horses and machinery. I wouldn't trade either. Both have their place, both have times they're useless. Used correctly you can do a lot of work for not much money with a horse.

[stumper]

You can make just as much money with a horse as with a skidder.  A horse cost less to buy and less to feed.  Plus, you can move it with your pick up.  Generally, we paid the land owner going rate for saw logs and nothing for pulp and firewood.  Always had more work then we needed.

The down side is the volume of wood you can move.  5 cord a day verses 20 cord.  Also you need to tend horases 7 days a week were with a skidder you can park it and come back a week later and it does not mind.

Those horses looked pretty big, and the loads pretty light.  We twitched with a single horse.  A shorter, lighter horse costs less to feed and is easier to see over, instead of around. 

All that said there is a lot more money in engineering.  Plus if I want to look at a horses a$$ all day I can just put a mirror above my computer screen.

[moonhill]

Horses also heal themselves, just give them a bit of time.  Something a skidder will never do.  Just thought I would chuck that in.

Tim

[beenthere]

When are we going to see this upcoming switch to horses? 

[cheyenne]

I will never forget watching the horse loggers in the adirondacks back in the forties.It was a sight to behold the way they logged back then. They would just hook them up and the horses would go to the river all on thier own and come back......Cheyenne

[dnalley]

Watching this brought back memories of working a mule when I was a kid.  One of the main things I remember Dad teaching me was you never put the plow lines around your waist or neck!, and he'd better not catch you doing it!  Seemed like those mules were just trying to get their chance to kill you anyways.  No need to help them.  Guess it depends how much you know and trust your animals, but still they're just that, dumb? animals.

[moonhill]

You can't fault the animals.  It is the operator at fault.  He/she need to know what is happening, he/she need to be on top of things.  Asleep at the wheel/lines.  Do you fault a truck when the driver causes a collision?  No. Humans are only human and horses are only horses.  If we decide to work with them we are the ones responsible for all actions.  With horses there are just more hazards to watch for. 

Tim

[chevytaHOE5674]

A lot comes from the horse/mules training. My girlfriends horses will skid logs without trying to kill you. They take it nice and slow, and they don't start pulling until you say go. They don't try to run away from you so it is actually enjoyable and not a death trap. 

Many people train them to go when the tongs are hooked, Not sure why. 

[Tom]

I watched a horse pull in Minnihaha on a visit to my little brother's house.  As soon as the hook was dropped, those horses took off.  Sometimes they didn't have the sled attached when they did it and had to come back.  I was wondering if that was how they were trained or  if they had just learned to play the game.
July 4th Dover, Minn.

Horses play games too.  We used to play "badman and posse" when I was younger.  All of us on horseback and one was the badman.  He would take off through the orange grove and everyone else would try to catch him and throw green oranges at him.  My pony knew the drill and would, sometimes, hide behind or under an orange tree without my telling him to do it.  One time he ducked under an orange tree and my glasses got knocked off.  I was trying to figure out where they were and the herd of Posse came barrelling through. As soon as they passed, he jumped out from under the tree and went the other way.  I like to have never found that tree again, but did.  I found my glasses too.

[chevytaHOE5674]

I watched a horse pull in Minnihaha on a visit to my little brother's house.  As soon as the hook was dropped, those horses took off.  Sometimes they didn't have the sled attached when they did it and had to come back.  I was wondering if that was how they were trained or  if they had just learned to play the game.

Thats how the horse pulls are here, when the hook gets close to the sled they are gone. But there is one team that shows up where the horses wait for the drivers commands before they go. Thats how my girlfriends horses are and it makes working them a real delight. 

[thecfarm]

I go to the pulls too.Too bad the teamsters raise so much heii with the horses to make them do that.There are a few that really enjoy the pulling and are just excited to do what they are trained for. Kinda makes you wonder what goes on behind some of the barns. But there are a lot of different noises and smells at the pulls.Horse can be real funny when there is something different to them.It's a lot different with 2-300 people than you and a horse and the woods.Most of the teams,in this area,that pull in the ring,would be lost in the woods,unless they could go in a straight line all the time. It's a hobby to alot of teamsters around here.

[zackman1801]

my teacher logs with horses. he likes them alot, but every now and again they will act up. he tells us stories of the horses taking off and having to chase them down through the woods untill they either get tired and stop or get hung up and cant move. They are neat animals though. but you really have to make sure that they are comfortable with each other at all times or else you will have big problems in the woods.

[moonhill]

Chevytaho, your girl is doing it the correct way.  The team or single horse should never do any thing without being spoken to.  Horses learn quickly, one time is all it takes sometimes and they have a bad habit, or what I would perceive as a bad habit, others may say that it's cute or just shrug it off and continue.  Bad habits are easy to learn and harder to stop.  They shouldn't even move one foot an inch before the the other half is ready, the other half is the teamster. 

I have never seen in the movies, fiction land, the driver of a team of horses ask correctly for them to move.  It seems 99.9% of the time they are slapped with the lines.  That is sending the wrong signal.  The horse sees that as any time the lines are tosses around its time to go, so off they go, BAD.  Horses are tuned into sounds and the first step is to verbally cue them the lines are a secondary system of communication.  Slapping the lines is not the correct cue, light pressure is the way.  The pulling horses are cued into the clink of the chain or the absence of the chain moving, you choose.  What is really sending the team off?  It should be the driver.

Tim 

[WAP Man]

I had a big draft called Jim i logged with and did sleigh rides with when time permitted for over 20 years . I got Jim when he was 16 . At first he was the patience one  and I learned a lot from him . No big mishaps to speak off . For the next 20 years I saw more of him than my kids . Every morning and nite for 20 years . Then one morning in April 2 years ago I had to put him down . Tore my *DanG heart out , who said grown men don't cry .
Any way ,Jim rests on the property and I'm thinking in a few years ( when I retire ) i may get another .

 

[Rick Alger]

I log full time with horses. Production is low but so are expenses. Most of my work is on sites that the machine guys can't or won't touch because of wetlands, soil types or esthetics.
I work alone,so it makes for a long day, but the pace is calm and you can feel good about what you're doing.  You only take what is ready to go, and when you leave, the forest is still intact.

[thecfarm]

That is a job I would like to see. There is a guy at work that says horses make more of a mess than skidders because there is no way to smash the brush down. A skidder can run over the brush.    I tried to tell him I use a tractor in the woods and there is no brush sticking up in the air.I guess he never heard of cutting the brush up too until I tried to tell him. Some people are just too much in a hurry to do a good job. The old I can cut 20 cords a day story.Maybe so,but not on my land you won't.That is with a chainsaw and a skidder.

[maple flats]

My brother had a team several years ago and I used to log it with him and the horses during the winter. We would make a small trail and then drop a tree and buck the first log, hitch the horse and drive him out. After the one time I would drop trees and buck logs. When the horse came to the log I would get him lined up, back him to the log and hook the chain up. On command the horse took the log out to the landing where my brother was who unhooked the horse and send him back in. We would do this for up to about 2 1/2 hours and then break for lunch and feed the horses hay and a little oats. We most often logged with 1 but the other was there for bigger logs. When the horse was on his first trip out my brother often rode horseback, over the harness because the horse walked faster than my brother could safely thru the snow. The heavier the log the faster the horse would pull. The second horse did not log well alone, it needed to be a follower, but when teamed they would both pull well. About 1999 or 2000 my brother got a job that kept him away too long to tend the horses so he sold them. Now he uses an ASV, 80 HP version with a hydraulic shear which will cut anything up to 16", over that is still chainsaw work.

[woodrat]

I got to do this on a small sawmilling job in Northern CA once. The guy had hired a horse logger to get all his logs together, so I went to the job a few days early and helped. It was so much nicer than setting choker behind a diesel machine. The horses were calm and smart and had been logging together most of their lives. Like someone else said here, they didn't even need to be guided up and down the trail, but we walked alongside with peavies in case something got hung up. I had such a great time that I started setting up my next few jobs to get the logs out with horses, but then the guy retired his horses and bought a backhoe.

I spent a few years looking at teams and gear and thinking about getting into it myself, but then I moved back to SW Washington where all the logging is huge, corporate scale with huge machinery and I doubt I could find enough people who would pay to have their logs brought out with horses.

but it was fun and I think about it still...

[thompsontimber]

A local environmental group known as the Concerned Citizens of Rutherford County used to hold an annual "horse logging day" and invite foresters and landowners in the area to come witness horse logging and meet folks willing to log with horses as well as "teach" all the forestry professionals about how to conduct sustainable hardwood management and particularly uneven-age stand management.  There silvicultural methods were lacking in substance as you might imagine from such a group, and they basically attempted to teach people how to grow yellow-poplar and red maple in small scattered canopy openings, but the horse logging was neat to watch.  As for the environmental impact, some of those slopes they would work sure looked more like an erosion issue after those hooves dug there way up a few times as compared to a cable pulling the timber up the hill. 

[chevytaHOE5674]

Many claim that horse logging causes more soil compaction and erosion than a winch skidder. If you can get the horses to walk different trails all the time its better. But a team of horses constantly using the same trail can do lots of soil damage.

Edit: My preference is winter harvest with a small skidder, no soil damage or erosion issues.

But horses sure are fun to toy with, and pull out the occasional firewood.

[woodrat]

I've seen hillsides in southern Oregon that were yarder logged, probably decades ago, since I've been driving by them and looking at them for over 15 years, and you can still see the yarder trail scars from miles away. No team of horses could ever match that. And on my own land that was dozer logged in 1985, you can still see every single skid trail in the woods, clear as day. Even with my limited experience with horses, I have a hard time believing that a team of horses is going to leave behind a trail that will still be obvious 25 years later. Besides horses, I've personally used a small dozer, a Unimog and a small 4x4 tractor with a Farmi winch to skid logs. The Unimog, the tractor and the horses were all pretty low impact, but the dozer left a mess.

I guess if you're just clearcutting anyway, and treating the land like a field that needs to be plowed, then I suppose it doesn't matter what you use to drag the logs out, every square foot of dirt is going to get disturbed anyway. But I can't stand looking at those huge muddy clearcuts, and I can't stand looking at my creek after it rains hard either. I'd rather everyone used horses or small rubber tired skidders and cut selectively or only in small clearcuts, and there would be a lot more jobs in the woods, too.

[chevytaHOE5674]

Repeated horses dragging logs on a single trail can create ruts as well. The butts of the logs dig in because most just use tongs without a sled  of some kind. Using an arch or sled will virtually eliminate this issue... With any harvesting system proper skid trail layout is key.

Also horses hooves have lots of weight on them so they compact the soil pretty good. When horses "bite" in they can tear up lots of ground. My girlfriends team of horses will throw dirt 10+ feet when hooked to a large log and dig holes in the ground. Where a small tractor can skid it without spinning a tire or disturbing much at all. 

IMO/ IME horse logging is pretty low impact, but a good crew with a small skidder can be just as low impact. The nice thing about horses is they are easy to maneuver and work with in small tracts, and tracts with lots of residual left. But with proper road and trail layout just about any equiptment can be "low impact".

I have seen ruts and trenches left from past horse logging. So it can be done.

[thompsontimber]

But I can't stand looking at those huge muddy clearcuts, and I can't stand looking at my creek after it rains hard either. I'd rather everyone used horses or small rubber tired skidders and cut selectively or only in small clearcuts, and there would be a lot more jobs in the woods, too.

Logging impact isn't simply a matter of machine size or harvest size.  The idea that "clearcutting is bad" and selective harvesting with small machines and horses is the answer for an environmentally friendly logging solution is based much more on propaganda and the logic of the uniformed than it is in reality.  Reality is that clearcutting is often an appropriate silvicultural prescription.  When even-aged stands reach maturity and a regeneration harvest is appropriate, clearcutting is certainly not "bad."  Perhaps some will find it aesthetically unappealing, but forest management is long term, and not based solely on whether or not someone likes to see a bare spot of ground for a short time following a harvest.  Timing, type of harvest, terrain--all come into play when conducting a harvest and making sound environmental decisions.  Take a small, light weight 548 size class skidder with 23 tires on it in wet conditions and start dragging up a primary skid trail all day long and watch the ruts form.  Then run a heavy 848 machine with 35.5 tires on it on that same job and watch it set right on top of the ground with no rutting, hardly leaving a footprint behind.  Sure, conventional logging with rubber tired machines can have a devastating environmental impact, as can yarders, track machines, or animals.  The key is skid trail layout, harvest techniques, timing of the harvest, and matching appropriate equipment to the task at hand.  Simply saying everyone should use small machines and select cut is off base. 

[Gary_C]

 
 The key is skid trail layout, harvest techniques, timing of the harvest, and matching appropriate equipment to the task at hand.  Simply saying everyone should use small machines and select cut is off base. 

Well said. The other thing I would add is if you have to say bad things about someone else to promote your way, you are not doing everything the right way. 

[chevytaHOE5674]

Simply saying everyone should use small machines and select cut is off base. 

Exactly, the key is to select the right silvicultural prescription (usually to mimic natural disturbances, [be it total clearcut, small patch clearcuts, selection cut, etc...]) for the stand in question. Arriving at a management plan for that stand and from there selecting the proper equiptment and cutting system. There is a time and place for every piece of equiptment and knowing when and where to use each is crucial.

[woodrat]

Fair enough. But in my neck of the woods, apparently every single forestry unit calls for exactly the same treatment: to be clearcut up to 240 acres, even if the adjoining unit has only regrown to 10 feet tall or so. And if there weren't regulations about that, the clearcuts would be even bigger. And the creeks around here all tell the same sad story. I don't think clearcutting is always a bad thing, or always has to be done badly. I just look around me and see that there is no such thing as careful forestry around here, or applying different treatments based on the landscape. I can't remember the last time I saw a logging operation that wasn't a complete and total clearcut, regardless of slope, stand makeup or anything else. Every now and then there will be a handful of scraggly survivors left behind, spaced hundreds of feet apart, and they frequently blow down in the first good windstorm. And the "even aged stands should be clearcut" thing is sort of a self fulfilling prophecy. Once you turn everything into even aged stands, then every thing "needs" to be clearcut, and once everything is done with  giant scale machinery, with giant sized mortgages on it, then more and bigger isn't just better, it becomes necessary to keep  the bankers happy. And  now that the prices for timber are in the toilet, everyone is crying out for the state and the feds to release more timber for sale. How is that going to help in the long term? to flood a depressed market with more product?

I'm not saying that nothing should ever be clearcut, or that horses float above the ground and never disturb it, but I'll stick by my assertion that smaller scale forestry and more local decision making would result in healthier, more intact forests, more jobs in the woods, better prices for wood, less drastic flooding events and cleaner water for fish. And horses, smaller machines, smaller clearcuts and more uneven aged stands I think would all be part of that.

But, that is just my humble opinion, and if you guys want to call me a wacko radical eco-nut, you wouldn't be the first...

[cheyenne]

IMHO and I'm no Forestor or logging genius. But I think the only reason for clear cutting and the way things have been done since the begining is economics. It is easier,faster & more profitable to clear cut 240 acres than it is to take the same amount of timber from a 1000 acres......Ponder....If there was no clear cutting & all cutting was done with a healthy forest left after logging there would be more work & timber prices would be higher. But the big corps will never go there. It's about the bottom line & stockholders dividends.....Cheyenne

[chevytaHOE5674]

Clearcutting mimics the natural disturbances in many pine dominated forests. That disturbance would be large scale stand replacing fires (that we have now suppressed for many many years). So by clear cutting these pine forests roughly the same effect takes place as a large scale fire.

Also clear cuts are economical.

[woodrat]

I don't live in pine country so I don't know about pine. I live on the wet side of the cascades, with over 100 inches of rain a year, and where there have rarely been large fire events. I know that Douglas fir likes the sun, and that that is often given as the reason for clearcutting, but the scale of it has gotten way out of whack.

Economics is the main reason, and short term economics at that. And I don't think that short term economics should be the main motivator when dealing with tree species that can live for over 1000 years.

And the economics of salmon fishing has been all but extinguished, in large part by bad land management practices. The creek here was over 20 feet deep at the mouth 50 years ago, and now it is about 20 inches at low tide. I think that better and more careful forestry could have prevented that.

But hey, we were talking about horses originally, so I'll shut up now and let people get back to that.

Anyone ever see the Small Farmer's Journal out of Sisters, OR? It's a great magazine, centered around using horses for all kinds of work.

[thompsontimber]

Point taken woodrat, and certainly not intending to imply that you are a radical eco-nut.  My point is simply that you can't paint the entire timber industry or the forestry prescriptions used across the nation with the same broad brush.  Unfortunately, when such debates break out people tend to gravitate to solutions that regulate what can and can't be done based on acreage or something of that sort rather than regulations that require sound forest management by forestry professionals.  Too often legitimate management activities are deemed "wrong, destructive, and greedy" by folks that just quite honestly don't know any better.  I understand that you preface your comments with the basis of "where you live," and that is probably the key to your point of view.  Certainly stand dynamics in your area differ greatly from my area. You comment on what you see, and I certainly don't know much about how things are being done in the Geat Northwest.  I agree that nationwide, big timber companies and the bottom line too often trump what is right, but I think we are also seeing that trend decrease and foresty practices are improving all the time.  At least that's what I see in my area. Big timber hardly even owns any land around here anymore, and of course federal land is a minor component of the timber industry here as compared to all that BLM land out west.  The biggest culprit in bad management decisions here seems to be the propensity for landowners to avoid seeking professional advice, even though its often free and just a phone call away.

Nope, haven't seen that Small Farmer's Journal--dunno if we have any such local publications centered on horse logging, but the horse logging definetely has a niche here locally.

[woodrat]

check it out:

http://www.smallfarmersjournal.com/

[thompsontimber]

thanks for the link!

[rbhunter]

How does a team throw dirt ten feet away when pulling a heavy load. When pulling a heavy load the horses are straining forward and picking up one foot and placing it forward. The feet are not moving fast when pulling a heavy load. The only times I can remember them throwing dirt was when running on softer ground.

[chevytaHOE5674]

How does a team throw dirt ten feet away when pulling a heavy load. When pulling a heavy load the horses are straining forward and picking up one foot and placing it forward. The feet are not moving fast when pulling a heavy load. The only times I can remember them throwing dirt was when running on softer ground.

The initial struggle of getting the load moving is hard for them and lots of earth gets moved. They almost have to run in place to get the load started.

Not the dirt getting thrown. Put those horses on some muddy terrain or hills.....



Just a note at the fair we have to shovel dirt out of the sled, and when pulling logs if your behind them you often get dirt in your face.

[woodrat]

When I was working with the horses, we weren't pulling very heavy logs, the biggest was probably 20' by maybe 20", and we had two big Belgians, so I never saw them kick up dirt like that. Plus if you did have a log you thought was heavy, you could set the choker with a little "roll" in it and that would help get the log moving for them without as much initial friction to overcome.

They sure are cool, those big horses...

[chevytaHOE5674]

Around here if your using horses you have to be able to pull 30"+ hardwoods in lengths up to 20 foot.

[woodrat]

I'm sure these boys could have pulled those sizes of logs, we just didn't have anything that big. We were cutting framing lumber for a house, and so generally the fatter stuff was shorter, like 12'. They didn't look like they were working super hard to get the loads moving. And although I've cut much bigger,  I don't really like to get much over 30" DIB with the woodmizer anyway. 14-28" is just about perfect. In this part of the world, it is getting pretty hard to find many mills willing to take a 30" log. The big corporate mills have mostly switched over to automated headrigs that don't want anything much bigger than 14-16". That's how we get such junky framing lumber at the store now. Just try and find a 2x12 that doesn't have two bark edges and the pith in the same board, and only two or three growth rings per inch.

[chevytaHOE5674]

Most of what we grow round here is good quality hard (sugar) maple, and some decent quality red oak. Large logs are perfect for the veneer peeler or to be sold to super prime cabinet and veneer markets across the country. Don't cut hardly any dimensional framing lumber up in this region.

A team of 2 draft horses usually struggle getting the big logs going especially if they are in any kind of topography.

[thedeeredude]

From the looks of it a lightweight horse exerts more ground pressure than an abrams tank.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_pressure

I've watched plenty of horse logging videos and they all seem to say the same thing, horses make minimal disturbance in the woods.  Many also seem to think that horses or mules are the only "machine" capable of making minimal disturbance in the woods.  It looks like a harvester and forwarder are awfully low impact in the woods.  In doing various google searches a feller buncher is around 10psi ground pressure.  A forwarder is 7 to 15 psi ground pressure.  I've never run any of these machines but I would think they can do just fine in selective cuts and thinning operations. 

[thompsontimber]

You are right on target with the ground psi...my point exactly with the example of the small tired small skidder running along with a large skidder with much larger tires.  The ground pressure distributed through the larger tire surface area makes less impact, even with more weight.  A horse weighs much less than a rubber tired machine, but the ground psi is distributed through the small hoof.  Horses can certainly leave an impact that rivals conventional logging techniques.  Again, its all relative to the circumstances and the job at hand.  Horses have there place, but I have never been convinced that the environmental argument is one that's in there favor.  Of course, horses used in logging now are gonna be used typically on small scale harvests, so I guess horse loggers will draw the praise for low impact because you don't see them leaving behind that big muddy hill that woodrat was complaining about.  But harvests always look worst "out amongst the stumps," and if many folks got out and looked rather than simply driving by, they might not be so impressed with the horse logging results on the ground.

[Ron Scott]

Well said! Horse logging has its place, but is not always the low impact logging as people think.

[woodrat]

The context in which I used horses was pulling out enough timber to frame a small house off of the land the house was built on. We weren't supplying a huge corporate mill, and after about three days, we had out what we needed, from a couple of different spots on the guy's land, and it's unlikely that he's been back in there much since. I doubt you could even find where we were now, except for a few stumps scattered around. I think in that context, and pulling small and medium diameter stuff, horses can be a very good fit, and they are quieter and smell nicer than a big machine, too. It was nice not having to wear hearing protection all day long.

Pretty much all the logging I've ever done was about that. Small scale, hand logging to fill a specific need on the landowner's own place, and then I would mill the trees afterwards. The tool I mostly used to do the skidding was a Unimog, and that was also very low impact and you'd be hard pressed to find where I ever went with that, either. I always liked those kinds of jobs. It was really satisfying to leave a job like that with a pile of freshly sawn boards stacked up high, and hardly a hole in the canopy of the landowner's forest. Unfortunately, where I live now, there is not much demand for that kind of work. It's pretty much all clearcuts, and the sawing jobs I get now are usually a pile of logs that were too shabby to send to the mill, after the landowner finished clearcutting.

[thedeeredude]

Maybe sometimes people forget that until the latter 1800's, all those old growth forests were obliterated by men with hand saws, axes, and oxen or horses/mules.  A machine can only do what it's operator tells it to.  

[thompsontimber]

Of course early logging methods involved large scale harvests with manual labor and animals, and also without much in the way of regulation and without much concern over environmental impact.  Of course, those methods have also become obsolete on a large scale today, and therefore that small scale harvesting with animals is suddenly revolutionary and "eco-friendly."  Goes back to that whole economics argument earlier in the thread.  If it was economical for the horse logger to do a 100 acre clearcut with his team, he would no longer be viewed as a great forestry steward.  He isn't logging big tracts though, so the perception is there for most of the public observers.

[hosslog]

Howdy Folks, I haven't been here in a while but I checked in and found this thread so I thought I'd give you the benefit of my 2cents .

The problem isn't the compaction itself. It is how the compaction affects the runoff from rain and melting snow.

When horses are walking they tend to put their back foot in the spot that their front foot just vacated. So you only have 2 areas of compaction 12 inches or so in diameter per horse. Water can still soak into the ground around the compacted spots.

Wheeled vehicles on the other hand leave a continuious strip that won't let the runoff percolate down into the soil. The wider the tire the more water it is going to catch and allow to run off. This is when you start to see the most  damage.

Like I said , just my 2 cents.

[cheyenne]

Now that makes a lot of sense.....Cheyenne

[thedeeredude]

Hi hosslog   Are you from firth maple or fitzmorris logging?  What do you experience with ruts left from the rear end of the log dragging?  Does that impact the forest floor a lot?  Nice to see another horse logger on the forum.  Another guy here, Rick Alger does horse logging for a living.  I never knew that about where horses step.  I was just at the PA farm show and.saw a lot of the drafts, they are awesome critters.  I especially like the gray percherons.

[hosslog]

Howdy Deerdude, Yup, I work for Firth Maple. Have you ever been to one of his looging demo's? The only time that there is much concrrn about the drag channels is on hill sides. Then we go back make sure the water bars are in good shape.
I tend to perfer working Percherons myself

[thedeeredude]

   What is a water bar?  No I've never seen one of his demos.  I've never heard of firth maple until I did a search.  I thought fitzmorris was around spartansburg also, I'm not familiar with the area though. 

[thompsontimber]

Water bars are constructed to control runoff and prevent erosion by diverting surface water that would otherwise gain velocity as it flows down the length of the road, carrying sediment with it. Built properly, a series of waterbars will greatly reduce the volume of water flowing down the exposed road surface, and thus reduce rutting and washouts. The use of waterbars or other water diversions are a recommended practice with any type of harvesting activities where exposed roads or skid trails are located on slopes where water can flow quickly and cause erosion.  Conventional loggers build them with skidders or dozers at angles along the road way.  Not sure how the horse loggers do it, I'd be interested to hear hosslog. 

[thedeeredude]

Do you have any pictures of a water bar setup?

[Radar67]

This link shows how waterbars are built. Look in the road construction Chapter. I have a copy of this file in full at home. I will make it available this evening.

http://www.na.fs.fed.us/SPFO/pubs/stewardship/accessroads/accessroads.htm

[beenthere]

Another site is about the BMP (best management practices) for woodlands.

http://ua.dnr.wi.gov/org/land/forestry/usesof/bmp/bmpforestroads.htm

Includes water bars and other constructions to control run-off.

[thompsontimber]

Just checked back and got your question bout the pics deeredude.  Looks like the others have provided excellent links detailing water bars and their construction.

[Radar67]

The full version of the book in my link is in PDF format (1.25 megs). If anyone wants it, send me a PM with your email address. I'll send it out since it was a free download when I got it.

[hosslog]

We do it the old fashioned way........ With shovels  

[thompsontimber]

I hear ya hosslog, you definetely earning your keep!  So on what scale are you guys typically conducting harvests?

[hosslog]

There are 3 or 4 teams working all the time, sometimes as many as 13 or 14.
After the initial TSI they try for a harvest about every 5 years, varies some depending on the parcel. I'm not sure how many acres they are managing now.

[thecfarm]

I sure would like to see  pictures of horses in the woods,especially 13 or 14 teams.I get excited when I see just one. I've always enjoyed them. We had a Haflinger that I was going to train and just play around in the woods.Due to my wife health problems the horse had to go.

[Norm]

Nothing to do with logging but we have a belgian mare that is an only child. For Christmas Patty got me a jenny that is less than 6 months old and not much bigger than a large dog. We've been keeping her penned worried about if the mare would be harsh with her. Yesterday I let the jenny out with Becky to see what she'd do. The jenny walks past Becky down to the hay ring pretty much ignoring her. I thought for sure Becky would go down there to check her out but what did she do....she hid behind me. When Patty walked down to see what was up here's this 1 ton horse trying to hide behind me . Here's Becky with her head hid behind my back and would occasionally peek out and then hide it behind me again.

Sure glad a mouse didn't show up. 

[ErikC]

  Hey Norm-a lot of people I deal with who wanted a companion for an "only child" have gotten donkeys. They make great friends with the horse, never challenge the horse so there isn't much conflict, and they are very personable. They eat less hay than a Belgian mare as well. Enjoy her.

[Norm]

Eric you're sure right about that.



Sally has a great personality and will make a good addition to the farm family.

[SwampDonkey]

When my grandfather cut timber it was usually in the winter months on snow, so large logs move a lot easier. He used voice commands with his horses "Gee" and "Haw" for go left or right. "Woe" for stop, 'backup" and a little light pull on the whiffle tree to back up to the log. There was no whipping with the reins. His horses also knew to skid unattended to the yard, but he often worked alone and followed them to the yard until my uncle was old enough to yard and grandfather would fell and limb. He often stayed in horse hovels with the horses working for timber companies and spent many winters in lumber camps and worked on spring drives. My grandmother often helped in the woods before my uncles were old enough. She even helped peel pulp. She ran the sporting camps cooking and cleaning and my uncle helped as cookee when he was old enough. My grandfather was also a guide outfitter (3rd generation) so his summers and falls were spent guiding fishermen and big game hunters. Before outboard motors came along he poled 22 foot canvas back canoes on the river to fish and hunt. He could pole for 20 miles up the Tobique River to a favorite fishing hole or hunting ground, often stayed in lean too's over night covered with a Hudson Bay sleeping robe. He retired in the early 70's and continued fishing and hunting and guiding into his 80's. In his hay day, hunting didn't involve riding pickups through the woods and fishing wasn't pleasure boating. Although it was his dream job and was very content through life. He had several sporting camps and owned salmon pools on the river until the NB Power Corporation expropriated and he lost his piece of river and had to relocate his river camps.

He was a "Tobiquer".

[ErikC]

  Well Norm, I'd say they're getting along just fine. You're just a couple away from a herd--watch out!!