Loggers, what are the traits you value in foresters?

[BrandonTN]

A conversation in another thread made me interested in this topic.  (Let me know if there's already a thread about this to refer to.)

Loggers on the board, what are the traits/practices you value in the foresters you work/have worked with in your time? And/or what are the inconveniences, or the things that aren't productive in some of the foresters' methods of operation?

 

[Gary_C]

Honesty and reliability. And poor eyesight would be a plus also. 

[zackman1801]

in some of the jobs ive worked the foresteres marked trees poorly. we were working over a stand of red pine (EHH!) and the trees instead of being marked by taking out entire rows we were randomly taking out 1 here 1 there it made putting in skid trails a beast, and almost every tree got hung up. Aside from that i admire the work they do, ive been doing some training lately in that field and what they do is complicated using all the fancy tools and formulas to figure things out.

[Texas Ranger]

fancy tools and formulas

Yes, we have them, but more than anything else is experience.  Your red pine harvest sounds like a sanitation cut, which probably could have waited for a thinning, but I wont second guess a forester up there.  And, of course, there are foresters, and then there are foresters.

[SwampDonkey]

Honesty and reliability. And poor eyesight would be a plus also. 

Just stare at end grain for awhile from the harvester cab and things will get fuzzy before long. 

[Gary_C]

I don't have an easy answer to the question as I don't have a list of traits that I look for as much as I'd just like to know the forester and how he marks and runs his or her jobs.

An example of knowing the forester is one state sale that I bid on some years ago. I knew the forester and it was a 750 cord clearcut of jack pine that was diseased. It was a lump sum bid and I was in the bidding up to my limit and quit and it eventually sold for twice what I thought it was worth. I knew the logger that bought it and asked him after the sale why he went so high. His response was if I had ever cut one of that foresters jobs before I would know he was lazy and his estimates were always way low, in this case about half what was there. It does pay to know the forester when you bid his jobs. 

Most of my jobs are with two DNR foresters and both have tons of experience and I get along very well with both of them. The closest thing I have seen on any of their jobs to dictating skid trails was on one large sale where one forester had marked areas with advanced reproduction of red oak that he did not want anything skidded thru. But since I use a forwarder, he told me it was alright to carefuly go thru the area where I had to but otherwise just ignore those restrictions.  So to put that as a trait, a forester should be flexible when he can.

But on the other hand there are some traits that I prefer to not see. I always believe that I can get along with anyone, but I have been wrong before. Usually it is personality traits that are the root of most conflicts and not professional traits. Enough said about that.

[Gary_C]

Oh and one other trait I hate to see in foresters is constantly bad mouthing all loggers because of a few bad ones. And assuming all thieves with chainsaws are professional loggers.

 

[Texas Ranger]

Kinda sensitive there, huh?  Insurance salesman are not timber thieves.

[Gary_C]

Kinda sensitive there, huh?  Insurance salesman are not timber thieves.

 

[nas]

Kinda sensitive there, huh?  Insurance salesman are not timber thieves.

 

  A very interesting thread here.  Although I am not a logger or a forester I find this kind of thing goes on in other businesses too.  I am a carpenter by trade who does a lot of renovations and restorations.  There are a lot of fly-by-nighters in my trade who give us all a bad rep.  I would equate them with the timber theives.  I don't consider them to be carpenters and I get kind of sensitive when people group me with them.

Nick

P.S. TR I think I would trust a timber thief more than an Insurance agent(hows that for painting a profession with one brush )

[Texas Ranger]

The point being that you need more than the saw, you  need equipment to move, load and haul the stolen goods.  Then you need a mill that will take it, but normally they haul to a middle man who could care less where the logs came from, and he ships under his contract.  The fence of the logging business.

It takes a logger to steal timber, not an insurance salesman, who do not have  the required equipment. 

[Gary_C]

That must be one of those Texas things. We do not have any of that around here.

[SwampDonkey]

We have them up here Gary, it is very common. 95% of woodlot owners won't hire a forester or draw up a contract, they just want their wood cut: lump sum sometimes, scale others. Under lump sum, the land suffers and the vulnerable get taken on price in most bad cases, and under scale the worst case involves both out right theft and the land also suffers. Vacant lots, especially with owners living way off, are targets for theft. All the perpetrator has to do is either know the community or look up the owner's residence at the records office.

Dad's had wood stolen, cousins have had wood stolen, one cousin is dealing with a situation right now. All of the perpetrators are loggers and have cut wood for years. I can't comment on whether they took any training, I suspect most just learned the business working for family members. That's not meant to put anyone down, it's just my experience and only stands to reason you'd learn from a dad or uncle if that was what you wanted to pursue. Someone who has worked at it for years himself.

[Ron Wenrich]

There are thieves all over.  We had a forester that we gave a payment to, and he never paid the landowner.  We ended up paying double for the sale just to satisfy the landowner and his lawyer.

I know another forester that will buy timber from a landowner, then turn around and sell the timber to a logger.  On some sales, he makes more than the landowner.  Is that thievery?  I also count my fingers after I shake hands with this guy.   

A forester tells us to cut some dead oak that wasn't marked.  No need to pay extra.  Landowner is convinced that we're thieves. 

A forester culls out marketable timber because he doesn't like the species.  They don't fall into the specs of being called a cull.  This helps sweeten up his tally, and the logger gets the timber for free.  Is that thievery? 

[Texas Ranger]

I will bite, Gary, tell me how you steal timber without the necessary equipment, contracts with the mills, or an inside to the mill.  I know you can do it with the paper work, but how physically does an individual move the logs with out the equipment?

[Jeff]

Now that I have at least a laptop keyboard I'll answer that.   Iv'e seen times a timber theft in this area occurred via sources outside of the logger. The logger was doing his job ethically and as contracted and the thefts occurred at the mill level.  Lots of mills bid on timber, create the contracts then hire the loggers to do the work. The loggers are paid for thier production and not part of the transaction. I've seen DanG good loggers get caught in the middle because of greedy and unethical mills.

Now, publicly, my problems with this thread is not  what is being said, but how its being delivered and the  fact its being made personal.  It was made personal to me a little while ago. I'm ok with that but you need to understand that this forum exists almost directly to the fact that I found injustice in an incident where a *DanG good honest logger was being accessed of being a crook. That was the origination for what became my Timber Buyers Network site from which the Forestry Forum came.

This Forum was based on that and its also been based on the way we discuss things and work with each other with civility.  We should try not to waver from that to get a point across.

[Sunfield Hardwood]

Thanks for the guidence and input Jeff , I for one get the message and appreiceate the forum Bill

[Jeff]

I will bite, Gary, tell me how you steal timber without the necessary equipment, contracts with the mills, or an inside to the mill.  I know you can do it with the paper work, but how physically does an individual move the logs with out the equipment?

Here is an incident where I was personally accused of what amounted to Timber theft.

When I was at the mill, for a number of years I scaled probably 90% of the wood that came into the yard.  Much of that was cord scaled on the trucks using a long measuring stick graduated accordingly. 

One day one of our long time loggers tore into the mill and barged into the office. John Bigford was there to accuse me of short scaling all of his loads.  He was ready to have a piece of me. The Boss talked to him and asked why he thought I would have any incentive to give anything but a fair scale. He had no answer for that. At the time, Bigford's contracted to another company to haul all of their logs as they did not have any trucks of their own.  At this time, I didn't know what was going on and didn't know what I was being accused of until down the road after John and Ray my Boss started investigating.

Turns out, the log truck driver, hired by the log trucking company was taking logs off of the loads after he left the woods and before he arrived to the mill. He would keep decent logs on the top so he was always taking the best.  Once he had lifted a sufficient amount he would haul his stash to Amish mills for cash.

It turns out that he was being investigated by his company because the Amish had called the number on the truck asking to buy more logs. The trucking company had no knowledge of ever selling logs to them.

So, me, the mill, the logger and the trucking company were all innocent. It was the thief the trucking company hired.  I found out all of this when John Bigford showed up to apologize to me for something, before that point, I had no knowledge of.

[DanG]

I started off wondering why this thread wasn't getting much attention.  Now I'm wondering how it turned into a debate about thievery.   I mainly just wanted to bump it to the top because I felt like it deserved more attention, and it was sliding down the page in a hurry.  I sure didn't mean to start a fight.

Personally, I thought Texas Ranger's original response was perfect, except he left out one word.  It should have read, "Honesty, reliability, and competence."

One of the reasons I wanted to stimulate this thread is that I have an appreciation for Brandon's contributions to this forum.  I read him as a bright young man who is striving to be good at what he has chosen to do with his life, and he has asked some very good questions that have brought about some good discussion for the benefit of all of us.  I guess, in a way, it has given him an insight into the business.  At least he can see what sort of bullschitt he'll have to contend with when he gets out of school.

[SwampDonkey]

Now that I have at least a laptop keyboard I'll answer that.   Iv'e seen times a timber theft in this area occurred via sources outside of the logger. The logger was doing his job ethically and as contracted and the thefts occurred at the mill level.  Lots of mills bid on timber, create the contracts then hire the loggers to do the work. The loggers are paid for thier production and not part of the transaction. I've seen DanG good loggers get caught in the middle because of greedy and unethical mills.

I've seen that situation here once. It is not common here and usually happens if the loggers are working on direct contracts with a mill out of province. Of course there is no way I could know every incident. But if you are going to here of it, it will be from an woodlot owner organization, such as our marketing boards. Word spreads quick.

[Texas Ranger]

A mill owner I know had this sign in his office:  "The mill industry is run by two emotions, Greed and Avarice".  He fought to keep his mill straight, but had a scaler that was shorting one load and putting the "logs" on his buddies ticket.  It took months to figure out the shortages at the gate.  Scaler and logging buddy were canned, but no charges as there was no physical evidence.

It is all ethics, ya got em, or ya don't.

[Gary_C]

I started off wondering why this thread wasn't getting much attention.  Now I'm wondering how it turned into a debate about thievery.  

I wondered that myself.   

Since starting these two threads Brandon has been absent from this discussion.  Probably because he is looking for a new major to get away from all these crooked foresters and loggers.

I also wondered why my name got attached to this question of how to steal timber. As I said previously, things are different here in Minnesota. Plus I don't know the answer to the question and don't care to. I'm too busy cutting the jobs I bought to try to steal something I don't own. 

If that makes me naieve and/or isolated, then good for me. 

[SwampDonkey]

I also wondered why my name got attached to this question of how to steal timber.

It wasn't used in the way that you are inferring. You were being addressed by name followed by a clarification or scenario in an argument spawned by a previous post.

[Corley5]

Probably the biggest form of timber theft up here is simply not paying for logs cut.  Train loads leave the property and if the landowner isn't there to keep track of what's going out.... and if the logger or buyer know they aren't home    It happens too often 

[BrandonTN]

I appreciate this board, and did not intend to create fighting.....or, atleast, if my thread did create some fighting, I had hoped it would not be too brutal and all would benefit once the dust settled. Kind of like what DanG, said.
I always tend to learn something every time I spend some time reading on it. There's lots of experience on the board I respect...loggers and foresters.

Since starting these two threads Brandon has been absent from this discussion.  Probably because he is looking for a new major to get away from all these crooked foresters and loggers.

 ......nah, there are crooks everywhere.

[Gary_C]

I appreciate this board, and did not intend to create fighting.....or, atleast, if my thread did create some fighting, I had hoped it would not be too brutal and all would benefit once the dust settled.

Aw, we ain't fighting. Some of us oldtimers just do this for entertainment, or to take potshots at guys from Texas.   

[Texas Ranger]

Yankee's are like hemroids, nah, wont go there. 

Texans return fire.

[Gary_C]

Texans return fire.

Yep. there sure is a strong wind that comes from Texas. 

[Brian Beauchamp]

I don't consider them to be carpenters and I get kind of sensitive when people group me with them.

...just think how Jesus feels!

[thompsontimber]

Having experience on both sides of this issue, I have already posted in the forester's side of this question.  On the logging side, I believe most loggers want their forester to be knowledgable about logging...understand his logging costs and what he can and can't do...I can't recall all the times I have worked a logger that says to me something along the lines of "I can tell you have worked in the woods before because you didn't ask me to do the impossible."  They would give me examples of how a forester would require a tract to be harvested with poorly located deck areas with skid distances that weren't practical, etc etc.  More foresters need to understand what can and can't be done and when it is done, at what cost.  Therein lies the next issue, with a poor understanding of logging rates.  A procurement guy buys Tract A and Tract B with the same stumpage basis, then asks the logger to log them at the same logging rate, but Tract B costs twice as much to log as Tract A.  Next thing you know, a logger is forced to turn down the job and perhaps have no where else to go, or accept it at a rate he knows he cannot be profitable (you can imagine the horrors that might follow in that scenerio). Having worked the procurement end, I know that too many on that side view the logging force with disdain and look no farther than the bottom line.  They attempt to log cheap and cheaper, and hold loggers hostage with thin profit margins and indebtedness to the procurement company.  I had to answer to those types, and it really got to me as I come from a logging background.  The backbone of the industry is too often held under foot by the profiteers.  Loggers want most a forester that will give them a fair shake through fair rates and reasonable expectations.  Everything else then takes care of itself.