Question for you WM gurus...

[zopi]

Ok, So I love my LT-15..if it would do the dishes I'd be guilty of bigamy....but it is occurring to the wife (!) and I that it is not as productive as I need it to be...she has honey do's that involve large amounts of lumber...and my shed project has
made her drool...storage space is at a premium...plus she has this thing for closets (our house has none..it's that old!)
and multiple bathrooms and whatnot...

Anyway, sometime in the hopefully, not to distant future we will have the $$$ to upgrade, and so I am looking at buying a lightly used LT-40 (with trimmings) or LT-40HD...I see alot of nice mills go through here and the WM site for some pretty
decent prices..My question is, particularly for folks who have operated both mills, what is really the difference? aside from the log loader (must have, bad back) does the hydraulic mill really make life that much nicer?

What is the difference in maintenance? I pretty much trust WM to build a good product, but is the HD more prone to failures, being as it is more complicated, or am I worrying about too much little stuff?

I have read some about the accuset, considering that I am for the moment a heavy hobby sawyer, what are the pros and cons involved? (OK, I want the setworks, 'cause it's a cool widget, but I think my way through a log pretty well, for a big dumb animal, that is.. )

Lest you all think I am crazy, (ok..so you KNOW I'm crazy...fugettaboudit) I have discovered a pretty decent and untapped market in the area for simple no frills barn lumber, and decent not big box store lumber.. 18" wide pine slabs for one thing..and several requests for custom sawing, jobs big enough that I simply can't handle as is....

oh...keep your fingers crossed on this one...

[WH_Conley]

Go hydraulic. If the back is bad it will get worse turning logs by hand.

In 2900 hrs I have busted 1 hose and had the pump motor rebuilt twice, once after a flood, never got the saw head, just the hydraulic box.

[Dan_Shade]

Material handling almost always is the bottleneck of production, i'd focus on getting that streamlined before I upgraded.

In my opinion, if you are even remotely considering starting a side gig, go for they hydraulics, and maybe even a super.  Every time I hitch up to roll out, I wish I had a super...

However, if you're only sawing for yourself, then it may not pay to get the hydraulics, the cost difference is a lot of lumber.  

What HP engine does your LT15 have?  

With my LT40HD, i have busted one hose, and had a module go out in my simple setworks.  other than that, normal wear and tear type of stuff such as blade guides.  I think I busted the hose by getting it hung up on a high stump.

[JV]

My first mill was an all manual mill and it didn't take long to see there had to be a better

way.  I graduated to a LT-40 Hydraulic with Accuset and believe me it was well worth it.

Not only the hydraulic log loader but the turner and toe boards are well worth the cost.

They save time, backaches, and potential hernias.     If your eyesight is like mine, the

Accuset is great.  It gives additional speed and definitely consistent board thickness I

couldn't get with a scale.

[Chuck White]

Anyway, sometime in the hopefully, not to distant future we will have the $$$ to upgrade, and so I am looking at buying a lightly used LT-40 (with trimmings) or LT-40HD...I see alot of nice mills go through here and the WM site for some pretty decent prices. My question is, particularly for folks who have operated both mills, what is really the difference? aside from the log loader (must have, bad back) does the hydraulic mill really make life that much nicer?

I haven't operated an LT-15, but for about a year and a half, I operated my FIL's WM LT40G18 (it's a manual).  Last year, we sawed mobile and sawed about 20,000 board feet.  Well, this year we again sawed mobile with our own LT40HDG24 and sawed out 70,400 board feet.
We could hardly believe the difference.  The hydraulics eliminate about 95% of the "bull-work"!  Also, there is a big difference between the 18hp and the 24hp engines.

What is the difference in maintenance? I pretty much trust WM to build a good product, but is the HD more prone to failures, being as it is more complicated, or am I worrying about too much little stuff?

The hydraulics is a completely separate system.  It is very reliable and we never had a problem with the system.
If you get a mill with hydraulics, you'll wonder how you ever got along with out the system.
Keep your eyes and ears open, and you'll find one like we did.  It's price was a little over half of the price of a new one.

Good luck;

[Dave Shepard]

I'd look for a HD mill that is new enough to have the two plane clamp. It's my favorite feature of the hydraulic mill. Accuset is sweet, but I do pretty well on the manual mills without it. As was mentioned, material handling can make or break you. I can turn out nearly 300 feet an hour on the one manual mill due to having a log deck and edger all right where I want them. Not having things set up properly, and no log deck, on the Super mill means I'm not doing much more than that.

[backwoods sawyer]

I run a 2001 LT-40-LT70 half-breed. (The proto type for the LT-70) The chassis is LT-40 and the head is LT-70. I have worked with the LT-40 super and the LT-40 manual prior to purchasing the mill I have now.

I like the hydraulics and accuset 2. The original accuset was designed to fail and it did many times on my mill, the accuset 2 is a much better set up that can be a real time saver as well as aiding in accuracy, as it is a very accurate system. It was a must have for me.

The hydraulic mills are a labor saver, but if you have support equipment, the manual mill is not a bad option. It sure is nice to stand at control panel of the mill, load the log, rotate it around one time to get a good look at all sides then rotate so the horns are up, level it up, and clamp it in place all from the control panel. The remote control panel saves many steps over the walk along models. Not a big issue if you are young and full of pith and vinegar, but if you are starting to feel your age then this can be an issue.

I did have to replace the complete hydraulic box (pumps contacts ect.) and all the hoses due to a fire that was not related to the mill. (Customer built a fire to close to my mill at the end of the day) I found that the hoses that wood mizer uses are not wire braided and was unable to get them repaired in this area. I put in all new wire braided hoses and found that the tube was a bit small to take the last one but with some time, I was able to work it into place. I have not used a drop of oil since, and feel the hydraulic system is a well-designed set up, other then the cheap hoses that they use.

The option that I would recommend is the auto clutch. Lifting the smaller motors is not too bad, but if you get into the larger motors you will ware your arm out, compared to a flick of the thumb.

[bandmiller2]

Zopi,go for the gold,get the hyd.and the puter it only hurts once when you pay for it ,and it will avoid the should haves later.The computer is a spoiler but anything I can't fix myself makes me nervous.You could always invite a twidget from the base home for supper if you have computer problems.Frank C.

[Cedarman]

All of us have days where we are gung ho and others not so gung ho.  Having the hydraulic mill makes it easier to saw that last log of the day rather than putting it off until tomorrow.  Not only is the hydraulic easier on the body, it makes it easier to saw more hours of the day.  This last fact will more than pay for the hydraulics.  Now if you are super disciplined and can bull your way through then manual will be ok.

[Papa1stuff]

I have an 2008 LT40SH,great machine ,only wish I had gone with the LT50 as it has the better log turner!

[Dan_Shade]

do you keep a running tally of your production, zopi?

i've been keeping track since I bought my mill back in 2006.  I think my average bf/hour rate is around 200, the high is 330 or so, but i've found those jobs to be pretty rare.  I'm 100% portable, and that slows me down some, depending on the job setup and help.

[MartyParsons]

You guys make my job easy. I dont think I could add anything. Not many issues. Accuset 2 has been a great improvement.
Marty

[sawman]

  We started out with a manual lt 30, then upgraded to a lt40hd.
  With the hd we nearly doubled our output.
  We do not saw a whole lot, but the hydraulics do seem to make a significant
  difference.

[zopi]

Zopi,go for the gold,get the hyd.and the puter it only hurts once when you pay for it ,and it will avoid the should haves later.The computer is a spoiler but anything I can't fix myself makes me nervous.You could always invite a twidget from the base home for supper if you have computer problems.Frank C.

I AM a twidget...I just act like an A ganger...<GRIN>

[zopi]

That

do you keep a running tally of your production, zopi?

i've been keeping track since I bought my mill back in 2006.  I think my average bf/hour rate is around 200, the high is 330 or so, but i've found those jobs to be pretty rare.  I'm 100% portable, and that slows me down some, depending on the job setup and help.

That's my big thing..aside from not developing popeye arms cranking..portability and log handling are my pinch points..there are alot of opportunities to pick up freebie logs around here, and alot of folks who have timber they want cut but no way to get the logs to the mill..got a guy right now who wants me to log out and saw a five acre tract...told him if he could find someone to log it i'd cut it...I can lay a tree down ok, but I am in no way qualified or equipped to handle logging on any scale..

I don't keep a tally sheet for what I am doing now, I just scale the logs
with a framing square and cut as efficiently as I can...I have racked in 4-5
Mbf since I got the mill...it adds up quick.
I did some quick math the other night as to what I had put into my little workshop, and the lumber I have left to go into it..came up to between 1/3-1/2 the cost of my mill...at lumberyard prices, and without considering the fact that it's kind of hard to find 1x15x16' pine boards anywhere....

wifey watched the videos for the LT-40G28 and the LT40H...no brainer in her opinion...unfortunately I could hear the wheels turning in her head..she likes the two plane clamp and hydraulic toe boards...I can see
me offbearing alot of lumber in the future....oh well, I guess I'll just have to build myself a green chain...<SMIRK>

Thanks guys for the input, you pretty much confirmed what I already knew..the Hyd. is the way to go...not to throw rocks at the other guys, but I sure am glad I went with WM to begin with..I bought the biggest mill I could afford, not knowing much about it and was tickled to death with the results..WM is a *DanG good company to work with.

[Dan_Shade]

5 acres of timber will yield a lot of trees. 

without real equipment, I wouldn't want to touch a job that big (of course a real logger would probably laugh at that!)

you can definately put some lumber on the ground with a hydraulic, I've sawn 2300bf on two different occasions in a day, one of those days was a 12 hour day, but the other was an 8 hour day sawing poplar.  A super has some other advantages beyond the faster hydraulics, including the drive/up down motors, and faster band speeds than the regular hydraulic.

I'm constantly teetering on the edge of whether or not a super makes sense for my mill use, part of me thinks the extra money would just come down to more breaks so the help can keep caught up....

My advice is to sharpen your pencil, determine what you want to do, figure out how much lumber you'll need to saw to pay for a larger mill, and go from there.  I had a lot of "hidden" expenses pop up the first year after I bought my mill:  spare parts, more cant hooks, general repairs, maintenance costs, etc....  it all adds up.  Let alone the fact that you'll be using more bands!

That last note is kind of a seperate topic, but you should look into it if you want to get a bigger mill.

[Norm]

There's a lot of good common sense advice on this thread but let me add mine. Life is short and if you want a new tool or toy and can afford it by all means do so. You are like so many of us that work hard but have that sense of maybe I'm just being a spendthrift on a new purchase. I mean it's not like you're buying a sports car or something that depreciates the day you buy it. You're buying a tool that is an investment that pays back better than any 401K that some investment bank pithes off and then tells you that oh well we told you there were risks.

I have a super with full hydraulics and love it...and so does my back.

[JD350Cmark]

Zopi - I have not operated a non hyd mill, but seen a LT-15 in use and athough I can't comment if the HD is more prone to failures, I can say I have had no problems with mine.  I'd consider all this as a hobby for myself - I sell a little lumber to neighbors and do a few jobs here and there, but it's mainly for my own use. 

I'll just come right out and say it, hands down, no question that the accuset and hyd are good choices.  The accuset saves time which inturns saves you money in running time and producing lumber quicker & more accurate lumber.  You can use other equipment to turn logs/cants on the mill but that takes time to stop, get on the tractor, return to the mill etc........Hyd is the way to go.   

Now I kinda wished I went with the super, but I couldn't afford it.

Mark

[beenthere]

You guys make my job easy. I dont think I could add anything. Not many issues. Accuset 2 has been a great improvement.
Marty

The sponsors of the Forum get a ton of help from the members here...in so many ways. As well, the members get a lot of value and enjoyment from the forum (I'm going to remember Norm's advice  )

Here's hoping both the sponsors and the members continue to support the forum.


Both sides of the equation would lose without the Forum, and its admins.
Thanks Marty,  for the straight line. 

[pineywoods]

Couple of things not mentioned yet...Maintenance--Just about anything that can be done to an LT40, I've done it, including some that WM (wisely) tends to discourage. They are as easy to maintain as any similar equipment, easier than most. If you need help woodmizer runs a fleet of field service trucks, stocked with parts and manned by good people.

You briefly mentioned material handling.  That's the real killer. You probably already see the need for some help there. With a bigger mill, that need is gonna grow like crazy. Hydraulics on a mill won't help a bit when you are rolling logs across the yard with a peavy. A  tractor with a set of home-made forks on the 3 pt lift will go a long way toward saving your back. (pics in my gallery)Add a logging arch and you can handle them 5 acre plots.

Simply stated, anything you can do to take a load off your bod will pay off in the long run.

To quote Arky---sawing 1000 bd ft of lumber a day probably won't mess up your back, handling 7 tons of stuff by hand surely will...
 

[zopi]

O- I got over rolling logs around real quick...I've got a 40 hp diesel tractor and a 400 hp diesel truck, the log arch is on the short list. Probably that logrite fetching arch or something similar..I can see
a few other uses for one of those.

[ARKANSAWYER]

  As for them lasting, mine is close to 10,000 hours and over 2 million bdft.  You may wear out before the mill does.  But they can be fixed and you can get the parts with lots of advice on them.

[woodhick]

I started out over 25 years ago with a wore out circle mill.   Sold it when the kids come along.   Went a couple of years without a  mill and the withdrawls got me.  I was still young with a wife and two kids so money was tight.   I built a woodmizer clone.   Worked very well but it was strictly manual just like a LT40 manual mill.   Fast forward to about two years ago.  I leased the homemade mill to a local timber framer.   Well I was going thorugh withdrawls again, so I bought a used LT40 manual from another member here.  He had added some hydraulics to it (clamp, turner).   After I got it I bought the two plane clamp from woodmizer and installed on my mill and built a loader for it.  Mine is basically a LT40HD now minus the toeboards which will come next.   Long story short I would HIIGHLY RECOMEND getting the hydraulic mill!  Did I mention HIGHLY recomend.   I am not looking for high production numbers but the hydraulics just make it so much easier and none of us are getting younger.    Also I can't express how great woodmizers customer service is.  I deal with Marty Parsons of PA woodmizer  and he has helped me out with getting the parts for my mill,  he and Lisa are top notch and I use his resharp for my blades and have not had any problems.   

[customsawyer]

Well since you asked I will tell you. I think the hyd. are important enough that I had WM put them on my 24' ext. I have a extra valve bank just for the ext. I can turn and handle just about any log that comes my way.
I would also ask you to think about the auto clutch if you are going to be sawing full time it won't seem like much at the start of it all but after a whole heep of wood it starts to add up.

[LT40HDD51]

Personally I graduated from a bare-bones Kubota diesel Super, to a nearly-loaded Cat powered Super in '06.  I was amazed at a few things:

1. The Accuset, especially when sawing odd sizes of stuff, makes every cut go smoother and faster. No creating custom scales or figuring out, say, where to start to cut a cant into full size 1 3/4" stock or something. I had a friend recently who just saw us cut at a show for the first time comment that we look very "smooth" when we saw. I figure that has to be a good thing all around.

2. The Autoclutch both saves the arm big time (heavy diesel), and with the Accuset takes considerably less concentration than the manual handle. By this I mean a flick of two switches and my head is in gear and at the right height for the cut. About a second compared to maybe 5-10 seconds?

3. I like Lube-Mizer, especially when sawing very sticky wood and/or using expensive fluid in the winter time.

4. Debarkers are awesome for lots of dirty logs (but everyones logs are clean, right?).

5. Edgers are awesome (but thats a different story...)
 
It really boils down to how much you are going to use it. Ive likened it to a car: if you are going to drive it all day every day then you want air, cruise, tilt, etc. A base model is fine for driving once in a while.

For a used mill, I'd echo the two-plane clamp idea. I'd avoid the old Setworks and look for an Accuset or Accuset 2... Im also a big fan of diesels...

[zopi]

Well, I caught the wife thumbing through the '08 catalog today, and reading WM Way...of course, I >might< have left them in an easily accessible location...

I took my mother in law out today and had her saw a board on the -15..cut a piece out, planed and stained it..gonna have the kids sign it for grandma and varnish it for her...also took a dry pecan flitch and cleaned it up live edged and made a bread board for my father in law...stupid easy christmas present..

The family is enjoying the benefits of having a sawyer kicking around...so I'd imagine once the money comes available I will be in the market..gonna go LT-40 Hydraulic, unless I find a Super in whatever my price range happens to be...

Thanks for all the input, guys..it's not like we don't like talking about our mills...<G>

[ED B]

Control is great. It really helps in turning logs. It also gives you a table for your first cuts. The only way to go! A debarker is equally as important