Thinning pole pines

[Bro. Noble]

We have a pine plantation that was planted too thick in 1958 and was underthinned due to lack of a market.  We were able to get it thinned about 15 years ago and this past winter,  the small (under 10") were removed.  It now appears to be in fair shape for the time being,  but a utility pole company would like to buy the poles out of it.  A rough estimate is 20-25% of the trees.  I've learned that in our area if you get a good market for pine you'd better consider selling.  The company is reputable and we ,of course, could use the money.  

What I'm finally getting around to is how do you figger basal area?  I've got it in a book,  but no longer read fine print very well.  I don't have a prism,  but remember reading here that you could use your thumb.  My son is available to help me and we can use a tape if necessary.  What kind of range would be desirable for the basal area?  The trees are mostly from 10 to 14" dbh,  with some considerably larger.

Thanks for any suggestions.

[SwampDonkey]

Ron W will probably help you out with the angle guage method. That would be simplest and fastest without a prism. There is still some math involved though.

Distance from the eye to the gauge has to be the same each time you check a tree for "in" or "out", because otherwise that would throw the angle of your view site (guage) off each try. Stand at one fixed point over a broom stick and look at dbh level on your pine tree.

Quite simply, use a string tied through a drill hole in the cross arm sight, usually a rectangular piece of wood. The string is either extended from the neck or held up to the eye with the opposite hand, while the right hand holds the cross arm. You site from the loose end of the string through the wood site, kinda like sighting between a micro foot ball field goal post.

Here is where my math gets a little hazy and Ron can verify whether I'm right. SO don't go out there before you here from Ron or someone using these things.

So if you want a basal area factor of 10 ft²/acre:

Use a string of Length = 33 inches for example where:

 width  = 0.030303 x 33 inches

 so, a 1 inch wide site.

the 0.030303 is the gauge constant for a 10 ft²/ac gauge.

from Basal area factor = 10890 k², 10 = 10890 k², so k = 1/33 or 0.030303.
The big number is how many sq feet in an acre.


gauge constant is 0.030303 for a 10 ft²/acre gauge at 33 inches from the eye.

The info I have is pretty sketchy and no full explanation of the variables used. Crazy things like f_ti f_bi, D_i, or plain old F or D to make your eyes roll.


So each tally tree represents 10 ft²/acre. Note that different string lengths change the gauge constant and site width if you always want a fixed basal area factor of 10 like in this example.

[SwampDonkey]

Link to Michigan Penny angle gauge.

http://michigansaf.org/ForestInfo/MSUElibrary/AngleGaugeUse.PDF

My funky math seems to fit their method. I hope it's right anyway.

 I'm thinking a target of no less than 90 ft²/acre. So 9-10 trees post harvest per plot.

[beenthere]

I have half dozen prisms.  Which one do you want?   

Seems they are marked in "delta" with a number...3, 7, 4, 6..

And they have reference to BA of 16.31, and a number as sq

delta      BA factor
3            9.7
4            16.31
6            39.6
8            64.8

and
7             38 sq
 
Any help which one Bro noble might use, and how?  Been too long for me to recall.
Any help?
I'll send it to him right away. 

[SwampDonkey]

No more complicated than this.



Push a string through the hole, knot it so it doesn't pull out. Knot the other end at the 33 inch mark from the knot tied on the back of the gauge. Hold the knot on the loose end up below the eye with your left and hold the wood piece with the right. Tally (count) trees as wide or wider than the site notch (cut out), by looking at each tree at dbh (4.5 feet above ground). Oh, make sure your eye level is at 4.5 feet above ground and over the broom stick. Maybe you have a walking stick instead to beat the coyotes off. On sloped ground be aware of borderline trees because distance has to be horizontal when checking limiting distance for "in" or "out". That's only if you want to be a stickler. Write it down on a scratch pad for each plot, keep a running tally of the number of plots and counts for each. Easy peasy.

Now why did I say "back of the gauge"? Because I realized that the thickness of the block used will influence the 33 " length from the eye , and as anyone knows looking down a hallway for instance the far end looks narrower because of depth. That narrow end (because of depth perception) is where your gauging tree widths. If your using a real thin gauge it isn't going to make a lot of difference. It's not rocket science accuracy. More to do with consistency.

You can multiply 10 by trees tallied (counted) in a circular sweep divide by the number sample plots, right? Make sure the eye is always directly over the broom handle for each plot you swing 360 degrees as you count "in" trees.

[Radar67]

Push a string through the hole, knot it so it doesn't pull out. Knot the other end at the 26 inch mark from the face of the gauge. Hold the knot up below the eye with your left and hold the wood piece with the right. Tally trees as wide or wider than the site notch. Easy peasy.

Would be if the dimensions were added.  hole size? slot size? block size?

[SwampDonkey]

ONE "1" or won? ...errm inch wide cut out as stated earlier.

[SwampDonkey]

I think Ron W put something in the knowledge base about angle gauges didn't he?

[SwampDonkey]

Any help which one Bro noble might use, and how?  Been too long for me to recall.
Any help?
I'll send it to him right away. 

Any of'm would work, depending on how many trees you want to count. The bigger BAF the less trees. Just multiply those listed BAF's by the average tree count that's the ft²/acre.

[beenthere]

Well, that helps me recall how easy they were to use. Thanks.

And look what I found, by our own Ron.

http://forestry.about.com/library/weekly/aa121398.htm

Good account.

[SwampDonkey]

Ron used a 1:33 ratio for a 10 ft²/acre gauge BAF. Maybe when he comes on he can explain it. So, 1 inch wide gauge cutout with a 33 inch long string.

Never mind, I see here:

Basal Area Factor = 10890 k²

k = 1/33

width of cutout = 0.0303 x 33 inch long string
             = 1 inch wide cutout

Lets fix this mess above.

[SwampDonkey]

There, I cleaned up the math so it makes more sense to me now after studying it out and reading Ron's post in About.com. 

[SwampDonkey]

Check borderline trees of BAF 10 ft²/acre by multiplying tree DBH by 2.75. That's our 1 foot/12 inches divided by the 1/33 gauge constant. It's labeled our limiting distance factor, to see how far away (feet) we can be from the tree, beyond which the tree is out.

[SwampDonkey]

It's pretty much the same math as a prism, only I have never really used an angle gauge.

[Ron Scott]

Thin the pine to 90 square feet basal area (BA) with whatever tool you use to determine the stands current basal area which the foresters are already explaining the use of.

I'm a fan of the 10 factor prism myself for determining BA since it is so light weight and easy to carry to always have available.

The utility pole company will most likely want your largest diameter, tallest, and straightest trees, but again try to work with the "worst first" if they meet the utility's minimum pole specs. Keep improving quality and future valies with this second thinning.

[WDH]

Bro. Noble,

Get yourself a 10 factor prism.  You are worth it .

What kind of pine do you have?  Down here with our southern pines, 90 square feet is too much to leave. 

[SwampDonkey]

  I ain't saying a word. 

[Texas Ranger]

Bro Noble, have the purchasing company mark the stems they want, with no guarantee of sale.  You can prism the stand to death, but if you cannot grade a pole, then the information is worthless.  The poles taken will be high grading the stand, but if the money is right, go with it.

[WDH]

I agree with TR.  At 50 years of age, take the value.  The stand has performed about as good as it will.  After the poles are gone, you can reassess the stand for options.  In my area, poles bring the largest stumpage price of all products by a wide margin.  It is the apex product. 

[Bro. Noble]

Thanks a bunch folks

I've pulled ideas from your posts and an excellent PM from Roxie and have come up with plans for an angle gage and how to use it.  I'm also going to record readings from my thumb from each sample and calculate a baf for my thumb  It should be as accurate as an angle gage for me and anyone else with the same width of thumb and length of arm

WDH,  these are shortleaf pine.  I dug out my 'Manual of Southern Forestry'  and found that it reccomends thinning shortleaf pine at 120-130sq ft. but to leave at least 75 sq ft.  

I plan to see what we have on Sat. and will report back

[Gary_C]

I ain't saying a word. 

You must be running short?   

[WDH]

75 square feet sound good!

[SwampDonkey]

Yeah your probably right about the 75 ft²/acre, I'm used to 65 foot softwood at 50 years with silviculture. Your pine are probably 90+ foot.

[SwampDonkey]

I agree with WDH about poles being the cash cow. For us however, in the north a 50 year old pine is still quite young. Shows the difference in climate and species. 

[Ron Scott]

A major red pine utility pole company here that manages stands for utility poles recommends a little higher basal area so as to get additional quality pole harvests in later thinnings. They want the smaller diameter trees to continually develop into staight and tall poles by retaining a higher BA than usually recommended.

[Roxie]

I can't wait till he comes back and lets us know how he did....

[SwampDonkey]

I'm in agreement with Ron and our red pine.

[semologger]

Have you talked to MDC about giving ya a hand? Are you talking to the pole mill in licking. They are putting in a shaving mill also. Also wherhauser might be interested in alot of your trees in winona or birch tree cant remember which town. How many acres you have planted?

[Bro. Noble]

Well,  I made a gage and measured the trees.  We sampled several different sites and the ba varried from 170 to 260 with 215 being the averadge.  I guess we had better see if we can sell some poles   The baf of my thumb is a hair less than 20

Semologger,  I've learned lots from farm foresters in the past,  but the present one doesn't seem to be quite so anxious to help.   The conservation dept has a video library in Jeff City that was invaluable to us when we started out.  Their films on logging and milling and forest management really helped us.  The only cost was the return postage.

The buying station that weyrhauser had at Birch Tree shut down some time ago and I understand that they sold their chip and saw operation in Russelville Ark. where the pine was going.  There is a guy out of Mtn. Home that was buying pine (pulp I think) in Willow Springs,  but I don't know if he is still buying or not.  The pole operation at Licking is the only one in the area that I am aware of.  There are still a few post operations.  We sell to Missippi Valley out of Iowa.  They have different yards in the area.  Our posts have gone to Success,  Mo.  for the most part, but this last year they went to Salem.

Did the guys in Licking get in the cabin log business?  The last they came here,  they had purchased a huge peeler for cabin logs and were looking at a Baker mill that could saw them on one or two sides.  I guess I'll call them tomorrow,  Maybe we can sell them some big stuff too.

[semologger]

The mill in licking is called current river pole. I think anyways. They are buying telephone pole size stuff and peel them.  i dont think for log cabins just telephone poles. But i could be wrong. 

There is also a post mill in houston mo. they are  also cca treating plant.

The guy in mountain home is Scott Tucker. He also has a buying yard in Imboden Arkansas. He is not buying any pine pulp anymore. He still buys big pine i believe.
There is a shaving mill in california mo that buys pine also. They was coming all the down to my area and buying pine slabs.
I would like to see your pine stand I would like to compare it to all the goverment stands i have cut.
Thats about all i know about in your area.

[SwampDonkey]

Wow, that's a lot of wood chum. My thumb BAF is about the same as yours.

0.95" thumb, 22" arm, with thumb at 90°

k = 0.95"/22"
K= 0.04318

BAF = 10890 x 0.04318²
BAF = 20.3 ft²/ac

[Ron Scott]

Yes, a thinning is in order. 

[Bro. Noble]

Well,  the forester from the pole place came out this morning.  He said that they definately needed thinning,  but he thought that they should only be thinned to 90 or 100 ba.  His reasoning was that they were tall enough that there would be too much chance of wind and ice damage.  He says that he can mark enough poles to bring the ba down to that and then we can take out a bunch more poles in 6 or 8 years after the remaining trees have made some more growth and had stronger root systems.  He also said that our natural pines need thinning bad in places and that it looked like about 20% of them would make big poles,  although this wouldn't bring the ba down as much as it should be.  He suggested we wait till the market is better before taking sawlogs out,  however.

Tom and I went back to work and the forester started marking poles.  After lunch,  he came to tell us the bad news.  He'd come across a patch of three or four acres of planted pine that had been leveled thanks to Ike  and it looked like there might be another patch on the next ridge.   Lucky he found them and we have a market for them.  He said there were probably 6 or 8 loads of poles in the blown down  patch he looked at

Looks lide son Tom and I will be in the pole cutting business  just as soon as the deer hunters are out of the woods.

[semologger]

yep sound you will be having fun. Its hard this time of year in the pine tickets it always stays nice and wet. Seems like those needles hold water. I peeled me around 250 pine post this afternoon.

[SwampDonkey]

Sounds like your forester gave good advice on post BA. We had no idea the basal area was so high before your cruise. 

[Ron Scott]

Yes, the pole company forester gave good advice. Though I'm much more familiar with red pine management, thinning below 90 sq. ft. will open a stand up the heavy wind throw. Also thin lighter along the stand edges and exposures to prevailing heavy winds. Also more mosture is retained in the stand if not thinned too heavy aslong the edges.

I'm just speaking from USFS research experience in thinning red pine to different basal areas of 120 to 60. The 90 BA range produced the best management results.

[WDH]

I agree with SD and Ron.  Your starting basal area is much too high (dense) to thin to one of the lower basal areas like 75 sq-ft. 

I still think that at this stand's age, the trees have done their thing, and future growth will be too slow, even after thinning.  Once we get old, we don't grow as much .  Might be time to think about a reforestation plan after you take out the poles and then the sawlogs when the market gets a little better.  After you take the poles, you could harvest the balance of the stand in a few years when things are (hopefully) better.

[Bro. Noble]

The smaller stuff that was recently taken out was still growing slowly and you could see when the thinning occured 12 or 15 years ago.  The pole co. foresterthinks they are still making good growth.  It will be interesting to look at the growth rings on the larger ones after they are cut.

We are looking for someone to load and haul now and plan to start cutting as soon as deer season is over.  The pole man thinks we can get them loaded and hauled (about 60 miles)  for 10 or 12 dollars per ton.  Does this sound about right?

[Bro. Noble]

Well, here's an update on the utility pole business.

We've been cutting a couple of loads a week and skidding them to a landing where a fellow with a huge timberjack loader and a couple of west coast trailers loads and hauls them.  The area with the storm damage is a nightmare to work in,  but we are about through it and hope we don't run into any more.  The natural pine is turning out to be a real bonus with a lot of 50+ foot poles.  Those in the plantation are running about an equal amount of 35,40, and 45 footers.  We are getting somewhere around a load per acre.  We have post cutters lined up to follow us cleaning up what tops will make posts as well as the posts downed by the storm.  We are sawing the larger downed stuff that won't make poles into 16' 6X6 and 6X8 poles for the post company.  We have a few orders for pine lumber that we are producing sawing the 16 foot poles. We are sawing these on rainy days.

All in all, it is working out better than we dared hope.

Got a letter from our grade lumber buyer yesterday informing us that they are back to buying.  Red and White Oak FAS is $550   and then the prices drop fast   Sure glad we have another source of making a living.

[SwampDonkey]

Wow Noble, you've got quite an enterprise going. Sounds like your busy anyway, wish the price increases some .....soon. Softwood logs sure aren't a very good price, little better than half they were 4 years ago. I don't have any to sell, but glad my woods are still young.   Veener hard maple and birch are down $1000/mbf, not a recent drop, but the best is $1700/mbf here. Those are always hard to come by, still lesser veneer grades hover around $900. Never enough of those even in these parts with all the high grading that carries on. 

[SwampDonkey]

The guy in mountain home is Scott Tucker. He also has a buying yard in Imboden Arkansas. He is not buying any pine pulp anymore. He still buys big pine i believe.

Semo,

We have a Tucker Mountain Log Homes here in Williamstown, I wonder if there is a connection? I don't know of the name Tucker in these parts. So a possibility? Some of these log home outfits are global operations.

[semologger]

I dont think so. He just has a couple of buying yards i dont think he is that big of business.

Sounds like you have been having fun Bro Noble. I would hate to even think about cutting a pine thicket without my hydroax.