white cedar

[nas]

I'm going to look at some small EWC bushes in the near future.  They have already been marked and I am hoping to cut some this winter.  This is a new venture for me and I was wondering if anyone had some suggestions of what I should be looking for.  Is there a way of telling if there is centre rot by looking at the standing trees?  Any idea what I should be paying for them.  The cuts are all around 60 cords with average DBH about 10".  I will be milling it myself to sell to the local landscapers for outdoor structures.  I have a lot of contacts in the landscaping industry and have had a good response to questions about demand.
Thanks in advance
Nick

[beenthere]

I'..........  I have a lot of contacts in the landscaping industry and have had a good response to questions about demand.
...........

Is that "contacts" or "contracts"  ??  If the former, maybe lining up some actual sales before investing in the resource would be good. 60 cords is seems like a lot of wood to go into the landscaping industry, unless you have good alternative uses for this same size material.
 
But only mention it as a precaution. I hope the venture works for you.

You can sample bore a sample of some of the trees to test for internal decay, and then seeing if there are predictors or surface indicators that will point it out. However, if the trees are marked for cutting, you will likely need to cut them regardless, to meet your contract.

[Cedarman]

I absolutely cannot tell if a standing ERC has rot.  And I cant tell if a log has rot from the side unless a knot has a hole in it.  And I have seen millions of cedar logs. 

If EWC is anything like ERC  there is no way of telling.  If there is, I would love to know how.

[Kevin]

A hammer test will indicate a hollow tree.

[nas]

Thanks for the quick replies guys
Beenthere-I do not have actual contracts with the landscapers but I do know approx how much EWC they buy, and it would be enough to keep me busy.  The roughsawn look for garden structures is very popular right now and many of the landscapers are using doug fir or western red cedar for them and paying big $ for it.
 
  Another question is, how hard is it to make split rails?  I'm wondering if this would be something worthwhile to do with the smaller diameter stuff or should I just try to sell it as fenceposts?

Nick

[Cedarman]

Split rails are very easy to make.  Poor boy method is maul and wedge.  You must split through the heart.  a 6"  and 7" log will make 4 rails, an eight or nine inch log will make usually 6 rails each.

We made a long splitter capable of 11' using a long I beam with a 4 way or 6 way splitter at one end and a 4" x 2' stroke cylinder that we could slide along the I beam as we pushed the log through the splitter.  3 people can split 60 plus rails per hour. 1 runs hydraulics and other 2 handle log and rails.

[nas]

Thanks cedarman
  Another question
How many cords can two men cut and skid in a day assuming good access and a 100-200yd skid, using a small tractor with a skidding winch?  I'm just looking for rough high and low numbers to give me an idea of how long it will take.

Nick

[SwampDonkey]

Depends on the ground, if the cedar grew up in an old field. I'd say 5 or 6 cords. If it's growing on low land, then your beat before you start. We have large stands of EWC here in NW New Brunswick and no tractor is going to work in those stands. You'll be hung up or sunk in the mud to the oil pan. We had the odd piece with firm ground here, but mostly when you cut cedar here you end up with cat tails and willows for your next crop until about 10 years when you see new seedlings poking their heads up among the weeds.

Everyone here tends to over harvest cedar and leave the rest to blow down. When dad and I cut cedar on the farm you could hardly tell where we were. We cut mostly rails and some logs just to thin our ground.

[Night Raider]

This reply might be a little late, but I'll try to help anyway.  if there are any holes in the trees from wood peckers etc... the cent're will be hollow, more holes bigger hollow usually.  Where are you cutting this cedar?  I cut a bunch recently off my property not too far from you.  Highland cedar is better quality and easier to skid, but there is less of it around.
I'd be interested to hear how thing turn out.

Good Luck

[SwampDonkey]

Yeah, highland cedar would be cream. Not much left around here, most was cut and wasted with very small rot pockets into it. I saw some just laying on the ground rotting on crown land harvests. Some was close to 3 feet on the but end. Shame, not to be able to market it. These big outfits only handle spruce/fir and aspen/hardwood pulp. Cedar mills are getting scarce.

[Night Raider]

there is some highland cedar around me, that's what I harvested, we have a couple cedar mills but a lot won't toch it.  I find harvesting cedar pretty satisfying escpecially on dry land, it always seems like the equipment is working better then it is.

[SwampDonkey]

As long as it's working. 

[Polly]

  i put a 18 inch erc on saw couple weeks ago it looked perfect on the outside i thought i made a few cuts and lo and behold about biggest ants nest i ever seen and i thought ants and termiteswould not bother cedar i guess i am never to old to learn 

[Night Raider]

One of the cedar logs I was cutting up had a mouse in the centre hollow.  The log had about a 1.5" hollow and after pulling off one of the boards close to the middle there was half a mouse, it looked very fresh, not the smartest rodent around.

[SwampDonkey]

If it were my cedar and my mill I would saw it anyway. Often all there is for rot is pocket in the but, most often carpenter ant cavities. About the best way to tell is by core sample or the blunt blow of an axe and look for seems in the bark. You will usually find an ant entry hole and sawdust from their excavation. They don't eat the wood, just make galleries. Many times there is no sign of rot and it's tiny little pencil sized pockets that run out in short length. Dad paid for white cedar back 30 years ago that was tongue and grooved. It was suppose to be clear. It was full of knots holes with shrinkage so dad had to fill the holes and some even had a little carpenter ant cavity here and there. And some that pencil rot no fatter or longer than a pencil. Cedar of any size up here such as 14" is very very old stuff. Some on the farm was close to 200 years old and didn't average 12". Other places it was much younger on better drained ground. On those wet sites, if you didn't have cedar you'd have nothing. Aspen won't grow in water, about the only other thing would be tamarack and the moose will rip that to heck. I have some tamarack I planted that is 15 feet tall and I don't know how they are doing it, but they will bend those trees down to the ground. And there you have a tree with permanent bend now growing laterally instead of vertical. 

[Maineloggerkid]

IN my area, if there is moss creeping up the tree, there will likely be some degree of butt rot. usually I can cut about a foot of and it will sound up. ON a 200 yrd. skid, MY worker and I were cutting 7-8 cord in a 8 hour day.

[nas]

Thanks for the replies guys.  Just when I thought this thread was dead!
I hope to be starting in a week or so.  Hopefully they don't get much more snow, they already have a foot or more!  The place is only half a hour north of me and we only have 2 inches.  I has also been cold so the wet spot should be frozen.  Most of the cedar is high and dry but there is a wet spot between the two patches that I have to cross.  I will keep you posted and maybe even take some pictures!

Nick

[Night Raider]

depending how far north you are they got a fari bit of snow up there.  How many cords did you end up buying?  How long do you think you're going to take to cut it?

[nas]

The cedar is just SE of Fergus.  If you go another 1/2hr north to Arthur they have close to 2' of snow.  I am near Milton.  I bought about 35 cords and about 20 cords of big white pine on the same cut.  I hope to do it in a couple of weeks depending on the weather and the help I can get.  My help is a landscaper so if it snows he is unavailable.

[Night Raider]

Even near Fergus it won't be long until there is 2' of snow, what are you using to skid?  It should be good cutting in the bush now before digging out the stumps becomes necessary.  Sounds like you shouldn't be at it all winter with those quantities.  I hope everything goes well for you.