college helpful?

[vtbuckslayer]

I am currently going to school for an associates degree in forestry.  Wondering what people have for schooling and if it paid off in the long run. and two vs. four year.  i believe its a common assumption the more years of schooling the more money you will make.  i was also thinking about two associates one as a forest tech and one for urban tree management?  just looking around trying to get a feel for the years to come. thanks

[Texas Ranger]

Graduate forester, run my own business, the more education the better, but, a little education wrongly applied will cause problems.  Or, in other words, get as much education as you can, work for someone else till you are educated in what you want to do.  A college degree with no experience is just that, a degree.

[woodmills1]

I went to college first for engineering tried and didn't take, then did masters in math education did tha 27 years.  Now i haul and cut trees

[Ron Wenrich]

BS in forest science.  I've been a procurement forester, a consulting forester, a utility forester, a logger and now I make my living in sawmills. 

You can try it without a degree, but the degree will open doors.  You can learn things through experience, but you'll learn it faster with a degree to back you up.

The 4 year degree gets you into management.  You might not be interested in that right now, but you'll appreciate it further down the line. 

[beenthere]

........  i believe its a common assumption the more years of schooling the more money you will make.  ........

Welcome to the forum.
Keep in mind that the years of schooling and the money you will make are not automatic. The money you make regardless of the schooling you have will be (mostly) directly proportional to the effort you put forth in the job. The schooling should help you with the tools to put forth that effort, be it the technical jargon needed or the pitfalls you need to avoid. Do wish you the best, and would encourage you to seek schooling in the area that seems most exciting to you at this time.

A daughter of mine went to business school, and came out with a degree and high grades. So much talk and bragging from the business school that all their graduates obtained jobs upon graduating. About a month after graduation, she was very depressed that she didn't have a job. We then realized that she thought of her degree as the 'ticket' to a job, and that she'd be scooped up by an employer right away. After sorting that out, she put her energy into applying herself and going after work. Became quite successful in the business world, and bowed out to raise a family. But it was a lesson learned.

[WDH]

Undergraduate Forestry degree and stayed on for a Masters.  I believe that it was well worth it.  You should consider a 4 year degree if you have the finances and the will to apply yourself.

[Clark]

As one who has a bachelors in forest management and am currently trying to work my way into a forester position (as compared to a forest technician), I would highly recommend getting the four year degree.  With either degree you will (most likely) start out doing some sort of inventory work or other repetitive work that the foresters don't want to bother with.  This is good for you because it forces you to see the woods from a forestry perspective, that is, with some objectiveness about what is happening in the forest.  It also gives you experience that can be applied anywhere in the US.  Inventory is basically the same whether it is in the SE or the interior west.

Now some people can do inventory and cruise work for years and never tire of it.  That tends to be the minority group.  The rest of us get sick of doing the same exact thing every day.  Once you have several years experience as a technician you're a better qualified candidate to do things like set up timber sales, mark timber (although that tends to be an entry-level job also), inspect others doing the inventory, etc.  You've been in the woods long enough to know what's going on.  At that point you can hopefully get a job as a forester where your work will hopefully be more varied, you'll have more responsibility and get paid better.  Unless you have a two year degree, then it is very difficult to move beyond the technician level jobs, many of which happen to be inventory and/or cruising.

If you can do it, get the four year degree.

Clark

[Dan_Shade]

I don't have a forestry degree, mine is a BS in electrical engineering, with that said:

Education will open doors for you and allow you to make your own path much easier.  I'd highly recommend the 4 year degree too.  sometimes, I wish I had stuck through a masters, but then again....

If you wisely market yourself, you can do things much easier with a 4 year degree (kind of what Beenthere is saying).   The older I get, and more professional experience I acheive, I realize the value of my education. 

Also, no one can take your education away from you.

[Dodgy Loner]

I have a B.S. and an M.S. in forestry from UGA.  It definitely made me a more desirable candidate for the jobs I applied for, and I'm very glad that I stuck with it to get the M.S.  I would highly recommend that you go ahead and pursue your four-year degree, or you will eventually hit a ceiling (this is true in the world of business and even more so if you work for the government, like I do).  If you intend to be self-employed or to work for a small company, you are more likely to be rewarded for your efforts rather than your education.

[Dan_Shade]

you'll find that your education influences how you persue your efforts!

just don't get snooty about it

[iffy]

When my son graduated with a bachelor's in wildlife and parks management, he found that all the permanent government jobs in his field required a master's degree. He was lamenting to me about the requirement, and how he didn't see that the work really required a master's. I told him when you have a glut of graduates in your field, as there was at that time, the easiest way to weed out 2/3 to 3/4 of them was to require a master's for the job. He went thru a series of seasonal jobs and then finally landed permanent work. After several years of experience he was able to bid into a job in the locality he wanted to work in.
Bottom line, get all the education you can afford, and probably some that you can't afford.

[woodtroll]

Get at least the four year. It gives a good base for your real education when you start working in forestry.
Plus I highly recommend summer work in forestry or your field. 
The combination of work experience and education is a lot more desirable in an employee.

[thecfarm]

vtbuckslayer,wishful thinking or have a few bucks under your belt all ready?I do want to welcome you to the forum.Good luck with your education.

[Black_Bear]

Speaking of bucks, I traveled to Bangor on Friday and saw a nice buck in the 200 lb. range crossing Rt. 156 at the McCrillis Corner Road intersection. He ran up across the field past some posted signs and the house and into a stand of white pine. This was at about 5:45AM.

VTBuckslayer: VT is a different animal because it doesn't offer a foresters license. Other northeast states that require a license have different avenues that you can take when it comes to school and experience requirements. Figure out where you want to live and what you want to do for a career, and that should dictate which degree you should get.

I think my 4 year Forest Operations degree has opened many doors for me that a 2 year degree wouldn't open and that is all I could ask for. Of course, working hard and being disciplined will go a long ways also.


 

[cantcutter]

The average hunter in Vermont takes one buck every 10 years...My father-in-law is below average...he hasn't taken one in 32 years

On the education front...What do you plan to do with the degree...that has everything to do with it... If you are willing to relocate to a different part of the country for work than by all means go for the 4 year (Keep in mind that most bachalor'degrees are only good as prep for graduate school) and then a masters... If you want to stay part in that part of the country get the two year and go to work....

My wife and I are both from Vermont... I have a BA in Political Science and she a Masters in Medical Genetics... we moved out of the northeast going on 6 years ago because neither of us could find work there.

[Cedarman]

BS  Geoscience and more schooling to be a math teacher.  Worked oil industry for 7 years, taught math 4 years and about 30 years ago started a custom haybaling operation and then small scale sawmilling and now a decent business involving ERC.

I thought college was a great 4 years.  Get as much as you can afford, but also participate in some of the organizations, go to the events, take in some ball games, be active participant in all that college has to offer (well not really all).  Savor the experiences.  Get to know your professors so that they know you personally.  Get to know all of the students in your area of study.  When you get out, and after a few years call some of your teachers up and let them know how you are doing.

Good luck

[okmulch]

B.S foresty from Purdue, built sawmill in Alabama and ran it for nine years moved to Oklahoma and now grind cedar trees for a living.
Sawmill was family business so I got degree for backup plan if cedar business does not work.

[vtbuckslayer]

thanks everyone for the input.  i will be graduating in the spring as a forest technician from paul smiths college.  i think about gettin out of the northest and heading to the midwest for my last two years. get a little different perspective in another part of the country. thanks again

[pappy19]

Actually, a 2 year Associates degree will open more doors than a 4 year degree. If you look at the Federal(U>S> Forest Service, BLM and state forestry jobs) you will find many more opportunities for work than you will as a "professional" forester. I almost went to Paul Smith's and it is known as a fine forestry tech school. I would suggest that you look at the western states for any possible jobs, just to get the experience. Unfortunately, forestry as a whole, is at the bottom of the employment possibilities, but will be on the way up as the "no-forest management" crowd is getting scorched with the forest fires due to no management. Things will change eventually.

[Ron Wenrich]

When I graduated with a 4 year degree, there were no jobs at the government level.  I know of one guy that got a technician's job at the state.  He had a Masters plus military preference.  He is now the head of the district. 

[Good Feller]

Overall college was helpful for me (I have a 4 year degree in forestry).  If it wasn't for college I wouldn't even be able to turn this computer on right now.  I'd be living in the darkages. 

People that hire have degrees.  They know what kind of a person it takes to stick with college until graduation and that's who they want working for them. 

  

   

[footer]

I am working in IT and do not have a degree in anything yet. I am working on an SAP implementation project, and the only reason I got the job was because of, one, I had almost 20 years of plant maintenance experience, and 2, I happened to work for a company that went on SAP and used it for 6 years. Also since I dont have a degree, I was hired basically at the bottom of the payscale. There are people making probably twice my wage because of their education, not because of what they know. Since I dont have a degree, the experience got me the job. Now that I am in a corporate job, The degree is pretty much a must to go any where. They kind of look at you like a nobody with out it.
BTW, I have just started schooling this fall to get a degree in IT.

[Black_Bear]

Hey cantcutter, don't know where you get your figures but most of my friends and I shoot at least one buck every year in VT. Of course, we are loggers, truckers, or foresters so we can be scouting almost every day of the year.    One of the perks of the job I guess.

Now, if you are talking trophy bucks then I can see your point. VT has recently instituted a spikehorn law (can't shoot them) and we can't shoot does here in the Northeast Kingdom so maybe that will help with the trophy population. I've seen more deer this year than any other year I can remember. And although there are nice bucks shot here, most trophy hunters go to Maine, to the midwest U.S., or to Canada for trophies.

vtbuckslayer: I understand about the different perspective, but look into UMaine's Forestry program. It's topnotch and it will get you closer to the trophy bucks. Nothing like parading a nice buck around campus, especially Nutting Hall. I know quite a few people who went from Paul Smith's to Maine and did quite well in everything from Forestry to Fisheries.

[jon12345]

Did you check out any of the job fairs that they have up there?

[scsmith42]

VTBuckslayer - there is some great advice by others already on this string, and I agree with just about all of it.

I'd like to add a different slant for you to think about though...

A college education can provide you with "vocational training"; it can provide you with "intellectual training", or a combination of both.

I view speciality degrees -whether it be in finance, engineering, forestry, medicine, law, etc, as a type of vocational training.  Studies in these areas will help you with your career, but may not necessarily make you a better person.

A classic liberal arts education though, should help you to develop your mind and character, which is what I refer to as "intellectual training" above. 

If you are able to, try to study in both areas.  Over the long term, you'll probably learn more "on the job" in terms of "vocational training", but the liberal arts education that you receive in school can help provide you with an excellent foundation for life.

Best of success to you!

Scott

[Cedarman]

I wonder why they call it liberal arts education rather than conservative arts education?
Back in the 60's they made us take things like anthropology, philosophy, english, speech, world history etc even though I was going after a geoscience degree.  It is good to take courses outside your main area of study. scsmith42 has it right, but don't get to liberal

[cantcutter]

Hey cantcutter, don't know where you get your figures but most of my friends and I shoot at least one buck every year in VT. Of course, we are loggers, truckers, or foresters so we can be scouting almost every day of the year.    One of the perks of the job I guess.

My information may be a little dated. It is from one of the state hunting flyers that the DFW puts out every few years.... I know people up there who take a buck every year, a few of them have even been cited for shooting at those sawdust filled deer 

I usually come back every year to hunt, but am skipping this year...can't afford the trip and that out of state license is a killer. I think it should be once a Vermonter always a Vermonter  

[beenthere]

Like in Wisconsin.
There are hunters, and there are those who just buy hunting licenses.  (and there are non-hunters who poach and kill without regard to the hunting laws  )
For the roughly 10% who hunt (scout their area, know the deer habits, know where other hunters are located (as well as the habits of the other hunters), know how long to stay on a stand to be successful, and a few other things....they will be 90% successful. (At least my 44 years of hunting leads me to believe that).
And I know of no one who is poaching to get their game...or who get the stuffed decoys at night.
 But apparently they are out there.

[snowman]

When I was a kid just starting out, foresters were mostly just wore out old loggers. They knew your problems, they been there done that.They were easy to get along with and didn't have that attitude so many of todays foresters have. If your a logger, you know the attitude I mean. 

[SwampDonkey]

Worn out old loggers, were just that. But they sell themselves to the public as foresters often times. I call them jack legs. Foot up on a stump or tire rim, leaning hard, telling yarns to anyone who gives them an audience. 

[snowman]

Thanks swampdonkey for an example of the "attitude" I spoke of.    I am only home to vote, then ill be back in the brush out of state, not causing problems in here so relax, it's a passing storm.

[SwampDonkey]

I haven't an attitude, but foresters have been around for quite awhile. For me It's like calling an auto mechanic a heart surgeon. Who do you want to do the surgery? Sure, not all foresters are your best friend it's like any other profession.

[WDH]

Don't blow away (reference to the passing storm) too soon, snowman, tell me more about the attitude you are talking about.

[beenthere]

I personally knew/know professional foresters who were professional in the 50's and 60's, and referenced others before them who were professionals.
All were not 'worn-out loggers' posing as foresters.

Not saying that the intent of present-day professional foresters has the same focus as those in the 50's, as there are many more concerns to include in the decisions now-days. Probably much tougher decisions today, but with more access to techniques and systems to help make those decisions.

Back then, the concern/objectives appeared to be managing the forests for timber, and do it in a way that was safe to the land and the ecology, as well as move the resource to usable products.
Then came the "tree huggers" (as a generalized category of many) who realized they had the power to control the decisions of professionals simply by mailing in post cards to a federal judge and putting a halt on the professional decisions. (We should exercise our power to the same judge system to put a stop to raising marijuana on our forests... )

This is a broad generalization, but there were also good professional foresters back in the day.
Not saying there were not some worn-out loggers who also were doing forestry work. 

[snowman]

"Wore out ole logger" I am rapidly becoming one , wasn't meant as a slur. Those guys knew their ummm, stuff. They mostly went to work for whatever mill they had been logging for. When they set up a job it went smoothe. They knew where skid trails needed to be,not needed to be technically in a class room on a chart, but in real life.When they marked timber they had an eye that saw, wheres some guy gonna put this tree, is this really possible? Many college foresters mark timber like you can surgically remove a tree, magically even.Then they cry, whine, threaten, when you cut a leave tree to fall a tree they marked.Any cutter in this forum knows of what I speak.Then theres the attitude. Those guys were loggers, no better no worse than you.Some, maybe most college foresters have an, I went to college, I'm better, smarter,above you. I tried to fall a tree on one of these guys once, missed though. In summation I'll admit, there are good college foresters out there, few and far between but I count some as friends.Now I'm going hunting.

[Ron Wenrich]

Some, maybe most college foresters have an, I went to college, I'm better, smarter,above you.

I've been the recipient of this kind of thinking.  Yep, I went to college, I've also logged, been a procurement and consulting forester, and worked many a hardwood mill in capacities from lumber stacker to manager.  But, it all boils down to the above statement.  My achievements, whether educational or avocational, are always somehow diminished because I'm a college graduate.

I've seen foresters do exactly as you say.  They don't expect damage to residual trees.  But, I've also seen loggers that couldn't log a tract without doing excessive damage.  Like the ones that were using a stream as a skid road.  (Actually happened).  Or the one that was logging when it was so wet that they had mud go into their air intake.  There's enough attitude on both sides of the spectrum.

I've also seen some of the loggers that do their own marking.  They have years of experience marking and logging.  Some are 2nd and 3rd generation loggers.  I sure wish that they had some educational structure to back up the markings.  Most jobs are high grades.  To be fair, I've seen foresters do a pretty efficient job of high grading. 

Experience can be a good teacher or a bad teacher.  But, if you've been doing something wrong for 20 years, its still wrong.  Joining education with experience yields a highly productive work force.  Unfortunately, much of the forest industry is too fragmented to see it that way. 

[Black_Bear]

People, both outside and within the timber industry, tend to stereotype loggers and foresters. And as we all know this phenomenon is not exclusive to the timber professions.

From what I've seen, communication between logger and forester is the key to a successful relationship. If a forester wants something done a certain way and the logger doesn't understand why, then there can be problems. If the forester doesn't have a clue about what it takes to efficiently cut and move the wood, and the logger doesn't communicate the issue(s), then there can be problems. Most loggers will get a hair across their bums if you just tell them what to do and don't explain why, and most of that stems from what snowman is talking about. They don't want to be controlled by some college educated green forester who has never felled or skidded a tree and doesn't account for the reality of the situation. There is a little give and take with all professions. It is our job to figure out where to draw the lines.

Everyone has different backgrounds and beliefs. A professional forester, either through personal experience or from a reliable source, will realize the traits (good and bad) of the logger he/she are working with and use the loggers strengths and weaknesses to his/her advantage. Understanding the capabilities of a logger can be the difference between a quagmire and a successful operation. And I strongly agree that the combination of education and experience is a recipe for success in the 21st century. 

We shouldn't generalize and lump everyone into a stereotype, but we do.   

 

[FFLM]

I also went to PSC, graduated with BS in eco. forest mgnt.  four years ago.  Would strongly suggest the BS as you will have many more job options.

[OneWithWood]

FFLM, welcome aboard! 

Check out the personality types thread and tell us a bit about yourself. 

[chainspinrunner]

  Well, don't NOT do something you will regret later on. ya know what I mean.

[BrandonTN]

I can imagine the conflict in the woods on the job between the seasoned logger and the degree-holding, greenhorn forester. In fact, I've just now for the first time realized the inevitability of me experiencing this once I graduate and begin the School of the Real World    How will I handle it?

I can imagine it's important, like someone mentioned above, for the forester to communicate why he wants what he wants done to the stand. They don't teach this kind of lesson in class....atleast not yet.  

[Dan_Shade]

Brandon, just don't be cocky about having a degree, always take the highroad when you're getting blasted by an old grumpy guy.

Over time you'll see why those types of guys can't get out of the rut they're in, and you'll see the real benefits of an education.  But at the same time, you will be able to appreciate why those guys have the opinions that they have, even if they are a bit misguided....

[WDH]

Always make sure that your standards and expectations are clear, then ask their opinion on the best way to achieve them.  You set the standards/goal, but always ask the more experienced on the best way to achieve them.  If your standards/goals are unachievable or unreasonable, listen to the feedback.  In the end, you (and the landowner, or mill, or whomever you are working for) establish the outcome. 

[Gary_C]

I can imagine the conflict in the woods on the job between the seasoned logger and the degree-holding, greenhorn forester. In fact, I've just now for the first time realized the inevitability of me experiencing this once I graduate and begin the School of the Real World    How will I handle it?

You will do just fine if you remember that your college education was a means of giving you the tools to do your new job and a little bit on how to use these tools. It's exactly like medicine where we can send someone to medical school, but after they graduate we do not let them be brain surgeons.

And just remember that a college education does not mean that you have all the answers, it just says that you have the tools to obtain the answers. And recognize that some experienced people, college educated or not, can get the same answers without as much effort as you will need.

To apply this to the job of forester, the best example I can give is your degree will allow you to mark a stand for thinning, but it cannot tell you how to mark the stand so a logger can cut the marked trees without doing a lot of damage to the remaining trees. So just knowing what you want to do is not enough. You will also need to know what needs to be be done to complete the job with minimum damage, hopefully. 

[SwampDonkey]

I always found that if you are marking timber, you have to mark the trails at the same time. Anything in the trails goes and the final passes on that trail you remove the skun up stuff, working from the rear toward the yard.

One of the worst things I've experienced is inheriting a job site. That is where the harvesting crew started out with one guy and it gets passed on to you. The worst case is when harvest method changes. I stepped into one job where a forest technician was looking after a job for a town woodlot with horse loggers. Everyone involved said they were select cutting. When, the retired technician moved on I inherited the job. We had no working relation what soever, although I knew him. When I got to the job site all I saw was a moon scape and what sections were left I was told to mark timber. The land was gullied and side hills and really not meant for horses. The town was told this in the preceding talks before we took over the job. But, they wanted to keep these guys on. They didn't like the new way of harvesting and didn't like it that they were no longer going to have roads all over the place. They had built to roads so that the skidding was down hill. That was all well and good, but the wood had to be hauled out on mighty steep roads that a lot of truckers would not go near. Ironically, most of the harvesting that summer was actually done to prepare roads to access distant timber because they had cleaned everything they come to previously. What I soon realized was that they didn't like the fact that finally someone was out there looking after the job for once. As they couldn't cut everything in sight from now on and build roads everywhere. I think they knew their days were numbered out their because of how hard it was to skid wood by horse. They figured all this road building was for someone else. And it looked like it was going to be soon enough. But, at the same time they got paid for their efforts and we even gave them a $10 a cord bonus. Then as things started tightening up as far as being able to yard wood, they wanted spur roads all over that side hill of a place. I said no, we weren't going to build roads all over, else the soil would be in the brooks. Then the confrontations. Then I said enough for that year and I wanted no more to do with it.

Then the next year my boss gets a new job somewhere else for a contractor. He takes over the job and cleans the woodlot to a moonscape. There were big red spruce in there that were over 300 years old. While I was taking some on the roads and leaving a good number off to the sides in my marking scheme. Why that place had never been harvested was the fact that it was the town water supply. They had another lot across the river for the other half of town. It was also cut clean and was once a water supply as well.

I hated that job and will never get in the middle of a job again under those circumstances. There was a management plan done on that lot by a third party, I followed it, everyone else must of made toilet tissue out of it. 

[pappy19]

I'm not so sure I understand all of that. I do have a few pointers that might help.

1) If you are marking timber, mark the crap first and add enough good stuff to make it worth it to the logger.

2) If you inherit a job, do the best you can with what you have to work with. What I mean is this: don't mark skid trails. Let the logger make his own choice as long as he isn't barking up the leave trees. Marked skid trails are terrible to the land. They compact the soil, wipe out vegetation and are almost impossible to reclaim. Loggers choice on skid trails usually mean they take the fastest and easiest route to the landing. Normally that means they don't skid the same way more than once or twice. Thus the soil isn't so compacted that reveg can occur.

3) Make sure that logging roads are no more than 6% grade and then use water dips instead of water bars. Water bars tend to blow out when wet or over traveled. Water dips( depressions leading from upslope to downslope) at a good angle, let the water go off of the road and still allow travel.

4) If possible never windrow slash and burn, always broadcast burn. By that I mean if you have a clear cut, leanve all of the slash natural as was cut. Run a Cat blade around the clear cut and burn in the fall. If you windrow and burn, you will degrade the existing vegetation and the windrow burn will sterilize the soil due to the high temps with the consentrated burn.

5) Selective cuts, if at all possible, should have all cut trees hauled unbucked and unlimbed to the landing. All limbing and bucking should be done at the landing. All of the slash can then be chipped or burned in one spot.

6) Culverts should be placed in roads in the proper manner so they will work!! Inslope roads with culverts on corners are the only way to keep roads from washing out. Also, velocity disapaters on the ends of culverts at key locations will keep drainages from being overloaded with runoff.

7) Revegetation in snow country should happen at Labor Day (September 1-10) or forget it until spring. I used to get 100% success by seeding roads and skid trails on a snowmachine in March over the snow. Higher elevations can go later.

Hope this helps-

Pappy

[SwampDonkey]

As far as skid paths, at least in this area, that's where you get some of the best regen. Skid paths are placed so that you don't have machinery running into sensitive areas to begin with. I prefer to leave limbs on site and dispersed skid paths if possible, often times more practical on clearcuts. Also, I do believe in bucking to length on site. That takes a well trained logger who knows his markets. Most loggers here have pulpwood tunnel vision and most harvested volume is by far pulpwood and the market is tree length. As far as trails, whether you mark them or not, once established they are used repeatedly especially if accessible areas are limited by the terrain your on and if the site is not clear cut. You can't disperse trails as easily as drawing lines on a flat map. When trails are marked, it's to avoid sensitive areas and thin areas out and leave nothing to guessing. That is to say, the trails that are marked are accessible by man and machine if done properly. It is also meant to take the head scratching away from the logger among all this marked timber. I have found unmarked trails ends up with loggers trying to snake through trees increasing damage. Trail marking works here anyway and most times you can't find the trails after 5 years. The best spruce regen occurs on skid trails, just keep the trails out of the mud holes, rock outcrops and boulder fields. Here a machine working on crown land has to follow marked trails, even if clear cut. Commercial thinnings are all marked to. Never a problem with getting regen, usually way too much regen. That's why we have pre-commercial thinnning programs.

[vtbuckslayer]

everyones input has been extremely helpful everyone has a different point of views allowing me a few perspectives on everything.  I also agree that pre planned roads are the best.  Loggers are in the woods to produce wood.  my father prefers marked trails because he knows where he has to go and that it must be the best root not geting halfway to the next section of timber and realizing you can not get there.  It also takes a stress load of the logger with there being so many regulations on where your aloud to go in the woods and what places are off limits. some loggers dont think about these considerations and run mud up to the belly pan of the skidder and before they know it they have the USDA involved.  just a couple things i have picked up myself.  keep the information coming its always welcome.
thanks

 another buck down this weekend 7 pointer 6th in ten years. not to bad of odds ehh?  just for all those fellas that seemed to think vermonters couldnt kill deer..

[Ron Wenrich]

I think Pappy makes some good points.  When I was marking, I would rarely mark skid trails.  Only if there were areas that were hard to get to.  A lot of those areas would be described in the bid prospectus and would be covered during the timber tour.  It allowed bidders to see our thought process.

If I were to mark skid trails, then I would know the best way the timber is to be cut and the best way to skid it out.  I would also have to be able to know the different types of equipment each logger would have and how good the operators are, then factor all that in to have the best road placement.  The perspective changes as soon as you are on top of a piece of equipment.  I've always allowed discretion on the part of the logger.  He knows his capabilities and his equipment's.  I also expect the logger to be a pro and log a stand with the least amount of impact.  His daily experience often would trump my trail marking experience.

I always found it best to work with a logger in a relaxed and professional manner.  I'm overseeing the logging job and pointing out where there are problems.   

[LorenB]

I am currently going to school for an associates degree in forestry.  Wondering what people have for schooling and if it paid off in the long run. and two vs. four year.  i believe its a common assumption the more years of schooling the more money you will make.  i was also thinking about two associates one as a forest tech and one for urban tree management?  just looking around trying to get a feel for the years to come. thanks

To get back to the original topic, I have several thoughts on some of the posts here.  First, vtbuckslayer, I strongly recommend getting the four-year degree (a bachelor's) instead of the two two-year degrees (two associate degrees).  I'm sure you'll get a better education as well as open more doors with the bachelor's degree. 

It's more than assumption that you make more money with more education -- it's a fact.  In your lifetime, you will earn WAY more money if you got the degree when you were younger. 

My story is that I have a BS in Civil Engineering.  I have never worked as a civil engineer, and I'm retired now.  I was in ROTC and went from college to Navy Flight School.  I would never have gotten into the military as an officer unless I had a four-year degree.  In flight school, I used my understanding of vectors and forces to get good grades in ground school.  The education didn't go to waste just because it wasn't engineering.  That's been my experience throughout my forty years after graduation.  My education was never wasted, even though I wasn't trained specifically for the job I was doing at the time.  You don't need a college degree to fly airplanes, but it does make it easier to understand what's happening to your aircraft. 

You DO need a four-year degree to even get an interview with any major airline (and probably the minor ones too).  If you don't have that degree, you are wasting your time even to apply.  There are lots of positions like that.  They won't even consider you unless you have that degree. 

Get one. 

Loren

[LorenB]

The average hunter in Vermont takes one buck every 10 years...My father-in-law is below average...he hasn't taken one in 32 years

vtbuckslayer,

You mentioned the possibility of moving to the Midwest.  If you are after bucks, come to southeastern Indiana.  I saw two just two days ago out my back window.  There was a herd of five does crossing the road as I drove the five miles into town yesterday.  This year the limit for our county is one buck and EIGHT does! 

The drawback to hunting in Indiana is that you can't use a "real" rifle.  The only rifles that are allowed are those that fire a pistol cartridge, such as a carbine that shoots a .44 Magnum.  Shotguns, muzzleloaders, and bows are all allowed. 

Loren

[LorenB]

thanks everyone for the input.  i will be graduating in the spring as a forest technician from paul smiths college.  i think about gettin out of the northest and heading to the midwest for my last two years. get a little different perspective in another part of the country. thanks again

Purdue is known for its excellent School of Forestry.  Right here in Indiana, where all those bucks live. 

Loren
(Purdue grad)

[LorenB]

I am working in IT and do not have a degree in anything yet.  The degree is pretty much a must to go any where. They kind of look at you like a nobody with out it.
BTW, I have just started schooling this fall to get a degree in IT.

vtbuckslayer,

I've known lots of people who have gone to college after working in the "real world" for a while.  I've NEVER heard anyone say that they regretted getting their college degree. 

Loren

[LorenB]

I wonder why they call it liberal arts education rather than conservative arts education?

Cedarman,

They call it "liberal arts" because all the courses are taught by liberals.  

Loren

[LorenB]

I can imagine the conflict in the woods on the job between the seasoned logger and the degree-holding, greenhorn forester. In fact, I've just now for the first time realized the inevitability of me experiencing this once I graduate and begin the School of the Real World. 

Brandon,

No, they don't teach this in class.  I remember being an Ensign or Lt(jg) (junior officer) in the Navy and dealing with CPO's (Chief Petty Officers) who were way above me in experience and knowledge, but junior to me in rank. 

Treat those who work for you with the respect due them for their experience.  Listen to their advice.  Note that their comments to you should come in the form of advice, not a command.  After you have processed all the information you have, make your decision and inform them of what you want done.  It may or may not be smart to tell your "CPO's" (team leaders/middle managers) why you decided to go with a certain action.  This will be more of an issue if you have decided not to take their advice.  You'll have to read the personalities involved to know whether or not they will try to undermine the operation because it wasn't what they recommended. 

As a general rule, it's not a good idea to tell them HOW you want it done.  They probably know how to do it better than you do anyway. 

Keep your eyes and ears open and ask a lot of questions such as, "Chief, why are you having the troops do it that way?"  You'll learn a lot.   After you get a few years experience, your education will mesh with the on-the-job training and you'll gain the respect of your "juniors".  Once you have accomplished that, you'll have a much easier time getting them to accept your methods without explanation. 

The first few years are tough in this regard.  Keep in mind that you'll get through it and it gets easier as time goes on. 

Best of luck.
Loren

[PAFaller]

I think the bottom line is making up your mind shortly and deciding what you really want to do. I am 25 and have a four year degree in Forest Management from the University of New Hampshire. That being said I knew my sophomore year I liked slinging a chainsaw better than I liked doing consulting work, working for a sawmill, or any of the research forestry stuff. Thats just me, I have friends in all the jobs mentioned and they love it, but its not my cup of tea. Now I dont regret my degree and it as helped me buy timber, but if I was to do it again I may have changed my focus a bit. Most bigger colleges have a business school, and being self employed I would have looked into more of those classes, and made use of the tuition money on something that would help me more in the long run.  If you are sure or your career path dont be afraid to look at things outside of the norm. And as was said a bunch of times in other replies dont go about your job after college with an ego, because most loggers dont like that sort of thing. At 25 I have already been in a few heated conversations with book smart foresters who assumed I was a dumb logger and didnt so much like a 'kid' putting them in their place, but that is where the education and on the ground experience helps. Whatever you choose though, take advantage of all you can in school, because the real world isnt nearly as much fun as college, that I know from experience. Cheers and good luck!

[Cedarman]

LorenB, when were you at Purdue?  I was there from 65 to 69.

[vtbuckslayer]

PAfaller,
 i agree i would just assume being in the woods and dropping trees as well.  But with todays markets and prices its just to unstaible to hope in the real world and expect to make a good living right off the bat.  I figured with even a little bit of schooling it would give me a bigger list of jobs to chose from.  My plans are to run my own consulting business and own my own crew to do all the cutting and harvesting on the lands i take care off.  Sometimes the fun jobs arent always the ones that pay the bills. 
 

[snowman]

In the good ole clearcut days, (I had a boat once I named clearcut, got me lots of dirty looks) , anyway in clearcuts you just fell the tree towards the landing. In these select cuts we do now I can't imagine how you'd fall timber without knowing where the skid trail is or will be. As a rule I fall the skidtrails 1st, skid them, then fall my timber with great care to put the tree where it will do the least damage as it's pulled out. As for slash piles sterilizing the soil, yes that's the accepted theory but in my experience these burn spots come in good with larch and ponderosa pine. Old compacted skid trails, another bugaboo, also in my experience seem to regen just great. Around here you can get around better by walking to one side of old skid trails because they are so thick with trees. As for the college thing, foresters are great at what they know, diseases, bugs, funguses etc. plus they know the latin names for all that stuff , but as a rule, college teaches them just enough about logging to actually think they know how to log, a real pain in the arse. Give a college forester 10 years or so in the real world, then he's ok despite the college not because of it.

[vtbuckslayer]

Its funny that you bring up clear cuts.  dad, gramps and i( three of five consecutive generations of loggers)  were discussing the current issue with big dear high in our mountainous areas since the national forests took over.  Now there is no cutting and no longer any big dear hiding in the deep backwoods they are all in the valleys around the houses and gettin shot before they can grow to a respectable size.  The national forests think they are doing great things by leaving everything wild.  But there is no onderstory for food.  i am yet to see a deer 80 feet in the air chewing on limbs of mature trees.  Second of all the moose use to have beautiful habitat with the logging going on.  Now they have nothing use to have skid trails they could wander and browse and now its even becoming hard for them.  Time for someone to wake up in the government and realize that logging dont properly and under the proper supervision is needed.  Otherwise they car and moose run ins are going to continue since they are venturing into populated areas looking for food.  Just hard to understand the ignorance of some people. 

[LorenB]

LorenB, when were you at Purdue?  I was there from 65 to 69.

Cedarman,

Interestingly enough, I was there from 1965 to January 1970.  I graduated one semester late.  While I was there I did two things that you might have heard about.  One was that I was on the Purdue Drill Team.  The other was that a group of us cut classes for about three days prior to the IU/Purdue game and went to IU to steal John Purdue. 

They laid an effigy of John Purdue out in their Memorial Union while Purdue laid out an effigy of Miss Indiana.  We would each try to steal the other school's effigy.  We had only limited success.  We managed to get the shirt (about the only part of the body besides the head), while they managed to protect the papier mache head.  We still took it (the shirt) to the pep rally before the IU game. 

Loren

[Ron Wenrich]

For what its worth:

Nov, 2008 unemployment was at 6.7%.  For those with less than a high school diploma, that rate was 10.8%.  For high school grads, 6.8%.  For those with some college, 5.5%.  For those with at least a bachelors degree, 3.1%.

It doesn't make you immune to unemployment, but it sure seems to help.