Norway Pine??

[Maineloggerkid]

I have a 20 acre field that is  pretty good ground( not reall rocky, but not rock free either), on a gentle slope, and has good drainage.

I was talking to someone taday that said I should plant it to Norway Pine. My question is, how long does it take for Red (norway) Pine to mature to harvesting size. A lot of people sell tem around here for Telephone poles( big money). I was told that at the rate they grow around here, they could be harvested aroun the time I am 40 ( I am 18 now). That seems kinda short to me, but maybe.

Could someone tell me if it sounds like a good idea. If they could be harvested before I am too old, I like the idea of having a nest egg in my backyard.

[cheyenne]

 Very smart thinking for someone at 18. Keep it up & good luck with your plans....Cheyenne

[Clark]

If you're on a good site you could do the first thinning by the time you're 40.  Telephone poles?  Not a chance.  When they go through a chunk of ground to buy telephone poles they become really picky really fast.  What may look like an acceptable pole to you will often have one or more small defects that they won't accept.

All that to say yes, you can grow norway pine for poles but I think you're looking at a minimum of 45 years of good management.  You'll have to keep 'em tight and time thinnings correctly but you'll get there.

Clark

[Ron Scott]

Ditto! to the above.

Depending upon soil and site conditions a commercial average may be 35 years for the first thinning for pulpwood and landscape materials, 50 years, second thinning again for pulpwood, posts, and small poles, 75 years poles and small sawtimber, and 100-120 years again for poles and small and mediurm sawtimber, and 150 years for final harvest of large sawtimber.

Then start over with the natural regenerated site or plant site again to red pine.

Study up some on red pine management and go for it.http://www.ncrs.fs.fed.us/fmg/rp/index.html

[Maineloggerkid]

Thanks for the information. I really don't know that much about norway pine because I haven't delt with it very much, so I figured I bring it to the table here.

[John_valmet]

is norway pine the same as norway spruce? sorry im from the UK i was just wondering if it is the same thing just with a diferent name. the mains species of timber we harvest here are (best selling timber) Sitka spruce, Norway Spruce, Scotch pine. Sitka spruce is a quick growin tree 30 to 40 years till it is clear felled it can grow 1.5m a year in good conditions. norway spruce grows about 1 meter a year generally reaching only 35-40 meters tall. scotch pine takes a bit longer as far as i know any way. plus it is horrible stuff bent and not great quality.(well atleast every tree ive seen was like that)

[Ron Scott]

No, they are different species. Norway Pine is our red pine,a popular commercial species here and Norway Spruce is a spuce often used here more so for Christmas trees, yard landscaping, windbreaks , wildlife cover etc. due to its form and texture.

[John_valmet]

do you harvest norway spruce aswell or not? i find that we get very straight logs from it and they always seem heavier too.

[Ron Scott]

We don't harvest much if any Norway Spruce here in Lower Michigan. There just isn't much of a market for any spruce in this area.

[John_valmet]

thats cool. To be fair Ron i dont know much about forestry in the states only what ive seen on that tv program Axmen. Which looks a bit dramatised if you know what i mean. i have worked with a skyline gang so i know all about that line of work. I didnt think there was much harvester and forwarder work out there.
On a different note my youngest brother who is 16 wants to move over to New hampshire when he is 19 not sure where abouts though.

[stumper]

We harvest norway spruce here in Maine.  Good tree but every stand I have been in has a very tight crown so it can be tough felling.  They do suffer from pine weavel damage like a white pine does so some plantation have some very poor stock.

[SwampDonkey]

Haven't planted it long enough here to harvest Norway spruce yet. We do have natural red pine though and 100's of acres of red pine plantations around here on abandoned farmland. As Ron says, expect close to 80 years for a good sized telephone pole. 35 year old pine here has just barely begun to self thin it's lower limbs. I know of 50 year old red pine that has never been tended and it's too thick and skinny to ever be any good even if it's thinned now. Some people around here think doing nothing is going to produce perfect trees. 

[Mooseherder]

I don't know how old these are but if I would have to make an uneducated guess, it would be around 25-30 years old.  I'll have to cut one down to find out.  These have been tended to by the previous owner. I'm grateful for that.
I hope to get some lumber out of some in the future.  There is a guy a couple miles up the road that is building a Log Cabin with Red Pine and is also trying to market some more into that Industry because he has plenty of them.  He had Stacks of them Peeled and Drying for his first Cabin.   I'll stop in next summer for pics.  These border our Eastern side along route 1.

 

[SwampDonkey]

Just count the whorls, plus the top, no need to cut one. Red pine don't get internodal shoots like spruce and fir, so it's easy to age by the whorls.

Looking good, without scale to go by, I'd say your in the ball park. Looks like the owner trimmed up the limbs. That is helpful in red pine, not so good for fir and spruce because it usually introduces rot. Looks like he kept the saw out of the bark during trimming.

[Mooseherder]

Oh, it won't be cut until there is a need for Red Pine and a mill that is assembled.
That will be a while.

[SwampDonkey]

Your young yet. 

[Clark]

Just count the whorls, plus the top, no need to cut one. Red pine don't get internodal shoots like spruce and fir, so it's easy to age by the whorls...

Count the whorls from DBH up to the top, add 8 and you'll be within 1 or 2 years of actual age, makes trying to decipher those lower reaches much more manageable. 

Clark

[Black_Bear]

I'd do some sensitivity analysis before you plant. How much will the planting cost you, and what other alternatives do you have for the money? What will be your rate of return in 30 years? 40 years? 80 years?   

Pole stock is hard to find in the northeast, as someone mentioned earlier, the companies buying the stock tend to be finicky, but if you check the magazines, like Northern Logger, there are always companies advertising to buy your red pine.

Planting trees is cost intensive and the returns are not generally realized for at least 40-50 years in the slow growing northeast. Also, consider precommercial thinning, which is often another capital intensive project incorporated 20-40 years into the rotation. The northeast is blessed because regeneration tends to occur naturally, at little or no cost to the landowner, but rotations are generally longer, often exceeding 80 years. There have been many studies done with short rotation aspen (popple), especially in the upper midwest states (Minnesota comes to mind). Might want to look into these studies for yield and return. After all, aspen tends to grow like a weed in Maine after a significant disturbance, i.e. clearcut. 

[Maineloggerkid]

Good points, Black Bear.

Ya, at the rate poplar grows up here, I would almost be better of to plant the field to that.

[SwampDonkey]

Well, there would be a sizeable crop every 40 years at least. Get some large tooth and it grows faster then quaking.

[Maineloggerkid]

If proplerly spaced, do you think that it would be wise, given market changes and such??

[SwampDonkey]

I can't see the aspen market disappearing. I'd be more worried about browse and girdling by the wildlife. 

[Maineloggerkid]

I have a little protection plan against such intruders.

 30-06 and a freezer.

[cheyenne]

What time's din din....Cheyenne

[Maineloggerkid]

whenever you heat up the griddle.

[SwampDonkey]

My native 'cousins' were here this Thursday to harvest a calf moose in the field.  I told them to harvest all they want. 

[cheyenne]

Have you considered Christmas trees. Fast growing, less work & good money as I understand it. I have a friend who grows them & he says his bankers love it because there is no fluxuation in the market it only goes higher......Cheyenne

[Maineloggerkid]

Christmas trees suck... lots of work trimming them. I trimmed trees one summer-- one summer only. Thats the other problem , there is a christmas tree farm that is only 10 miles away that has been established for 30 years.

 Did you no that you can get a really serious cut from those tree trimming knifes???

[cheyenne]

Is that like getting knocked on my butt when the log flew out of the splitter today....Cheyenne

[Maineloggerkid]

probably similiar.

[SwampDonkey]

Christmas trees are not so rosy as some might suggest. And it's a hell of a lot of work. The markets are always in fluctuation. Doesn't matter about price, when you can't sell the volume you have ready. This year is a very bad year for Christmas tree growers. The Maritimes and Quebec are about the only provinces that export Christmas trees. Provinces west of there import most of their trees. I've seen a lot of dreamers here that planted the trees and that was the end of it. Some of them at the time when the government was giving out trees and lending the planters worked up a scheme to get reforestation done for free. The regular silviculture program had a cost. Always some one to figure a way around the system, even when it was only going to cost 10% of the total.

[Ranger_School09]

As per earlier conversations, as long as the site has the capacity I would believe that norway spruce would reach harvestable porportions but not in the pole size in girth. It is a fast growing species as previously mentioned, usally topping out at a metre/year. I know irving has done some plantation experiments with it, the only problem that with it growing so fast it is not as structural sound as a slower growing species such as red or white spruce. It also has a much higher water content, that is associated with its fast growing characteristics.. It all depends on what your goals are for this site. Poplar grows quick but is almost soley limited to pulp although some people find it acceptable for lumber in a none load bearing use. Eastern red pine (pinus resinosa) which is also used considerably for poles is a moderate fast grower on a good site, and with the conditions described your probably looking at a nice loam or sand based soil...Again it all depends no what you want or are looking for, hope this helps