thinning out neglected land and need some general advice...

[Piston]

I need some help here....I'm not sure how much help I can get because unfortunately I don't have too many specifics to ask.  My grandfather owns 50 acres of land in central NH that is all wooded and was logged at some point in the late '60's to early '70's.  the trees or land has really never been touched since.  I am planning on going up there to start thinning it out a bit as well as opening up and reclaiming a few small fields.  If I remember right from hiking around the land, most of the trees seem to be EWP and a mix of some hardwoods down near the swampy area.  The land is moderately sloping in some areas and starts high and dry then slopes to low and wet, abutting a stream.  The woods are pretty thick and as I (ever so slowly) start learning about how important it is for healthy tree growth to thin out every once in a while I am trying to learn what or how much I should thin out. 
my father has just recently bought a small (30hp) tractor for his land and we are planning on bringing that up to help mow some of the overgrown fields.
my father is definately a "get as much done ASAP" kind of guy, and I'm worried that we'll go up there and end up cutting down more than we should have, or the wrong kind of trees or something. 
So is there some kind of general rule of thumb as far as healthy spacing between trees (softwoods vs. hardwoods) or as far as underbrush?  In other words is there any harm in mowing down all the small saplings we see and doing a general thinning of the area?  As I am up there I will be taking a lot of pics of different trees and identifying them as well as trying to get a gist of how much of each type is on the land.  We will only be up there for about 4 days so of we will obviously only be able to thin out a small percentage of the 50 acres.  Also what are some things that we should definately avoid doing?  I know someone who doesn't know much about tree lot management could do some serious damage in a short amount of time with a chainsaw. 
I plan on having a forester come up and help me out with this in the future, but right now my grandfather wants us to just thin out the area around his house, so if worse comes to worse and I end up screwing it up, i'll just turn those few acres into fields and use them for gardening.  I'm planning on eventually moving up to this property over the next 5-10 yrs and don't want to do more harm than good. 
Sorry for the rookie questions but I am certainly a rookie at this, I have done some searching in the forum for these things and found good info. I will continue to look back at old posts while i await some responses. 
Thanks guys.

the more i look at this website and the the more i search through the different topics, the more overwhelmed i get at how much i have to learn!  but having fun doing it...

[Banjo picker]

Hello, if your land hasn't had much on anything done to it in over thirty years.....you may not be doing a lot of mowing with a small tractor....Hopefully they didn't just leave the rough stuff at that time.....You should have some nice timber.......keep us informed...Tim

[Tom]

You still need to talk to a Forester.  I would suggest that you call or go to the County Agent and ask for the County Forester to walk the property with you and explain what you have.  If you have a good one, he will look forward to getting out of the office.

Mowing the yard is a lot different than arbitrarily mowing trees or cutting trees just because you think they are too close to one another.  Don't be in a great hurry unless your ultimate plans are to pave the place.

A Forester later isn't going to be as much help as some expert advice today.  It's going to take someone who can be there and see it.

[Sprucegum]

Make a point of cleaning up after every tree you cut down, whether it be sawlog or firewood or just a pile of brush. Not only does it look neater when you quit - it really helps to slow down the chainsaw mania    

In 4 days you will not do any serious damage to 50 acres as long as you look carefully at each big one before you cut. IE look for damage, disease, etc.

Yes, we do like pictures  

[Ron Scott]

As stated above. Have a forester look at the property and seek their advice before you do much of any cutting.

[WDH]

Thinning a 50 acre forest is not really a job that you can do yourself because you do not have the equipment to do it with.  You will never get much done by hand.  Some of what you thin may have commercial value and contribute to the cost or even pay for the thinning.  You need a plan that includes the species and amount of timber on the property as a starting point.  Getting professional help will be worth it. 

[thecfarm]

What do you plan on doing with all of the trees you cut down? I would think there would be some good size trees in 30 years of growing. Like the size that you could not drove over with a tractor to bush hog them.I am claiming back some of the fields around here. But I'm cutting just about everything.Different than what you want to do.I have sent a few loads of hardwood pulp to the mill.Trouble with that is they went it fresh,not sitting around for 2-3 months.Get some help with what you want to do and you will be happy for years to come.

[Phorester]

Reading this from a Forester standpoint....., if you had not been to a doctor for 30 years, and then decided to do some things to improve your health, would you just look around the internet and then start in on your body without first having a doctor do an exam? 

Spend the 4 days you have with a Forester.  At least part of them.  You can get general advice and info here, but you need a Forester on the ground in your woods to give you the specific guidance you need.  Every forest ownership is different, even properties right next to each other.  If it's been 30 years since anything has been done, waiting a few more days or months for professional advice won't hurt a thing and will be time well spent.

[SwampDonkey]

It also depends on how you define 'harvested' or 'logged', and the local climate, species, soil and growing conditions (density, shade, crown space). If it was more of a clear cut than the hardwood won't be very big. I have 35 year old hardwood and spruce trees around the house that are mostly under 10 inches, not too big at all. Now large toothed aspen could easily be 16 inches in that time.

The longer trees grow dense, the weaker the stems get with height. Cut too much out and you get hardwood tops touching the ground in a wet fall snow. Look at your dominant trees growing (the ones that stand above the others and have bigger diameters and wide spreading crowns) and estimate the height and measure the diameters for different species to see what the relationship of height vs diameter exists for a tree to be able to stand when competition is reduced. Don't pick an open grown (pasture grown) one for this, as they will put more diameter on than forest grown trees. Anything over 30 feet is to be treated with caution when spacing them out. Your generally only going to release crowns of your best specimens. No need of spacing junk, if it has no potential.

I do thinning up here on woodlots, but it's 'pre-commercial' thinning before the pole wood stage. Usually after 12 years it's too tall for me to cut and get down. Yes, even a 12 year old white spruce stand is hard going with all the thick inter twined branches, it becomes a ad hoc pruning job.  Also, keep in mind that one thinning is not enough. It doesn't take long for the crowns to fill in again and often require another spacing in 10 years depending on the spacing in the first round.

Take everyone's advice hear and have a forester pay you a visit on the property and maybe develop a plan. Thinning is a lot of hard work. Hopefully, you can market some of the thinned out residue or there may be a state program to assist in the work. I can tell you thinning with a chain saw in pole wood is not very productive, so you have to target and release your 'milkers'.

We can't manage your woods from a keyboard.

[John Mc]

Don't be in a rush. Don't think of the forest in terms of what needs to get done today, think of the long term. For New England hardwoods, their timescale is not in years, or even decades, it's generations and even centuries (which is not to say you won't be in there doing things in the mean time). Take the time to think things out, with expert help. What you do now can have long term repercussions.

You might want to read up a bit or talk to a forester about "Crop Tree Management". That's something easy to do on as small or as large a scale as you want. Starting off with that, rather than a large-scale thinning, allows you to focus on a few target "keeper" trees. If you mess up, you've only affected one small corner of your land. Save the thinning until after you've gotten some advice from a Forester

[Piston]

Okay you all have excellent points, I can definately do more damage than good by not knowing what I'm doing, and I certainly don't know what I am doing!  So I have taken your advice and just sent off this email to my County Forester...

Dear Sir,
I have been slowly learning about the importance of woodlot management and having a plan for that management.  It seems the more I learn, the more I realize I don't have any idea about how to manage a woodlot!  My grandfather lives in Alton where he owns 50 acres of woodlands, it was logged at some point in the early '70's (I am still trying to find out the year)  and it really hasn't been touched since then.  Needless to say it would probably benifit highly from some knowledgable thinning.   I am hoping over the next few years to get a good start at improving the land since I hope to someday build a home or cabin on the land.  I was originally planning on walking the land, looking at and inventorying the various types and sizes of trees, and then thinning between them to give them more "room" as well as taking out any rotted or diseased trees for firewood.  I have learned a great amount from simply reading various websites including www.forestryforum.com and from it, I have learned that my original plan of "thinning" is anything but a good idea.  The members of that website have convinced me that I need a professional to come take a look at the land and walk it with me to help me identify what and where I should be thinning, and to what extent, so I avoid doing more harm than good.  This is the reason I am contacting you.
    I am curious as to how I could have someone come to the land to help develop some kind of management plan for the land?  I have checked the UNH Extension website and from it I have gathered that I have two choices, either a forester can come out to the land and give me a complete timber analysis as well as the value of the timber and even help me sell it, or I could have a County Forester come and help me with a management plan for no fee?  I (nor the rest of the family) am interested in having the land logged or selling the timber, so I don't believe we need the extensive work of a hired forester?  We are mostly concerned with developing a healthy forest, reclaiming some old blueberry fields, and cutting firewood for our own use.  I am also interested in someday milling some of the larger trees into useable lumber if I someday purchase a small sawmill.
Thank you for any and all information you can provide,

I will wait until I hear from him and then begin to get a plan going, I'm glad I wasn't too headstrong in thinking I knew what I was doing and thanks to you guys for pointing out the importance of this.  I realize it would be a pretty idiotic and uneducated thing to do to just go out in the woods and start cutting random trees thinking I knew what I was doing.  Remind me to come back here in about 10 yrs and post another "thankyou" when I'm enjoying a nice healthy growing piece of land. 

My father has 120 acres not far from this land I'm speaking of, thanks to you guys I also convinced him to seek the forester route, so he would also like to give you a big thanks as well....

[Tom]

10 years!?!?!

Don't you dare!

We want to know what you do and how it turns out.  It'll help others in that same fix.    You can't go away for 10 years.   Least not unless a judge sends you to the big house.  Stay here and keep us interested souls informed. 

[Phorester]

Good for you Piston. You're now headed down the right road.  As Tom says, keep us in the loop.  Others can learn from your experiences.

[crtreedude]

How to think a bit like a forester - this is not to say you don't need one, you should go the route everyone is saying, but it helps as well to learn to look with their eyes. I am not a forester, but I own plantations and work with them daily. Being in the tropics, everything grows fast, really fast - so does your learning cycle because you are dealing with a compressed schedule.

What you are looking for is a balance between carrying capacity and competion from my point of view. Trees will only grow so fast based on the ground. The distance between each tree when planted really depends on the soil and conditions. This is carrying capacity.

To grow wood instead of Christmas trees, you want competition, if your goal is to produce wood. The trees in your lawn have lots of branches, which is what the tree does to take advantage of the sunlight that is available. This generally will produce very knotty wood, not what you want. So, you want the trees to crowd each other to compete.

The trick is balancing this. Too many trees, and they can turn into noodle trees, very tall, with very little diameter. Too few, bushes.

Different sections of your land will require different treatment. It isn't one size fits all. But, if you keep these things in mind, it should help.

But you still need a forestry engineer - and remember, I don't know northern forest!

Oh, and welcome! Your advantage is your trees grow slow enough that you have enough time to absorb all the good knowledge here before the next time you need advice! So, stick around. 

[Piston]

10 years!?!?!

Don't you dare!
   You can't go away for 10 years.   

   no no no, i guess i said that wrong, i meant that in 10 yrs when i look back at a nice healthy forest, i'll repost a nice thankyou to all you guys.. 
I can't go anywhere if i wanted to, over the last year i have officially become addicted to not only this forum, but the way of life it portrays. 
up until now, i have mostly been spending all my work time....errr....free time looking at the sawmilling, timberframing, and chainsawing sections of the forum.  i just started searching through the numerous topics in the forestry and logging section just a few days ago. 
this site has a domino effect, I originally became interested in FF because i had an interest in sawmills, then the more i learned about that the more i realized i needed to learn more about cutting the trees before i could mill them, so then on to the chainsaw thread (which by the way, has inspired me to get my MS361) then since i'm interested in someday milling, i better do something with the wood, now onto the timberframing section, which then inspired me to read 3 books on timberframing in the last couple months....now im thinking well i can't just go out and cut trees without knowing what to cut.....so off to the forestry and logging section...
you guys aren't making my free time too free although i am having a blast!  I must say its a good thing i still have a lot of years ahead of me (god willing) because I sure need the time if i'm gonna do a tenth of the things i wanna do now!

[Piston]

What you are looking for is a balance between carrying capacity and competion from my point of view. Trees will only grow so fast based on the ground. The distance between each tree when planted really depends on the soil and conditions. This is carrying capacity.

To grow wood instead of Christmas trees, you want competition, if your goal is to produce wood. The trees in your lawn have lots of branches, which is what the tree does to take advantage of the sunlight that is available. This generally will produce very knotty wood, not what you want. So, you want the trees to crowd each other to compete.

The trick is balancing this. Too many trees, and they can turn into noodle trees, very tall, with very little diameter. Too few, bushes.

Different sections of your land will require different treatment. It isn't one size fits all. But, if you keep these things in mind, it should help.

crtreedude,
A huge thankyou for some wisdom, I know I still need a forester but thanks for "shedding some light on the subject" I will take any and all advice, wisdom, tips, or tricks I can from all of you.  Also, if you guys remember any particular posts that are similar to what I'm looking for, whether it be the forest education, specifics on New England type trees, or anything like that, please feel free to post some links....I'm not afraid to put my time in reading whatever I can.

[thecfarm]

That is what the FF is here for.I looked for years before buying my sawmill.Takes me a while to part with my hard earned money.

[crtreedude]

That is what the FF is here for.I looked for years before buying my sawmill.Takes me a while to part with my hard earned money.

Yep, exactly. Knowledge is not earned overnight, and it is a lot less painful to read it here, than experience it out there.. if you know what I mean.

I can honestly say we wouldn't be where we are if it wasn't for FF. 

[Piston]

I've been back and forth with the forester a couple times, he said he can come up and give me some general ideas and options and help me out by pointing some things out on the property, but he can't give me a detailed management plan or anything that a consulting forester can provide.  thats fine by me so i'm meeting him there on the 22nd of this month.  i'll learn as much as I can from him, and also get some recommendations for other foresters.  then after we have a little bit of a clue after talking with him, we are gonna hire a consulting forester to draw something up for us.  needless to say Im pretty excited about walking the land with a forester and i'll be happy to put some money into the local econemy afterwords, I know its well worth the money. 

If anyone knows an experienced forester in the central NH area, please feel free to PM me, im not sure if we can post those kinds of things...

thanks again gents!

[Tom]

I'm sure glad you have it all coming together.  You have to start somewhere and the beginning is as good a place as any.

I guess some state's county foresters are limited more than in other states.  Still, if you can get a walk out of it, you are money ahead. Be sure to take refreshments and anything you can think of that will help to keep him there a while.  Take some pictures of him on your property and post them here.  Let us know what he says.  From experience, it would behoove you to take a notebook and some pencils.  If he is like most of the foresters I know, you will be flooded with information.

Yes, consulting foresters can be posted here if it is their business addresses.  If in doubt we still have the PrivateMessaging system.  You may get a post here from Foresters who have access to a list.

good Luck!

[John Mc]

A lot of the county Foresters I've run into here in Vermont are reluctant to recommend specific consulting foresters. They are concerned that they would appear to be abusing their positions to steer business to their friends. Likewise, if they said "that guy stinks", they could open themselves up for some hassles or legal trouble from the forester in question.

One way around this: ask them for names of people or organizations who have some experience in your area, and who might be able to make a recommendation. For example: "Can you put me in touch with a landowner in my area who recently had some work done that you/they thought was well done, so I can speak to them about their experience?".

One organization that may be a good resource is New Hampshire Coverts (or call 603-862-2166). They are focused mainly on educating landowners on wildlife habitat issues, and how wildlife habitat management can be integrated into a plan managing for timber, recreation or other uses. The various members have a lot of different experiences, and can share information with you about Foresters they've worked with in your area. They sponsor a number of useful workshops on forest management issues. This is not just a group of tree-huggers. Most are involved with or interested in working forests.

I'm heavily involved in Vermont Coverts, a similar organization here in Vermont. I've found it a great resource over the years, and an interesting gathering of people with various views and experiences.

John Mc

[Splinter]

Piston what town you in?

[Piston]

John Mc
thanks for the idea, also i'll check that website out now and see where it leads me.

Splinter, i am in Alton...(well i live in MA but my grandfather is in alton)

[Ron Scott]

The Consevation District Foresters and DNR Service Foresters here don't recommend any specific consultant foresters, but do hand out a list of consulting foresters in the area for landowners to check out and select from.

[Phorester]

The DOF does the same in Virginia.

[BaldBob]

I recommend you go to the Association of Consulting Foresters website:  http://www.acf-foresters.org  and click on the "Find a Forester" box. then click on NH in the pull down menu.

[John Mc]

All of the sources mentioned for getting a list of foresters in your area are a good place to start. But remember, once you have the list in your hand, that's just the start. In some states, it doesn't take much of anything to get included on a list of foresters. You'll still need to check them out, or ask around from other landowners to find out who the good ones are.

Remember, there is a lot to forestry, and not everyone is an expert in all aspects. If you think about what your long-term goals are, hopefully you can find a forester with the skills and interests to match. At the very least, having some idea of what your goals are gives you something specific to ask about when you are investigating their backgrounds.

John Mc

[Banjo picker]

Remember, there is a lot to forestry, and not everyone is an expert in all aspects.                                    That is a fact John, I went to talk with our county forestrer...mainly to get a list of log suppliers in the area....and in our concersation I told him I was putting in a bandsaw mill in the area.....He told me he had never seen one , and would sure like to see it....I would think a forester would have to get more field exp...than that...no harm ment to the residents here....Tim