Black birch or white pine?

[Splinter]

Doing some thinning and came on a stand of WP and BB. est age is 30 years. The BB are really skinny, well pruned and starting to shade out the WP.
What would you favor? WP are good form but are losing the race starting to get that wispy look. site is upland & rocky. May be droughty by the look of it.

I started by favoring the WP but began to wonder as I went along.

southern nh location.

Thanks!

[Sprucegum]

  I don't know nothin' bout where you are 

Around here if it was dry & rocky the birch would die young and the pine would take over whether you wanted it to or not
That's from observing white (paper) birch and jack pine 

[SwampDonkey]

Be careful with that tall skinny birch if your in an 'ice belt'. They really should have been thinned out at age 12-15. They get too week stemmed after 30 years that you have to be careful and just release the stockier ones and forget about actually spacing every square inch. More like a crop tree release. Maybe that is what you are doing. Thinning to me is non commercial spacing before pole size. As far as the pine, just save the dominant trees of quality. There is a 60 year old field on a parcel a relative just sold and the aspen and birch had over topped the pine so long that it's beyond help. Pretty poor stuff.

[Splinter]

Thanks SD
Sorry for confusing terms, It's intended as a crop tree release. Just trying to figure if I should have birch or pine crop trees in there. Thanks for pointing that out, I have probably been releasing too many crop trees in a dense stand like that.
Not in an ice belt, but it can happen here.

Poked in there again today and the older hardwoods nearby (mostly oak beach red maple) look a little off, like they have had a rough time of it. None of the oaks have the red rifts in the bark that indicate they are "super growers" like I have elsewhere. Older pines look pretty good. Is that telling me about the site or just about past logging practices?

[SwampDonkey]

As I said, I would save some of the best pines.

I've been to NH and white pines mixed into the oaks and other hardwoods looks real pleasing to the eye. Also, helps pine a bit to be a little shaded up to pole stage to deter the weevil from killing the tops of the pine. We call them cabbage pine up here, with about 6 leaders when the previous whorl turns upward. Weevils are bad up here on old fields especially. I have some white pine I stuck into my plantations after the spruce where 2-3 meters taller so they would get shade. The dang pine still grow fast and are now growing over three feet a year after being planted 6 years. They'll out grow the spruce, but yet some spruce are growing more than 2 feet a year on my best areas. 

This being moose season and the last day is today, I hope some get thinned out around here. They use pine as a scratching post. Saw one yesterday in a field. Stood there like a horse, an easy shot. Not a whole lot of sport or expertise in shooting something so stupid.   

[Splinter]

Crop tree release with a bias towards pine crop trees it is. 
Thanks for the input.
We used to have moose come by but not as much anymore, was told they like young growth, and it seems to be true. They like to chew on red maple bark down this way.

20' apart for pine crop trees(100/acre), and 30' apart(45/acre) for hardwood crop trees sound about right?

[SwampDonkey]

We used to have moose come by but not as much anymore, was told they like young growth, and it seems to be true. They like to chew on red maple bark down this way.

Here to, they ruined a little stand I thinned out.

20' apart for pine crop trees(100/acre), and 30' apart(45/acre) for hardwood crop trees sound about right?

50-70 for the hardwood, closer to 70 is more comfortable for me personally up this far north. I wouldn't get hung up on a set spacing. I'd have crown release on at least 3 sides of the crop trees in mind with a release cutting. What I do is flag an acre of crop trees once in awhile to fit within the 50-70 /acre so you can gauge what your doing, your mind's eye so to speak. Just take a compass and pace off 65 steps on each side forming a square by compass, flag as you pace the perimeter. I'd do 2 or 3 of these type plots every 10 acres. It's just as easy to leave too many as not enough. But far better to leave more, because you can't stand'm back up.

[SwampDonkey]

With my previous comment in mind, I guess it's your call on the percentages. But, the tree quality will dictate the final outcome I guess. I see your favoring pine. If you can get 145 crop trees released per acre of good quality, your site will be quite good. I guess I wasn't including the pine in my total crop tree figure. Up here, it's sometimes hard to find 70 decent hardwood crop trees per acre, 90 would be exceptional. Get a lot of forking and crooks from snow and wildlife damage.

[woodmills1]

I would think you can make some money now off of the black birch as firewood.  Then as the pine grows you should get some saw logs from them.  Even the straight knotted pines sell here.

I am in southern NH outside nashua and can provide you with a market for almost any straight pine


If you went the other way, the only real market for the pine thinnings is chips, though that is a strong market here right now as long as you have a buyer.  The future of the released birch would not be so great.  Much of the black birch I have is growing on rocky ground and it doest produce quality logs.  Pallet hardwood is low $ value here now, It may change but not likely

[Ron Scott]

Manage for stand diversity with the "best tree in place".

[Splinter]

Manage for stand diversity with the "best tree in place".

That sums it up. Now if I could just figger out what's best .

Think I have a handle on it.... for now.
Thanks for the help all.

[SwampDonkey]

Tree form, crown size, defect, species preference. Just because it's green doesn't make it a 'better' future crop tree, but it's a good start. 

[Splinter]

Got some more areas with suppressed white pine under ratty hardwoods.
Wish I had the time and knowledge 10 years ago to do some of what I am doing now.

So, what are the indicators that white pine will not respond to release? Trying to avoid a total do-over in this area.

Thanks!

[SwampDonkey]

Bark will get ruff and fissured above the stump for 5 feet or more, should see much of that in a young tree. Less than 50 % crown and very narrow. Might have some pitch coming out the trunk or lower limbs from rust infections. Not all pitch is infection, but could also be insect or sap sucker. Dead leaders from weevils.