This Oughta Get Yer Attention

[Fla._Deadheader]

  The "Big 3" want 50 BILLION.
 Link

[Kevin_H.]

What do we get for our 50 billion, is the federal gov. gonna set standards that these hybrids and electric cars have to be on the market in a certain amount of time? or is the auto makers gonna come back in 3 years and say they just could not do it and we get nothing for our money.

it sounds like they are gonna get the 25 no matter what.

[Fla._Deadheader]

 Down here, you could buy Chevy Luv's, with Isuzu Diesel engine's in 'em, YEARS ago. I have one of the engines, now.

  Chevy-Ford- Toyota- Mercedes-Nissan- many other brands, ALL have Diesels in 'em, here. Diesels in smaller vehicles, dominate the roads, here. Shoot all the EPA people, and sell diesels in the states, now that demand is up for them. Every Bio Forum I go on, is BEGGING for small Diesels Same with Ethanol power. I'm not a big fan of Ethanol, except for LOCALIZED Production. Trucking fuel all over the country is just plain stoopid.

  Remember when Iacocca brought Chrysler back from Bankruptcy   That was a LOAN, IF I remember correctly.

  If the Big 3 can't make it on their own, whose fault is THAT They sell what makes them BIG single Profits, not mass profits  

  I don't care what anybody says. It doesn't take $25,000.00 to build a sensible vehicle. Factory workers were never meant to have 2 houses, 3 cars, and 4 weeks vacation a year   It's also hardly skilled labor to build the vehicles. 

  The US won't even ALLOW small Diesels to be brought into the states for sale

[Ron Wenrich]

But, this is a loan over 3 years and is not a bailout.  Big difference.  With a loan, we should get paid back.  I would make a stipulation that the loan gets paid back before there are officer bonuses or any accelerated dividends.  Besides, this is an increase of from $25 billion that they just got to $50 billion.  Not an additional $50 billion.

I don't think it is in the financial interests of the US to have one of the Big 3 go belly up. 

I have a small diesel in my tractor and we have a power unit that we run with a Deutz air cooled diesel.  Are these exempt from the EPA?   These are both about 5 years old.

[Fla._Deadheader]

 Near as I know    Equipment has always been exempt. Put a NON-issue Diesel engine in a modern vehicle, and just try to get it through registration and inspection. SOME states still allow these changes, but, once California adopts a policy, seems like the rest of the states line up to conform, some sooner than others.

[Left Coast Chris]

We had a news paper article in our local paper about a VW dealer in Chico California who was battling the City regarding zoning to expand their lot.   In the picture background was a VW Jetta on the lot that had "Clean Diesel Vehicle" painted on the side.   It appears that new Diesels are allowed in Calif although I have not specifically seen any new ones on the road except Mercedes.

[Norm]

The reason they want a "loan" from the feds which is us taxpayers is that they can't go to the open financial markets and get one. Would you loan money to the neighbor that's losing money because he spends more than he makes?

I'm tired of bailing out the companies that have been  sticking it to me for years. Ever see what the profit margin on pickups is? Now I get to bail out freddie and fannie. Not one of their ceo's will spend any jail time even though what they did was worse than enron.

[Fla._Deadheader]

 Exactly my point, Norm.

[underdog]

The way big executives are paid is what has caused all this missery.
One failed company after another. They cook the books and manage in ways that increase there money and benefits at the expense of the employees and ultimatly the company itself then grab there golden parachutes and bail.
The big picture: http://www.directorship.com/wage-gap-affects-workers
http://www.foxbusiness.com/story/markets/business-leaders/despite-weakening-economy-ceo-pay-rises/

Life at the top of Ford: http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS121370+04-Apr-2008+PRN20080404
Ford president and chief executive officer, earned
       $2,000,000 in salary and received incentive bonus awards of $7 million.
       Total 2007 compensation was $21,670,674, which includes salary,
       bonuses, the Company-recognized expense for stock options and other
       stock-based awards, as well as all other compensation.
Last i heard Ford was in the worst shape.


Life at the top of GM: According to an Associated Press calculation, GM chairman and CEO Rick Wagoner received compensation valued at $15.7 million for 2007, up 64 per cent from the previous year.
http://www.canadianbusiness.com/markets/headline_news/article.jsp?content=b060365A

Life at the top of chrysler:
Refuse to disclose.......... There new leader
Nardelli to show that he no longer would be the poster-child for excessive executive compensation.
http://nwitimes.com/articles/2007/08/12/business/business/docd38ce38dd0ace27c86257333004da39a.txt
Nardelli  has already plunderd and pillaged Home Depot and grabed his chute from home depot.
Must still be something at Chrysler worth plundering or pillaging after the Germans got done with it.

Fanny and Freddie are the same as are most all of the really big ones.

We saw it coming years ago when they started slaughtering the workers, but could not do anything about it.
So now we are here. It is all "coming home to roost" and again the workers will take the brunt of the pain.

Yes this upsets me!
But i try to remember what my Father always told me "I didn't tear it up and i cannot fix it" All i can do is try to hold down my little slice of life.

[olyman]

The reason they want a "loan" from the feds which is us taxpayers is that they can't go to the open financial markets and get one. Would you loan money to the neighbor that's losing money because he spends more than he makes?

I'm tired of bailing out the companies that have been  sticking it to me for years. Ever see what the profit margin on pickups is? Now I get to bail out freddie and fannie. Not one of their ceo's will spend any jail time even though what they did was worse than enron.

  hit the nail perfectly--just the politicians bellying up to the bar again---as no common person would bail out a bank---and the officers should be in jail----

[Ron Wenrich]

So, what's the alternative, and is it good for the US economy?

[flip]

It is not a bail out it is leveling the playing field.  Has anyone seen how many billions of dollars the Japanese spend to subsidise the auto industry?  Then we as the US are dumb enough to give companies millions upon millions in tax breaks to drop a plant in the states.  We don't have any tarrifs on the junk comming into the country because technically the car is made in the US and only the drivetrain is imported.  If we don't at least help level the playing field or start taxing stuff that is comming in the US auto industry is going to bite the dust.  Two up comming players Tata in India and a Chinese collaboration car with Nissian.  Think those cars are gonna be expensive?  They are making cars right now and selling them for more than most US makers have in materials, think about that.

[Norm]

The alternative is to quit giving companies get of jail free cards. If they can't fund their companies by going to the private debt markets because of the risk in loaning to them why should we loan them money, especially at way below market rates. I don't believe that any company is too big or important to fail. If Ford was to go belly up they would be bought by another company. Toyota or others would love to have their market as would some of the emerging market players.

I feel the same way about freddie and fannie. The reason we bailed them out was that China Japan and others that hold their MSO's were putting pressure on Washington to keep them from defaulting on their debt. Both companies have been defended by the politicos on both sides of the fence but Mr Schumer and Mr Fank were as recently as this spring suggesting that they have less regulation and the ability to fund riskier loans. How about the dems that were getting sweetheart mortgages through them? Haven't seen one hearing about that.

[flip]

If Ford was to go belly up they would be bought by another company. Toyota or others would love to have their market as would some of the emerging market players.

And they would keep the truck line, sell the rest off and put about 4 million employees and dealers out of business.  Where will these people find jobs and pay their taxes??

You could say the same about farming, take away crop insurance and subsidies and if the farmer can make it great, if not someone else would buy them out.  That would never fly in America.

Instead of a loan I would rather see them tarriff the @#$% out of stuff comming into the country so everyone is on a level playing field and the yen or rupie and dollar are all equal.  To hades with NAFTA.

[StorminN]

Instead of a loan I would rather see them tarriff the @#$% out of stuff comming into the country so everyone is on a level playing field and the yen or rupie and dollar are all equal.  To hades with NAFTA.

If this were the case, we'd still all be driving Model T's... the big three would have no incentive to progress.

It's bad enough now... why can't we in the USA buy all the cool, efficient cars that are available to the rest of the world? Because of the car lobby here in the USA, that's why. If you support true capitalism, I say open it up to companies around the world... make it a truly level playing field, and don't protect the US companies, just because they are US.

Why the heck should the car industry or mortgage industry or whatever be "protected" or "nationalized" by the federal government? Why are these companies not allowed to fail? Sure, they're important industries and they employ lots of people, but if you or I owned a business and ran it as poorly as these companies have been run, no one would "bail us out", we'd be allowed to fail and tomorrow would be another day...

-Norm.

[Norm]

I'm all for getting rid of farm subsidies. If I can't make a living off of my own wits and business skills I don't deserve to be in business.

[flip]

If this were the case, we'd still all be driving Model T's... the big three would have no incentive to progress.

Car development is NOT based on what the manufacturer wants, it is based on what people want.

It's bad enough now... why can't we in the USA buy all the cool, efficient cars that are available to the rest of the world? Because of the car lobby here in the USA, that's why. If you support true capitalism, I say open it up to companies around the world... make it a truly level playing field, and don't protect the US companies, just because they are US.

First, other countries tax the bejeesus out of our imports making them too pricey to afford.  Yes, the mfgs. lobby to keep other cars out, heck, half of them (junk imports) would not pass the emissions or safety standards we have for our vehicles, do you want to drive something that is unsafe??    There are about 5 rougue states that don't think Federal Emissions are "good enough" and have come up with better ideas about how much stuff comes out of the tail pipe.  They also think there is some magic in a computer that keeps a car from getting 50mpg CAFE .  I would be fine with everything running a 4 cylinder turbo diesel but that is not what YOU the consumer have asked for.  Everyone wants clean, cheap and efficient pick 2 and 3/4 of what consumers ACTUALLY buy will not be on that list.  
 

Why the heck should the car industry or mortgage industry or whatever be "protected" or "nationalized" by the federal government? Why are these companies not allowed to fail? Sure, they're important industries and they employ lots of people, but if you or I owned a business and ran it as poorly as these companies have been run, no one would "bail us out", we'd be allowed to fail and tomorrow would be another day...

Apples to oranges.  You are talking about companies that employee millions directly or indirectly through suppliers.  Those million then pump hundreds of millions back into the economy both on the tax side and consumption side.   If you our I fail it's not because international competition to saw the neighbors logs.

You can blame the management, unions what ever you want but being a capitalist society we as the US are still a business.  If we keep choking ourselves to death with regulations and taxes we will not be able to compete in the international marketplace.  We have failed to protect our business (country) financially for decades and now we are seeing are those effects.  You and I can go get a small business loan, a lot of times at a very good rate through federal programs.  So I ask you, what is the difference?      

[OneWithWood]

The difference is that you and I cannot raise funds in the capital markets as readily as the big boys can.

[flip]

But it is proportinal.  Depending on the amount you need you will probably be asked for some collateral to secure the loan.  Come on folks, they are asking for a loan not a bail out or a handout.  If uncle sam would have done his job years ago our auto industry would be healthy.

[OneWithWood]

If the auto industry would have paid attention to business they would be healthy. 

[olyman]

If the auto industry would have paid attention to business they would be healthy. 

  much truth to that statement, and the one about overpaid exec's----and overpaid is the name of the game in many usa companys---which is driving costs up--not paid labor, in spite of what people think---

[SPIKER]

many things can be said about the bail out of fannie & freddie.  personally a big part of what has been happening is from world reactions to price of oil and to prices of loans real estate value/over value and the resulting drops ect.

as far as auto industry if people can't afford to pay for the home then how can they buy a new car?  here is how lets take out a 2nd mortgage on our already over valued home and buy a NEW car with the proceeds...  now the loan value is 150K on a house that is only actually worth 80K on todays open market.  Ok how did that happen?   by the fact that the US government has been telling fannie & freddie that they have to back home loans to people that are marginal at best for risk and for FHA VHA assumed mortgages. (note this was/is what has ACTUALLY happened)   the people whom live out front of me did exactly this they got new modular home after living in a trailer for a few years got FHA (with one of the freddie/fannie loans) to give them 120K on a property that has a tax value of 86K they bought 2 new cars with the extra money. then after paying $1000+ /mo on the loan for the house that was at best worth 65~70K in real money so they defaulted on the loan (basically walked out leaving FHA stuck with a house.  It went to bank auction which it was bought back by the bank for 2/3 loan value.   (amount owed at time of default was 129K) so bank has it on sale now for 86K hoping to get tax value out of it.   in actuality I would not pay even 70K for it if I didn't know what was under the 1.3 acre plot.   it was old farm homestead that was once a farm property dump site that has just about every thing burried under it...

that all being said I think that Ford & GM will get the LOAN that they are looking for.   In actuality it was Clinton whom made the big bid and signed into law the FREE TRADE ACT (NAFTA) which did not come into effect until AFTER he was leaving office which became G. W. Bush's problem.  which we all know what happened shortly after when we were attacked by the terrorists..

While I think that paying 25K for a car and or truck is terrible I still don't think 15K for a import is worth while for myself ...  Though you can now buy a brand new full size ford truck for under $14K...  that is a price I can handle but those 45K trucks???  Nope I can't see it.

free trade was a terriable idea and has been agreat down turn/fall for USA buisness...   that is only thing that Obama has a good plan for is keeping Jobs HERE but then he goes and basically tells everyone that he will pay them to not work and if you do work and better you're self and make money then he will take it from you to give it to everyone who is not working...  YAAA FOR FREEDOM... 

Personally they thing I feel that the government needs to pay more attention to HERE and start running USA like other countries run them selves.  (Tax imports at same rate that THEY tax our products/imports that they get from us.)   If they get 100 billion sent to US here in USA then we get to send them same amount if they only sell 100 million then the imbalance needs to be taxed as an import imbalance. 

But what do I know I'm just a hick in nowhere ville OHIO.   I WORK (when able right now off on med leave for back operation) since I was off I put most of my savings into stock market to try and work from home.   I made some lost some and learnt a lot.  under Obama I will be heavily taxed on pretty much every thing I make even though I am basically 1/2 step from loosing every thing as well.   I'm sure most of the people on this board are in similar sorts with a little cash in bank and working their but off to keep it there...   I worked my back off almost and now have no feeling below my knee after my operation, will I go after disability (nope) will I want a handicap sticker (nope) will I keep working as long as I can (Yep) does that make me a sucker (probably ) will that stop me (DAM SURE IT WON'T! )

Mark M

[flip]

If the auto industry would have paid attention to business they would be healthy. 

I don't understand, which business are you refering to, internal or the consumer side

If you mean the consumer side they have watched business and built the vehicles we have asked for, not what we really need.  Very few of us really need super duty diesels but we could afford them when diesel was cheap most of us could get by with gas burners.  It boils down to what we have asked for, not what Dearborn has dreamed up. 

If you mean internal, that is a differnt story and I don't want to get into that because I don't want to PO certain FF members.  I have a front row seat to what goes on and for years and from what I have seen a lot of the big 3s woes have been caused by being held hostage by organized labor.  That is all the farther I'm going on that.  The argument that the guys in the ivory towers are making all the money is a joke.  You have a few guys at the very top that make a mil or more but that is a drop in the bucket compared to what is paid out to those on the production end.

[underdog]

You missed my point.
It is not the amount of money the guys at the top get paid.
But you have to admit 2 million a month is a lot of jack even today. something like 200 cars a week just to them.
It is what they do to a company to get it.
They do not steer a company into the future they run it based on short term profits and maximizing its appeal to wall street.
They are all doing the same things so it must be the system and or values.
Thank you for the perspective from ring side.
Here is somthing that sticks in my mind.
American corporations plan for the next quarter the asians plan for the next quarter century.

[OneWithWood]

Well stated Underdog.

Spiker, you will pay taxes under either administration.  You would pay less under Obama if he got his full package through congress.
We all pay taxes.  That is the price of admission in this country.

[metalspinner]

OWW,
It's not paying the taxes that upsets most of us, but how the money is spent by those doing the collecting.

[SPIKER]

OWW:

I remember very distinctly when Clinton stated pretty much the exact same thing as Obama I won't raise taxes on middle & lower class.  ya right.   when his term was up we were paying the highest taxes around, more than any other president prior or since.   Carter was 2nd I think (something like that) these were facts per CNN (if you watch mister Kudro & Company on CNN)   Kudro is not for either candidate but has all the facts in front of him and grills the heck out of BOTH parties people whom are there already.   He also has a lot of shows on Banks, Companies & Company Presidents that get big bucks.  Hes seems to be a bit of an jerk many times but I like the fact that he don't pull his punches.   I admit I haven't heard much from McCain regarding his tax plans other than keeping the Bush Tax Cuts. and making it better for working families.   McCain also seems to have a lot less government expenderaturs that Obama has added a ton of Government interventions for the lower class and people who don't want to work and has plans of taking it from anyone whom is working or owns a buisness making some money.   I'm gettin into stock market and under his plan I'll loose pretty much all of my profits (though the last 3 days I've lost it all back due to bad crashes.) he wasnt to kale a great deal of that away.   McCain wants the tax code re-written & simplified.  I'm all for that for sure... (I have not idea what that means but that is what was said prior by the McCain camp that they want tax code all redone...)

This is what I would like to see.

 I wouldn't mind a flat or stepped tax system but needs to be simple no deductions if you make 50K a year with 3 kids no taxes are paid by you,  if you are single and make 35K/year or less no taxes.  next step up pays 5% taxes 75k/yr family 50ksingle pay 5% income to IRS   next step up 100K family & 75Ksingle pay 10% keep going up to say over 1million you pay 35% taxes.   if you are stupid rich then pay something like 50%.  this would pay out national dept of in a few years and then the tax rates all can drop a great deal..   though I also thing the GOV HAS to stop spending stupid amounts of OUR money.....

Just MY two cents...
Mark M

[OneWithWood]

Population growth is one of the real issues causing a strain on the earth and government.

Why continue to encourage folks to hatch kids with the tax code?
Families with kids consume way more tax dollars than those without.  Why is it deemed a good thing to require those without to pay proportunately way more?

I am not anti-family, though I think it is only prudent to limit your family to two children. 

How about allowing deductions for dependants to max out at two?

[beenthere]

OWW
I have no problem with that limit....but I'd go one step more and ask why not for a flat tax (suggest 5%) and have NO DEDUCTIONS at all...nada. 

[flip]

Population growth is one of the real issues causing a strain on the earth and government.

Why continue to encourage folks to hatch kids with the tax code?
Families with kids consume way more tax dollars than those without.  Why is it deemed a good thing to require those without to pay proportunately way more?

I am not anti-family, though I think it is only prudent to limit your family to two children. 

How about allowing deductions for dependants to max out at two?

That statement needs to be checked.  Handouts and government programs, not tax deductions propigate un checked baby havin'.  Irresponsibility has lead to the explosion of broken families and our all caring and benevolent government has seen fit to give out checks to these people.  2 kids?  That's fine, but who is going to put up the Welcome to China sign at the border and who will be providing the free sterilization, oh yea, our benevolant govt.

[SPIKER]

Population growth is one of the real issues causing a strain on the earth and government.

Why continue to encourage folks to hatch kids with the tax code?
Families with kids consume way more tax dollars than those without.  Why is it deemed a good thing to require those without to pay proportunately way more?

I am not anti-family, though I think it is only prudent to limit your family to two children. 

How about allowing deductions for dependants to max out at two?

OWW  I can't argue with that!

I'm all for limiting tax deductions, that is how so many working poor have found an easy income.   (I'll give you direct info from some people that live in my old house and I'm land contracting it to them)   they both hardly every work, have 4 kids and get back something like 2 or 3 grand MORE than they pay in to taxes due to earned income tax credits ect.  they have their heat paid for by the gas company, electric paid by electric company and the like.  they also get food stamps and welfare pays all medical bills...   on the other hand, I have no kids am not married work my @$$ off and do every thing I can to make money and all I get usually at end of year is a bigger tax bill...

Under OBAMA i will be paying even more money simply due to the fact I have no kids I earn money and I invest some of the money I earn I have money in the bank (get a little interest) and have a 401K all of which under his plan goes against me. even though I'm working my arse off I will loose money so might as well sell every thing off an live off the other sucker that are breaking their backs to earn$  one good thing is Obama will open up the borders to illegal aliens come into USA AND make them pay taxes too so i can go onto welfare? :x  but then again he wants to let them bring all their families & kids along to get educated and pay them to go to school/collage so they can earn better living & pay more taxes. 

Sorry about the rant.  just when I see ANYONE say they will cut taxes on the middle class it has been found that 95% of the time they later say it can't be done so instead they will raise them on everyone...   Bush tax cuts aside they actually have helped me as well as the 600 back was spent as well on car parts.   

But I don't really remember him (G W Bush) saying he would cut taxes all that much. but then every thing changed 7 years and 1 day ago just after Bush took office, so any plans he had were tossed out in favor of rebuilding military and FBI/CIA/Security sector that were hammered under Clinton...   

EDIT IN:
 beenthere: I'm all for that my tax bill would drop significantly!  though I think 5% is not enough.   I like the stepped method above I posted. but a flat tax is fine too... 
 
FLIP:  Yep I totally agree.  I dated a lot of SINGLY baby mommas that would have 3, 4 or 5 kids all by different dads...  yep collecting welfare and not working and not going to school, (needless to say I didn't date them long!)   They limited time you could be on welfare back a few years but there was a stipulation that if you had anuther kid you got to stay on 2 more years longer. so there was an incentive to keep having em as well as you got more $ from gov for extra kid...   go figure.. oh I think that was like 10 yrs ago now?
Mark

[John Mc]

I remember very distinctly when Clinton stated pretty much the exact same thing as Obama I won't raise taxes on middle & lower class.  ya right.   when his term was up we were paying the highest taxes around, more than any other president prior or since.

Now, the government is spending much more (even before you count spending the war in Iraq), they're just not taking in the money in taxes to support that level of spending. We are living on borrowed money, which our kids and grandkids will have to pay. DanG irresponsible, if you ask me. Our government (and us as citizens) need to learn to live within our means.

[SPIKER]

just a added note:  this is a tax plan chart from an investing forum, it is GENERAL I guess so...

Here it is seems if you are really rich Obama might really be getting you taxed  

http://seekingalpha.com/article/95350-can-we-please-have-some-sanity-when-it-comes-to-taxes?source=email


seems that they are letting Leighmans Brothers go belly up too as of Sat evening, and they even opened stock market yesterday to let insiders try & sell off parts of it!?!?!?   They also mentioned that AIG (big bank/stock/insurer is also on the chopping blocks so watch out..!)   If you have any stock in Ford/GM or a 401K managed by someone else you may want to get rid of it !?  maybe heading  for a collapse soon y a few articals I'm reading
Mark