This Oughta Get Yer Attention

[Fla._Deadheader]

  The "Big 3" want 50 BILLION.
 Link

[Kevin_H.]

What do we get for our 50 billion, is the federal gov. gonna set standards that these hybrids and electric cars have to be on the market in a certain amount of time? or is the auto makers gonna come back in 3 years and say they just could not do it and we get nothing for our money.

it sounds like they are gonna get the 25 no matter what.

[Fla._Deadheader]

 Down here, you could buy Chevy Luv's, with Isuzu Diesel engine's in 'em, YEARS ago. I have one of the engines, now.

  Chevy-Ford- Toyota- Mercedes-Nissan- many other brands, ALL have Diesels in 'em, here. Diesels in smaller vehicles, dominate the roads, here. Shoot all the EPA people, and sell diesels in the states, now that demand is up for them. Every Bio Forum I go on, is BEGGING for small Diesels Same with Ethanol power. I'm not a big fan of Ethanol, except for LOCALIZED Production. Trucking fuel all over the country is just plain stoopid.

  Remember when Iacocca brought Chrysler back from Bankruptcy   That was a LOAN, IF I remember correctly.

  If the Big 3 can't make it on their own, whose fault is THAT They sell what makes them BIG single Profits, not mass profits  

  I don't care what anybody says. It doesn't take $25,000.00 to build a sensible vehicle. Factory workers were never meant to have 2 houses, 3 cars, and 4 weeks vacation a year   It's also hardly skilled labor to build the vehicles. 

  The US won't even ALLOW small Diesels to be brought into the states for sale

[Ron Wenrich]

But, this is a loan over 3 years and is not a bailout.  Big difference.  With a loan, we should get paid back.  I would make a stipulation that the loan gets paid back before there are officer bonuses or any accelerated dividends.  Besides, this is an increase of from $25 billion that they just got to $50 billion.  Not an additional $50 billion.

I don't think it is in the financial interests of the US to have one of the Big 3 go belly up. 

I have a small diesel in my tractor and we have a power unit that we run with a Deutz air cooled diesel.  Are these exempt from the EPA?   These are both about 5 years old.

[Fla._Deadheader]

 Near as I know    Equipment has always been exempt. Put a NON-issue Diesel engine in a modern vehicle, and just try to get it through registration and inspection. SOME states still allow these changes, but, once California adopts a policy, seems like the rest of the states line up to conform, some sooner than others.

[Left Coast Chris]

We had a news paper article in our local paper about a VW dealer in Chico California who was battling the City regarding zoning to expand their lot.   In the picture background was a VW Jetta on the lot that had "Clean Diesel Vehicle" painted on the side.   It appears that new Diesels are allowed in Calif although I have not specifically seen any new ones on the road except Mercedes.

[Norm]

The reason they want a "loan" from the feds which is us taxpayers is that they can't go to the open financial markets and get one. Would you loan money to the neighbor that's losing money because he spends more than he makes?

I'm tired of bailing out the companies that have been  sticking it to me for years. Ever see what the profit margin on pickups is? Now I get to bail out freddie and fannie. Not one of their ceo's will spend any jail time even though what they did was worse than enron.

[Fla._Deadheader]

 Exactly my point, Norm.

[underdog]

The way big executives are paid is what has caused all this missery.
One failed company after another. They cook the books and manage in ways that increase there money and benefits at the expense of the employees and ultimatly the company itself then grab there golden parachutes and bail.
The big picture: http://www.directorship.com/wage-gap-affects-workers
http://www.foxbusiness.com/story/markets/business-leaders/despite-weakening-economy-ceo-pay-rises/

Life at the top of Ford: http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS121370+04-Apr-2008+PRN20080404
Ford president and chief executive officer, earned
       $2,000,000 in salary and received incentive bonus awards of $7 million.
       Total 2007 compensation was $21,670,674, which includes salary,
       bonuses, the Company-recognized expense for stock options and other
       stock-based awards, as well as all other compensation.
Last i heard Ford was in the worst shape.


Life at the top of GM: According to an Associated Press calculation, GM chairman and CEO Rick Wagoner received compensation valued at $15.7 million for 2007, up 64 per cent from the previous year.
http://www.canadianbusiness.com/markets/headline_news/article.jsp?content=b060365A

Life at the top of chrysler:
Refuse to disclose.......... There new leader
Nardelli to show that he no longer would be the poster-child for excessive executive compensation.
http://nwitimes.com/articles/2007/08/12/business/business/docd38ce38dd0ace27c86257333004da39a.txt
Nardelli  has already plunderd and pillaged Home Depot and grabed his chute from home depot.
Must still be something at Chrysler worth plundering or pillaging after the Germans got done with it.

Fanny and Freddie are the same as are most all of the really big ones.

We saw it coming years ago when they started slaughtering the workers, but could not do anything about it.
So now we are here. It is all "coming home to roost" and again the workers will take the brunt of the pain.

Yes this upsets me!
But i try to remember what my Father always told me "I didn't tear it up and i cannot fix it" All i can do is try to hold down my little slice of life.

[olyman]

The reason they want a "loan" from the feds which is us taxpayers is that they can't go to the open financial markets and get one. Would you loan money to the neighbor that's losing money because he spends more than he makes?

I'm tired of bailing out the companies that have been  sticking it to me for years. Ever see what the profit margin on pickups is? Now I get to bail out freddie and fannie. Not one of their ceo's will spend any jail time even though what they did was worse than enron.

  hit the nail perfectly--just the politicians bellying up to the bar again---as no common person would bail out a bank---and the officers should be in jail----

[Ron Wenrich]

So, what's the alternative, and is it good for the US economy?

[flip]

It is not a bail out it is leveling the playing field.  Has anyone seen how many billions of dollars the Japanese spend to subsidise the auto industry?  Then we as the US are dumb enough to give companies millions upon millions in tax breaks to drop a plant in the states.  We don't have any tarrifs on the junk comming into the country because technically the car is made in the US and only the drivetrain is imported.  If we don't at least help level the playing field or start taxing stuff that is comming in the US auto industry is going to bite the dust.  Two up comming players Tata in India and a Chinese collaboration car with Nissian.  Think those cars are gonna be expensive?  They are making cars right now and selling them for more than most US makers have in materials, think about that.

[Norm]

The alternative is to quit giving companies get of jail free cards. If they can't fund their companies by going to the private debt markets because of the risk in loaning to them why should we loan them money, especially at way below market rates. I don't believe that any company is too big or important to fail. If Ford was to go belly up they would be bought by another company. Toyota or others would love to have their market as would some of the emerging market players.

I feel the same way about freddie and fannie. The reason we bailed them out was that China Japan and others that hold their MSO's were putting pressure on Washington to keep them from defaulting on their debt. Both companies have been defended by the politicos on both sides of the fence but Mr Schumer and Mr Fank were as recently as this spring suggesting that they have less regulation and the ability to fund riskier loans. How about the dems that were getting sweetheart mortgages through them? Haven't seen one hearing about that.

[flip]

If Ford was to go belly up they would be bought by another company. Toyota or others would love to have their market as would some of the emerging market players.

And they would keep the truck line, sell the rest off and put about 4 million employees and dealers out of business.  Where will these people find jobs and pay their taxes??

You could say the same about farming, take away crop insurance and subsidies and if the farmer can make it great, if not someone else would buy them out.  That would never fly in America.

Instead of a loan I would rather see them tarriff the @#$% out of stuff comming into the country so everyone is on a level playing field and the yen or rupie and dollar are all equal.  To hades with NAFTA.

[StorminN]

Instead of a loan I would rather see them tarriff the @#$% out of stuff comming into the country so everyone is on a level playing field and the yen or rupie and dollar are all equal.  To hades with NAFTA.

If this were the case, we'd still all be driving Model T's... the big three would have no incentive to progress.

It's bad enough now... why can't we in the USA buy all the cool, efficient cars that are available to the rest of the world? Because of the car lobby here in the USA, that's why. If you support true capitalism, I say open it up to companies around the world... make it a truly level playing field, and don't protect the US companies, just because they are US.

Why the heck should the car industry or mortgage industry or whatever be "protected" or "nationalized" by the federal government? Why are these companies not allowed to fail? Sure, they're important industries and they employ lots of people, but if you or I owned a business and ran it as poorly as these companies have been run, no one would "bail us out", we'd be allowed to fail and tomorrow would be another day...

-Norm.

[Norm]

I'm all for getting rid of farm subsidies. If I can't make a living off of my own wits and business skills I don't deserve to be in business.

[flip]

If this were the case, we'd still all be driving Model T's... the big three would have no incentive to progress.

Car development is NOT based on what the manufacturer wants, it is based on what people want.

It's bad enough now... why can't we in the USA buy all the cool, efficient cars that are available to the rest of the world? Because of the car lobby here in the USA, that's why. If you support true capitalism, I say open it up to companies around the world... make it a truly level playing field, and don't protect the US companies, just because they are US.

First, other countries tax the bejeesus out of our imports making them too pricey to afford.  Yes, the mfgs. lobby to keep other cars out, heck, half of them (junk imports) would not pass the emissions or safety standards we have for our vehicles, do you want to drive something that is unsafe??    There are about 5 rougue states that don't think Federal Emissions are "good enough" and have come up with better ideas about how much stuff comes out of the tail pipe.  They also think there is some magic in a computer that keeps a car from getting 50mpg CAFE .  I would be fine with everything running a 4 cylinder turbo diesel but that is not what YOU the consumer have asked for.  Everyone wants clean, cheap and efficient pick 2 and 3/4 of what consumers ACTUALLY buy will not be on that list.  
 

Why the heck should the car industry or mortgage industry or whatever be "protected" or "nationalized" by the federal government? Why are these companies not allowed to fail? Sure, they're important industries and they employ lots of people, but if you or I owned a business and ran it as poorly as these companies have been run, no one would "bail us out", we'd be allowed to fail and tomorrow would be another day...

Apples to oranges.  You are talking about companies that employee millions directly or indirectly through suppliers.  Those million then pump hundreds of millions back into the economy both on the tax side and consumption side.   If you our I fail it's not because international competition to saw the neighbors logs.

You can blame the management, unions what ever you want but being a capitalist society we as the US are still a business.  If we keep choking ourselves to death with regulations and taxes we will not be able to compete in the international marketplace.  We have failed to protect our business (country) financially for decades and now we are seeing are those effects.  You and I can go get a small business loan, a lot of times at a very good rate through federal programs.  So I ask you, what is the difference?      

[OneWithWood]

The difference is that you and I cannot raise funds in the capital markets as readily as the big boys can.

[flip]

But it is proportinal.  Depending on the amount you need you will probably be asked for some collateral to secure the loan.  Come on folks, they are asking for a loan not a bail out or a handout.  If uncle sam would have done his job years ago our auto industry would be healthy.

[OneWithWood]

If the auto industry would have paid attention to business they would be healthy.