A day of walnut cutting

[sawwood]

Here are some shots of the sawer i use to cut up walnut
and oak. Ron sure does a good job but is seems i do all
the work.  I sure injoy going out to the mill and just for
git what is bad in the world.  I will take the wood up to
Larry Coppas to have him kiln dry it. We will be using the
wood to make new Vanitys for both of the bath rooms we
are remodling.

Sawwood

[Norm]

Nice looking chunk of walnut ya got there sawwood, now you could have strapped it to the top of your jeep and let us practice on it when you were here.

I know what you mean about forgetting your troubles when sawing, even though it's hard work I find it really helps me unwind after a long week of bs at work.

[Bibbyman]

What is Ron doing in the third picture?  Trying to get his hand caught in the log turner?  

[ElectricAl]

Wow, a TimberKing.  

It's nice to see different brands of saws once in a while.

[Bibbyman]

I wondered what that was. Why does it need all them posts to hold up the sawhead?



We tried to get Ron to switch hats but he kept the one he had.

[Larry]

I saw Ron in TK headquarters couple of months ago.  Think he made a comment about those mills that don't have enough legs to hold their heads up but can't be positive.

At least I'm glad to see them picking on little logs this time.  Last time Sawwood brought lumber up to dry the DanG boards were mostly 11' long 16" and wider.  They out weighed me and I had to put em on sticks.

[sawwood]

Bibbyman Ron is putting a weg againce the log to help hold
it up as it was off the bed. as he held it in place i moved the
log holder in place. He seems to think that 4 post will help
hold the saw head better. I have lloked at a few saws and i
think WM has the best one for what i would like to have in
a saw. Larry you asked for smaller lumber and i made sure
we cut the walnut samller for you.

Sawwood

[Will_Johnson]

Man oh man, Sawwood.  At first I was so glad to see these nice photos, and then you follow up with a dis on the good ol' TK mill that's cut so much wood for you.  Like kicking your old faithful mule!  After all the times you've been in here at our seminars, what a slap in the face!    

Actually, Bibby, Ron did keep his Wood-Mizer hat.  I've got it in my "scalp" collection along with not a few black and orange jackets!

Ron does quite a good business in the Kansas City area.  His mill has over 2,000 hours on his mill.  ...I keep telling him he needs a new one.  He tells me if we hadn't built it so well the first time around he might consider it.  But as things stand he can't see why he should get a new one when his old mule is still pulling so hard (in spite of the occasional kick from Sawwood...)

[Bibbyman]

Will,

Maybe you need to make Ron a deal he can't refuse on one of your new bigger 2400 models coming out?  Then Sawwood can tell us how it does.  

Also,  looks like the next time we see Ron at one of the forest industry shows,  he should have an extra TK hat for the WM guys.  

He wouldn't give up his TK hat at the Springfield, MO show because he said he had it broke in just right.  Can't argue with that.  It takes 3-6 months to brake a hat in just right.

[Will_Johnson]

Bibby, if you'd wear it I'll put a TK hat in the mail today.  Only question is, do you want Camo or Black.  And oh yeah, do you want a new one or one that's already broke in?    

[Bibbyman]

Sure,  make it a new camo.  

Just don't tell Ron and the next time I see him coming at one of the Forsety shows,  I'll put it on.  He won't know what to think.

I'll probably give the break in duty to my youngest son.  For some reason,  he glums onto every new hat that come in the house and wears it until another the next one comes in.

[Furby]

 Hey Will,
If you all can give me a REALLY GOOD deal I might just take Ron's old mill off your hands

[sawwood]

Sorry Will but your timber king is a great saw and Ron has
cut a lot of BF for me. The one thing if i may say so,the
scale board could be better as Ron does a lot of adjustment
befor he git it on the mark. The mill is one tought unit as
Ron has put it to the max and it still working good. Are
you going to be at the Midwest Forest Show in Sept ?

Ron and I are going down on Saterday so Bibbyman if
you are there we will look you up.

 Sawwood

[Bibbyman]

I'll be there if I'm still kickin'  

Figured out a new use for the TK hat.  I can put it on and nobody will recognize me.  I could rob a bank and people will say; "It looked[/i] like Bibbyman but he was wearing a TimberKing hat so it couldn't have been him."  

[Tom]

That's a plus with the old mill Sawwood.   The up/down motor and sheaves are right in front of you and as you drop or raise the head you can reach out there and grab hold of the pulley to stop it where you want.  You can also give it a lick to turn it some to rais or drop a fractio without turning the motor back on again.

Lots of these niceties of simplicity go away with "improvement"

[Bibbyman]

Tom, are you talking about the older Wood-Mizer mills?  

I've seen many of the older mills run like that. And a couple of newer Wood-Mizer ran that way by older operators by removing the shielding.

That may be the case with the TK too.  Maybe not because the head could be "down the track" from the operator.

I suspect Ron is being very cautions in making his drops.  If you compare the manual process with a mill with computer setworks then it will look slow - no matter what brand or color.

[Tom]

Yeah, I was talking about the older 'woodmizers.    I guess I would qualify for the older operators too if I had a newer Woodmizer.  

I don't think you could stop a TimberKing like that.  As I remember the one in Folkston has acme threads.  Now, that's a pretty finite controller.

Setworks can be faster because you quit counting and just push buttons.   The times that mine used to work I would sleep better at night and not go home nearly as tired either.

[sawwood]

Tom and Bibbyman the TK has a scale on the frame and a
line on the head. you drop down the head and aline the line
to the next mark on the scale. Ron makes diff scales for
what he is cutting. You have to bring the head all the way
back to see the marks. What would you say was the most
handy scale to have on a mill ?

Sawwood

[Tom]

What he has works just fine. It is difficult to do when you have someone talking to you but the fastest way is to use one scale (the true scale) and keep track of your drops in your head. That way you can switch from one thickness to another.  Most mills have true scales incremented in 32nds and that gets awfully confusing. When you realize that your blade takes out or wanders around in about a 16th then measuring on the eighth's is real convenient.   Sometimes we all get a little anal about the accuracy of a board when it is going to shrink when it dries anyway.  If you over-cut a sixteenth (Use only the eighth marks) your boards will still be alike, you will have shrinking room and planing room and it's not difficult to keep track of where you are or want to be.

Here is a little secret.  Now don't laugh please till you hear me out.

Have you ever heard someone who doesn't know how to read a tape measure say "one and two of those little marks"?

Well, if you will do that instead of mentally counting 29 and 3/8's and I want to drop an inch and a half. and then the kerf......let's see...?? ??

You have to remember where you were regardless.

Say to yourself, "I want to drop one inch and one mark".  Remember where you were so that when you bring the sawhead back you can say " one....and one".

Dropping one and three gives you 5/4.  Dropping 1 and 5 gives you 6/4.  Do you want to fatten the board up?  Then add another eighth (mark).  quit thinking in things that are confusing.

Who cares if your not calling it three quarters and a half and one eighth or a quarter.   It's just another of those little marks.

The most difficult part is remembering which "little mark" you were on and dropping the increment of the board, as in one inch.  Then just add the little mark or a couple if you need them.

[Bibbyman]

The best I've every used it the Wood-Mizer Accuset.  Just buy a WM with that option.  

I'm sure TK and Baker and the others all have some version of a computer setworks. I don't know if they have all the features of the Accuset.  With the Accuset you can custom pre-program 16 patterns, 16 Auto ups and downs and 4 go to's.

You can input and adjust the kerf so when you want a board 1-1/16",  you'll get 1-1/16".  Changed to a blade with a different kerf and change the kerf setting - get the same thinckness board.

Mills with a scale work just fine weather power up/down or not.  They just take longer to twink to get on the mark on the scale and the kerf is somewhat of a guess. Then you'll be close'nuff for who it's for but not "dead nuts" on.

[Tom]

Setworks are great....but..........    they don't always work.
Mine don't work.  Never have.  Well maybe for a couple of weeks at time but only long enough for me to learn that I liked them.

I think that we must learn to do things on our own before we do them automatically.  Learning to drive with an Automatic transmission is great but you will not understand what is going on unless you've driven a standard.  

Using a calculator to find the answer is quick and accurate but hitting the wrong button may have you believing that the wrong answer is right unless you actually learned to do it manually.  That way you learn how numbers work and how that answer "just doesn't look right:.,

Using a computer to keep books is great too but to understand the books you need to understand how all those numbers relate.

I feel the same about setworks.   I wish I had setworks that worked.  They are a great labor saver.  You can talk to someone while you saw.  You go home not so tired.  but you don't really understand what it is that you are cutting unless you've learned to do it manually.

I worked with a new photographer at the newspaper years ago that was always trying to create "modern art" with his photographs.  The chief would get real irritated because the story wasn't being told.  This kid thought that he was the greatest artist in the world.  Finally the chief told him one day (I overheard), "learn to do it right first then you can screw it up all you want because you will know where you are going".

I  have always remembered that little bit and its truth.

Most of the sawyers who are able to make a setworks sing are the ones who sawed without one and understand where they are going.  


Whew.......!

[Bibbyman]

Tom your remarks about the marks are right on.  We did that exact thing when making drops.

But your story reminded me of a conversation I had years ago with one of the metal workers in the factory.  I worked in Engineering and I was asked to go down and help this guy with some questions about how to locate a hole in this new part.  I took a drawing down and showed him the holes had to be 5.187 apart.  He replied he didn’t know what .187 meant.  I explained it was 187/1000.  That was still a puzzle.  He said “All I want to know is how many big marks and how many small marks on this tape.”  The tape measure they were issued had only inch and 1/10” marks.  I told him 5 big and 2 small.  He was happy.  He measured it off and marked the location with a grease pencil. From then on,  I designed everything I could with slots.

A few years later they instituted a two-week training program for new hires. It covered a lot of skills needed to function in the factory – including reading a drawing, different types of measuring tools, and basic math.   I was told most new hires didn’t know how to read a ruler – many were just out of high school.

[sawwood]

Tom that sounds like the best way to do the scale. I know
when i am making furnitue some times all thoes numbers
git me all messed up. I agree one scale would be better.

While i am think about all this sawing has any one  though
about a chat night ? One night a week say 8pm till 10 to
chat about a subject ?

Sawwood

[Tom]

Shucks, you mean I have to limit my big mouth to one night a week?

[Chet]

Well Dang it Tom, I've only been sawing on my own for a relatively short time now, but have came up with that same 15 & 2 method. I thunk I did it dat way cuz I was to dumb to do it da correct way.    Now ya made me feel lots better.  

[woodmills1]

most of the time I use the woodmizers quarter scale if I am just sawing 4/4.  But right on with the 1 plus 2 lines.  I use the same kind of thinking when I have a target size for a cant or if the center of a log is to be cut into 2 inch material. say when I cut the 4x4 pine dunnage out of smaller logs it is quite simple to add an inch plus 2 sixteenth lines and i find myself talking in my head 5 and 2 6 and 4 etc.

for awhile I was cutting pine pallet stock at 1 1/2 by 4.  nirvana was a log that squared to 12 x 12 since both finish dimentions divided evenly.  when the cant was 7 1/2 by 8 I didn't dare talk to anyone for fear of cuttin the wrong face at the wrong multiple.

[Bibbyman]

We had a couple of WM scales.  We had one that had 4/4 as 1-1/8 and another that had it spaced out at 1-3/16.  They were "back to back" on the same strip of metel.  You could just pull it and turn it over.

We'd sometimes make our own marks with lead pencel for other odd thicknesses.  By the time we were ready to saw some other odd thickness, the pincel marks had worn off or could easaly rubbed off.

On our new Wood-Mizer with Accuset,  there is a manual scale on the sawhead like before but it's hardly looked at and not really used.  I'm not sure how you can run a Super without an Accuset.  I'm sure it's done but the head moves up and down so fast,  it drives you nuts trying to hit the mark.  

You can and do use manual mode to say open a face where you're just eyeballing the first cut.  Or can go to manual to move the head up to start on the next face.

[Will_Johnson]

Just a note on how the TK B-20 comes equipped.  It comes standard with our computer SuperSetworks.  

The ACME rods mean it is able to stop "on a dime" and give excellent accuracy.  It doesn't have all the features of the WM accuset.  Like all of our engineering we like to "keep it simple." It simply lowers the head the distance you specify with four changeable pre-sets. It allows for kerf.

While the TK SuperSetworks is not as fancy, as I say it comes standard on a mill that sells for under $20K with setworks, complete hydraulics, transport package, full warranties.  

[Bibbyman]

Will,

Will it also raise the head a set amount?  

Sometimes I'll set the blade at where I think I can make my first full open face cut - say 6" wide face.  Then I'll raise the head 1" to make the first cut.  Then drop an inch to make my full face cut - thus produce a short board out of the taper.  

Another use would be something kin to patterns sawing.  I'll find the center of the log,  raise the sawhead half the thickness of the post or beam I'm wanting to saw and then start from there hitting my up (auto up on the WM) until I get to the point of making my opening face.  Saw and then down for my next cut until I get to where I want to stop so to center the heart in the post or beam.


TimberKing SuperSetworks.

Wood-Mizer Accuset (box on top)


Knowledge Base tip - using the WM Accuset

[Jeff]

On our big mill we have quite complex setworks. I dont always use them, especially for thicker stuff. 2" plus. The great thing about our setworks is the fact that they will as Will says the T.K. does, stop on a dime.  I have fast or slow forward, (up and down for most of yoiu boys ). That means I can get to where I need to be fast, and have the last couple bumps with the slow to be exact.

I have had this argument with the kid we have here that saws back up. They had a 5000 dollar setworks on his dads old meadows mill that would set within 1000th of an inch he says, He says we need one here!

I said what the hell for?

[Bibbyman]

Yea, it's kind of like - dimension to 5 decimal places, measure with a micrometer, mark with a piece of chalk, and cut with an ax!

These devices are probably variations of programable controllers they put on milling machines.  The accuracy for this application is overkill.  But the speed and convenience sure is nice.  

[D._Frederick]

When WM had there first computor at the show, I watched them sawing fir logs into dimensional lumber. When sawing-up a cant, they took off a slap then sawed the rest with the computor  set-works, then just before the last board they cut what they called a shim board and thru this board on the slap pile. I asked the sawyer why he didn't start the first cut so that he would not need the shim cut, said the computor would not do this.  From this I concluded that the computor was a waste of money. WM must have thought so too, because they put a computor on there mill that now do what a"good sawyer" would do in there heads. A great improvement for the every day sawyer that does not saw 40hrs a week.

[Bibbyman]

D,  we've been using the Accuset for a year and a half and the procedure you described – we don’t do.  Not sure why they did it that way.  

Would it happen to have been their earlier setworks called SimpleSetworks?  Could have been if it was more than 3 or 4  years ago. As I understand it,  SimpleSetworks only went up or down from where you started.  SimpleSetworks is still available.



Wood-Mizer SimpleSetworks

The Accuset references the saw bed and you can program right down to the last board and make 6 different thicknesses on the way down – if you want.




Wood-Mizer Accuset

[D._Frederick]

Bibby,
Yes, it was the early model. Was at the show, 98 or 99 time frame. There new computor has all the nut and bolts a sawyer should need, a great improvement! Other than a little more speed the first model was a waste of a $K.

[Bibbyman]

They've even made the latest version of Accuset even better by adding 4 programmable "go to" sets.  When you done with a log,  you can hit a button and then the up lever and the head will rise to whatever "go to" location you have programmed and set.  We've got one programmed to 12" another at 24" and so on.  If you are running mostly small logs,  on your last cut,  hit the "go to", hit the up lever and the head will rise up to 12".  Meanwhile, you can pay attainting to returning the head, unclamping, pulling the last board and loading the next log.

They've also made the programming of the drops much faster and easier.  You adjust the first one of 6 drops to the dimension you want and then when you shift to the next dimension,  it copies the dimension from above as that is normally what you want.  Before,  you had to adjust each one. Poke, poke, poke. Poke, poke poke.

[sawwood]

Thanks guys for all the threws on this scale boards. See tom
if we had a chat night, and by the way you would will still post
lots of stuff all week long, a lot of us newbe would learn a
lot. I have learned a lot about all the diff ways to use a scale
and some of the new coumper setworks.  It just took a week
to read and reread them all. Jeff what about it a chat night ?

Ron called me last night about when we will cut up the rest
of my logs and we talked about his scale on his mill and
when i go out we will do some more looking at it. Bibby do
you still have the WM scale board? I would like to see one
so i can git see what you guys are talking about 1 plus 2
marks. Have a good week end.

Sawwood

[Bibbyman]

All the ones I had went down the road attached to the mills when they sold.  Oh yea,  got one on the new LT40HDE25 but it's just there like the turn signal lenses. (We have a stationary mill wired for traffic lights.)

I'll look around and see if I can find a picture.


Here is the best shot I can find.  Didn't know I had it.  The rule on the right is a regular 1" scale marked down to the nearest 1/16".  The scale on the left has marks that are spaced for 4/4, 5/4, 6/4 and 8/4 cuts.  

How it works is - Lest us say you want to make 4/4 lumber - your opening face cut (cut off the slab.) The left scale can be adjusted up and down (has a simple thumb screw to loosen and slide the scale then retighten) so you adjust the left scale until it's on the nearest mark.  Then you just lower the head to the next mark and saw off the next board and so on. (There is a lexan strip with a line scribed on it to use as a sight for making the adjustments.)

You don't have to read or count the "big" or "little" marks on the regular 1" scale on the right side.

Now,  there are a couple of versions of these grade scales.  One saws 4/4 on 1-1/8" drop,  another on 1-3/16.  There may be one that is spaced to 1-1/4".  We had one on one side of the steel strip and another on the other.  Just loosen the adjustment thumbnut and pull it out and turn it over.

One thing nice about "walking with the head" on a Wood-Mizer mill is that the scale is always right there in front of you within arms reach and easy reading distance.

[sawwood]

Thanks Bibby for the photo. I see in the scale it would be
simple to use. Ron has a scale that he made and he just
tapes it to the post. His has the platice lens with the line.
He just bumpes the switch up or down till it lines with the
mark he is reading. Will take a picture of it next time i
cut with him.

Sawwood

[AtLast]

Still not sold on that gravity verses weight thingy....sorta like when u wer bad in school and the teacher made ya hold erasers out to your sides...eventually the weight beat the strength and gravity won...but hey..Im no rocket sciencetist..

[sawwood]

Wow after reading all the post here and the one Bibby has
on how do you approch sawing i see i need to to go back
to the start line. Is there any books on log cutting that would
be good for a newbe ? I sure see that there is a lot to learn.
I guess i will have to see if Ron will just take a couple of
hours and show me how to cut with the scale board.and set
the log. I have cut with him but it seem that i am working
so fas that i miss some of what he is doing. The class that
the NHLA has on sawing is it a good place to start to learn ?

I am also learning a lot and will read all the post every day.

Sawwood

[Larry]

Sawwood,
I think that 1 plus 2 stuff came from carpenters.  For framers 1 plus 2 would be 1" plus 2 eight's.  For finish guys it might mean 1" plus 2 sixteenths.  If there good you could hear a call like 1 plus 2 heavy or 1 plus 2 light.

For reading material the knowledge base right here is pretty good.  Another source is the Forest Products laboratory at http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/pubs.htm  It would take forever to get through every thing they have on their site.

I print out some of these threads and put them in a plastic sleeve and then they go into a notebook.  I have always had problems with dealing with log stress.  I think it was Tom that put something together on that and I refer to it quite often.  Bibby and a bunch of the others add something new about every day.

I got a few pamphlets and books that I could drop in the mail to you if you want to go that route.

In the end I like to watch a good sawyer that will answer questions.  Next time you're with Ron watch him squint at the scale and ask him what he is doing.

[Bibbyman]

Here is Tom's tip on the Knowledge Base on Removing Stress in a cant (Thick middle Thin end).  

We've hid all this stuff in the Knowledge Base so only we can find it.  Think of the Knowledge Base as everyone's plastic bag.

[AtLast]

Bibby and Tom...thanks for that knowledge base post..EXCELLANT information....it always seems to PRETTY much go " back to basics"..I havent had alot of stress encounters as of yet..been WAY lucky...but now Ill know exactally how to deal with them...thanks fellers!!!!

[AtLast]

My Baker has about the same scale as the WM...standard measurments without kerf..that 4/4, 6/4..8/4 WITH kerf...the carriage movement is so smooth that aligning it is very simple and accurate...Ive recently gotten blades from Timber Wolf that are the 1 1/2 X 7/8...89ss .047 with .021 set per side...I had to accomodate that difference myself...but it was pretty much " cut and dry"   ...( couldnt resist the pun) ...set works are all fine and dandy BUT as a licensed helicoptor pilot I KNOW that the more moving parts...the more likelyness of some kind of failure...I dont care who makes it....electrical componants as well as moving parts WILL fail...Ive flowen $2 million doller helis and had failure...it aint pretty at 2000' and the whistles start goin off...

[Furby]

AtLast,
Your a heli pilot, huh? Do you have your own? How offten do you fly?

[lamar]

You guys have some good ideas. I feel better now that some problems I have others found ways around. I had a hard time at first trying to hold size on each cut. I like the KISS principle (keep it simple stupid) it works for me,not that IM stupid  :-/ I made a sliding vernere type scale so I can quickly line up a scale(magnetic strips) and make as many cuts then switch over. It works working from inside out too.

[AtLast]

Furby:
Yes I am...no I dont own my own machine..I WISH!!!!...did some flying in New Zealand, used to do the tour thing in Calif and conjunction work with the LA county sheriff....I have been on a waiting list for the Sierra Neveada Search and Rescue team now for a number of years...VERY difficult to get in. I trained in a bell 47G and have flowen a number of differant types...absolutely LOVE it...but I got married..and ..well..you all know how that goes  ..so now when Im running the mill I pretend the levers are the cyclic and collective on a heli.. ..just waiting for the day it actually lifts off      

[Furby]

 

Make sure you get pictures of that!

I have always wanted to fly, but can't even afford lessons for a small plane, let alone a heli. Maybe when I get rich sawing wood!

[Bibbyman]

Bibby, if you'd wear it I'll put a TK hat in the mail today.  Only question is, do you want Camo or Black.  And oh yeah, do you want a new one or one that's already broke in?    

Sure,  make it a new camo.  

Just don't tell Ron and the next time I see him coming at one of the Forsety shows,  I'll put it on.  He won't know what to think.

I'll probably give the break in duty to my youngest son.  For some reason,  he glums onto every new hat that come in the house and wears it until another the next one comes in.

Will,  my hat must have got lost in the mail.

[Bibbyman]

Real nice TK hat Will.  Thanks.  


I wore it to the Wood-Mizer Field Days in Mt. Vernon and got a free ride to the Mt. Vernon Police Department where they gave me a free photo shoot and stuck my fingers in some ink.  

Good thing Arky came by to bust me out.  I's about to miss all the fun.

[WoodChucker]

Bibbyman, don't you work at the US Post Office?  Swear I seen your picture on the wall there!  

R.T.