Renewable Energy bill blocked again

[StorminN]

I was hoping S. 3335 would pass... (or at least move to debate) if this would pass, it would extend the commercial and residential tax credits for solar for eight years, and raise the residential cap to $4,000 (from $2,000) per year.

In the last 50 years, the coal, oil and nuclear industries have received combined subsidies of over 700 BILLION dollars. In the same 50 year period, solar got $4 billion, most of it for NASA and the military to develop and implement solar power for satellites and spacecraft. I say it's time to even the playing field.

Senate Blocks Renewable Energy Tax Credit Bill - Again

Allies of Big Oil in Senate Again Prevent Tax Incentives for Renewable Energy and Advanced Auto Technology

“These defeats are not because of a disagreement over the need to provide incentives for these energy solutions. Driven by the demands of the few, the defeat of these bills ignores the needs of everyone else. The Bush administration and the oil and gas industry’s Congressional allies continue to oppose the repeal of any portion of the $18 billion in tax payer subsidies for oil companies that could be used to pay for renewable technology incentives. This opposition continues even as the oil and gas industry rakes in record profits, with BP yesterday reporting a 28 percent increase in second quarter profits to $9.47 billion. American consumers are being held hostage by the demands of the oil and gas industry to retain their subsidies and to control more public lands."

So find out how your Senators voted, and ask them why...

-Norm.

[Gary_C]

I did some checking on this story and this bill has been pushed back many times and it's current delay is only being reported by "The Wilderness Society" and other groups. For it seems the opposition for this bill claims that repealing the tax credits on domestic oil and gas production at a time when we are calling for INCREASED DOMESTIC PRODUCTION is the wrong message to send.

So it seems this bill is nothing more than political posturing to gain some advantage in the upcoming election. If the Dems do gain control and pass this bill designed to punish domestic oil and gas producers, you can probably expect HIGHER gas and oil prices which will benefit primarily Venezuala.

Certainly the tax incentives contained in the bill are good and necessary but they should not be enacted in such a way as to increase domestic production prices. 

[Fla._Deadheader]

 Seems that Exxon-Mobil posted $18 Billion or so, in this past quarter profits. 

  I have no problem with Business making money, BUT, STOP this Gravy train to OIL PRODUCTION. Stocks fell, because Wall Street expected MORE profits  

[StorminN]

Here it is, deadheader...

Exxon posts record $11.68 billion profit
World's largest publicly traded oil firm makes $1,485.55 a second in the quarter, but misses forecasts.

Gary, I don't think any of these oil companies are hurting, or in need of 18 billion dollars in tax payer subsidies...

Any oil production... domestic or otherwise is still a dead-end street. Sure it will be a stop-gap for now, but the wells will go dry eventually. Sunshine will never cost $4.50 a gallon.

-Norm.

[judochop]

Yes this problem has got out of hand
I hope the prices drop by winter or it'll be
an expensive few months up here filling two
oil tanks at a time to heat the house that last
only for about a month to a month and a half

I'm all ready looking for a wood stove to subsidize
the two furnaces we have.


 Also along the same lines as the oil topic has anyone
seen the movie     "AMERICA: Freedom To Fascism." By Aaron Russo?

The movie's kinda crazy, not sure what to believe anymore.  Its
worth a look if you have a chance to see it.  The first half is hard to get through
its mainly about the lovely people at the IRS, but it ties in some how to big oil
and all that stuff.

Didn't OPEC drop production last year or this year by 1-2%
while knowing that demand was going to increase by 2-3% ?
Pretty sure they did, if so that doesn't help us out all.

[StorminN]

judo,

The wood stove is a good move. I've got to get moving an put some more firewood away. Friends with folks back in Maine say they can't even get firewood there, all the guys that sell it are full up with orders until winter...

-Norm.

[Gary_C]

That is sure a wonderful idea, another Windfall Profits Tax. But then again the last one, enacted in 1980 only returned less than one fourth of the money that was projected, primarily because the oil companies found ways around the tax including moving some things offshore. Plus it has been credited with the beginning of the move to make us dependent on foreign oil supplies that we are so desperately trying to get out from under. If you want to see more, just Google Windfall Profits Tax and see if you can find anything positive that was said about that 1980's tax.

And speaking of Google, if we are really going to start taxing excess profits, shouldnt we start with companies like Google and Microsoft that have made profits of 25% as compared to Exxon at only 10 %?

And do you as businessmen really want a profit police that could declare your profits as excessive and due and payable to the US Treasury?

As the old farmers saying goes, "be careful what you wish for, cause you may not like what you get!"

[Dana]

It is my understanding that the oil companies average 30% profit on each barrel of oil produced. They are investing 2% or less of their profits into renewable energies. That info was on Good Morning America yesterday.
The tv ads showing the oil companies  leading the charge to go green is nothing more than an attempt ease our irritation over high energy prices. Their foot is in the door of alternative energy only to make sure that they control who is going to be allowed in.

[Gary_C]

I just read a news report about the US Congress heading for the exits for five weeks without passing a single energy bill. You can read the full text here: http://apnews.myway.com//article/20080801/D929JM200.html

A couple of things are noteworthy in the story. Even though public opinion does now favor opening up drilling in some areas and even though there are enough votes in favor of more drilling, the congressional leadership has refused to allow a vote cause they think that we are mad enough at the oil companies that they can weather the storm of refusing a vote. So they do nothing while we suffer at the pump.

The second thing of note is they did pass an overly generous veterans benefits bill that also contains a slew of pork projects that were only asked for by congresmen and included such things as readiness centers, parking garages, fitness centers and chapels.

These senators and congresmen are still playing the taxpayers for fools. 

And that goes across party lines!!!!

So your anger and frustration with oil company profits is being used by congress to justify doing nothing. 

[StorminN]

That is sure a wonderful idea, another Windfall Profits Tax. But then again the last one, enacted in 1980 only returned less than one fourth of the money that was projected, primarily because the oil companies found ways around the tax including moving some things offshore. Plus it has been credited with the beginning of the move to make us dependent on foreign oil supplies that we are so desperately trying to get out from under. If you want to see more, just Google Windfall Profits Tax and see if you can find anything positive that was said about that 1980's tax.

And speaking of Google, if we are really going to start taxing excess profits, shouldnt we start with companies like Google and Microsoft that have made profits of 25% as compared to Exxon at only 10 %?

And do you as businessmen really want a profit police that could declare your profits as excessive and due and payable to the US Treasury?

As the old farmers saying goes, "be careful what you wish for, cause you may not like what you get!"

Gary, I'm confused. I never mentioned a Windfall Profits Tax... I started this thread by talking about a bill that would have extended tax subsidies for the solar industry... by shifting tax subsidies from the oil & gas industry, which already has plenty. Aren't this and a windfall tax (tax on their profits) separate issues?

-Norm.

[Gary_C]

Gary, I'm confused. I never mentioned a Windfall Profits Tax... I started this thread by talking about a bill that would have extended tax subsidies for the solar industry... by shifting tax subsidies from the oil & gas industry, which already has plenty. Aren't this and a windfall tax (tax on their profits) separate issues?

-Norm.

Yes, it is confusing as congress has planned it to be. For the bill you mentioned was packaged with what amounts to a tax on the oil companies to pay for the subsidies for the solar industry. If the bill was submitted without what amounts to an additional tax on the oil companies, it probably would have passed.

The reason I compared it to the old windfall profits tax is because that is what it is when you take away a tax credit and make the oil companies pay more taxes because they are making such high dollar profits. What make it even worse is the congress made one of their stupid mistakes just a couple of years ago and gave them these tax breaks just before this run up in crude oil prices. So congress is trying to enact a windfall profits tax by reneging on a past promise without calling it for what it is, a windfall profits tax.

If you look closer at the Exxon numbers you will see exactly what Wall Street saw. Although the magnitude of the dollars is high, $11.68 billion profits on sales of $138 billion is only a rate of return of 8.46% and that is not high at all.

So if congress slaps Exxon with an additional tax, calling it whatever they want, Exxon must just pass the tax on with even higher gas prices or find some way to get around it like moving operations out of the US instead of increasing domestic production.

[Dana]

Here is a link to the Wall Street Journal on Exxon profits. http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/exxon-mobil-net-climbs-record/story.aspx?guid=%7B9008E53D-D6A8-4045-8941-3BFD913282FA%7D

And the rest of the story on profits. Big point being that they are making the big money on company owned oil and not as much on the oil they have to purchase on the world market. I sure do feel sorry for them. ::)http://www.marketwatch.com/News/Story/exxons-upstream-downstream-dilemma/story.aspx?guid=%7B5AC0E3C9%2DF102%2D4D1A%2D939E%2DCBBD35BB0B0F%7D

[Toolman]

According to Wall Street Journal and other media outlets, the oil companies averaged approx. 7% profit. This is way less than Google, Micro Soft and Pharmecutical companies profited this year. What gives government authority to determine what is excessive profit? The gov. fails to inform public that big oil paid over 43billion in taxes also. I'm not hear to support big oil, but lets put all of this in perspective. When you sell billions of gallons of fuel a quarter at 7% profit, of course the profit total will seem excessive. Since when is any industry required or compelled to invest in other areas. It would be wise for big oil to invest in alternatives, since that is the future for energy. But, they are'nt required to. If government wants investment in alternatives, stop with all of the billions of dollars of earmarks(pork barrel) spending and give tax credits to private industry for research in alternatives.  Nancy Pelosi refuses to put drilling bill on the floor for a vote. What a self centered idiot. She now dismisses congress for a 5 wk summer break at a time when most Americans can't afford to take a 1 week break. What a disgraceful tyrant. I bet crude prices go up next week because of this. 5 more weeks of no answers or attempted solutions. INCREDIBLE!!

[Dana]

Toolman, the first link I provided is from the Wall Street Journal's Market Watch. Their second paragraph, last line, reports that their profit was 14%. I'm not sure if you are looking at refinery profits, chemical profits, or crude oil production profits, or overall profits? The 14% is the overall profit that each part of the company brought into Exxon-Mobile.

[Lurcherman]

You know, everyone is mad at the oil companies for making money. But as I've been thinking about it, why should we be?

What are the oil companies doing with the profits? Who benefits from the profits? I'm thinking the shareholders do. One reason Exxon-Mobil has been able to increase profits is because they have been downsizing since they merged with Mobil. My wife used to work for Exxon, then Exxon-Mobile for about 14 years. So, I'd say my wife benefited. She was able to purchase company stock at  80% value as a pre-tax deduction, and also was able to buy discounted stock post-tax.

So, who are the shareholders? Anyone who owns stock, and everyone who works for the oil companies. All those people aren't stuffing it in their mattress, either. I'd bet a good part of the money is going right back into the world economy. Anyone can have a piece of the profits, if they buy some stock in an oil company!

Oil prices are high because there is more demand than supply; and not just because of the USA, but because of demand from China and India - and it's only going to get worse.

I want these tax incentives badly, as I'm sort of holding off on going solar until things get better. I'm also waiting for my neighbor's trees to die, but that's another topic.

[Gary_C]

Their second paragraph, last line, reports that their profit was 14%. I'm not sure if you are looking at refinery profits, chemical profits, or crude oil production profits, or overall profits? The 14% is the overall profit that each part of the company brought into Exxon-Mobile.

I saw that 14% and could not figure out where that came from. I actually calculated Exxon's profit percent at 8.46% based on the stated profit of $11.68 billion on earnings of $138 billion.

Perhaps that 14% could be pre-tax profit and the after tax profit was 7%. At any rate they did report that Exxon's effective tax rate went from 44% to 49% which is nothing to sneeze at.

I also heard late Friday, not too surprisingly just after congress adjourned, that Obama flip floped on this drilling thing and now says he will support opening up some areas for drilling. If he had not waited until congress had adjourned, he would have embarrassed the democratic leadership while they were blocking any hearings or votes. So we see again that congress cares more about politics than the future of the country. 

[Dana]

What do you all think about the proposed Federal gas tax holiday? The proposal has been bounced around at the state level here in Michigan. Fiscal responsibility just seems to be a concept that our politicians can't grasp.

[Fla._Deadheader]

 Vote ALL Congressmen out, CUT most Pork to the Gov't employees. Make them WORK for their money, like the rest of the Peons. WHY does Govt. officials ride around in Govt. Cadillacs and such   What's wrong with Taxis   WHY do they keep raising THEIR wages, when the poor are true workers are getting a pittance   They holler about needing Housing   WHY   THEY chose to get onto the Gravy train. Sell their homestate house, and rent in DC   Why should THAT be so tough   Other transient workers do it

  Let govt people live within THEIR means, not, within taxpayers means.

  VOTE THEM OUT. NOW. Send a message. Change some stoopid laws. GET INVOLVED.

  Wanna know how I REALLY feel 

[beenthere]

Dana
A lousy idea, and a lousy band-aid.

Vote!!

[Toolman]

Deadheader,

I have only one thing to say about that and that is, AMEN BRUTHA!!!!

These side walk sissys in Congress have been riding the gravy train way too long at our expense. It's hard to believe how so many people don't care. I read something interesting last week. Did you know 30% more people voted for American Idol that at the 2004 general election? Nearly 2/3 of eligible voters never even voted? Now a recent poll shows 71% of Americans are disgusted with Congress. Wonder how many of that 71% stayed home at the last election.

[Dana]

Beenthere, Our primary is on Aug 5, and I already voted. Absentee. I agree totally with your assesment on the gas tax "holiday". I would also include the economic stimulus checks in the pork spending.

The other day some Senator for the Mid-Atlantic region was interviewed about all the pork he brings home. He proudly said he gets his constituents their share of the "free money". The reporter noted that outside of Washington that free money is known as tax money.

This just goes along with how out of touch our Congressmen are.

[Toolman]

Can we all at least agree that these buffoons are out of touch with reality?

[StorminN]

I saw this today, and it put things in perspective...

Iraq war spending vs. spending on renewable energy

P.S. (I tried to upload the image, but if I shrink it to 435 pixels tall, it's only 16 pixels wide and unreadable)

-Norm.

[Osric]

Can we all at least agree that these buffoons are out of touch with reality?

Well...YOUR buffoons may be out of touch, but mine (imo) do a pretty good job.

Ohio is represented by Sen Voinovich (R) and Sen. Brown (D) and both work hard to represent the interests of Ohio.  Neither always represents mainstream views and they both have the view of promoting programs for the state they represent over party interests. 

My local Representative, I'm less thrilled with, but he does a far better job than the buffoon he replaced...so I guess we are a step ahead of getting the buffoons out down here.

So go ahead and throw your bums out.  My GOOD representatives will therefore have more experience than your freshmen congressmen, will have better positions in committees and will likely be able to get more money for our state than your youngin's will get.  (said only partially tongue in cheek)