stand conversion

[Splinter]

What is the best method to convert hemlock(32%), red maple(37%) & beech(11%) to red oak/white pine? percentages are basal area.
Soils are good for pine ok for oak.(southern NH)
There are some seed trees around, WP looks like good stock, oak they got most of the good stuff over the years.
Pine needs quite a bit of shade to come out straight, but competition with sprouts will be tough.
Stand is marginally commercial in size (8.6" average diameter) and mildly overstocked at this point. 132BA. 73BA is acceptable growing stock.
Advance regen is all beech/hemlock.

FWIW a neighboring tree farm used a brontosaurus as part of a white pine conversion project this year. Don't have much more detail than that.

Thanks

[woodtroll]

How much oak regen is present?

[Splinter]

darn close to zero.

[SwampDonkey]

Ain't going to work. That beech will kill off any oak from shade and resilience and the hemlock will live for ever (relative term) in under the beech even if it doesn't get released. Your looking at the impossible. I suspect it was a firewood lot and the folks just took a little beech as needed and the nice oak. Easy splitting.   Trouble was, too much shade by just dabbing along for anything but hemlock and beech to prosper.  W. Pine will grow in smaller openings until pole sized and if it's too shaded by then, it'll meet the maker.

[Clark]

I would say that SD has given some good advice (if grim).  Tough to get anything other than tolerant species established under a tolerant species dominated canopy.

You said you have some white pine seed trees in the area.  Depending on what our abilities are you could thin around them 100-200' to try and establish seedlings.  I think you'd be best off bringing it down real low, say 40-60 BA so the canopy won't close up real fast and give the seedlings an opportunity to become poles.

That is my advice, you've got a tough row to hoe.

Clark

[Ron Scott]

Ditto! to what Swamp and Clark stated. Why do you want to convert to oak and white pine? You may be able to nurture some oak and white pine crop trees into the stands diversity through individual species management, but a total stand conversion would be most difficult, time consuming, and costly.

[Splinter]

"Impossible", "grim", "tough row to hoe","ain't gonna work". you guys are a tough crowd.

 Agreed its a tough situation, thats why I am here looking for advice, and it is appreciated.

Forgot to mention this stand is 100 acres uneven aged. There is some diversity in there to work with. So the answer as usual is to grow the best of what you have. That suits me fine.

Crop tree release matches my objectives for the forest. I get to grow the best wood and keep a forest too  .
Any problems with crop tree release perpetuating tolerant species?
Would it be beneficial to kill the tolerant regen in the vicinity of the crop trees at this time or is it too early to make much difference?

Clark, Sounds like a small shelterwood cut around the best seed trees. I like it. Next commercial cut I'll try it out.
 For some reason I never thought of using beech & hemlock as shelter trees, the pictures always show pine 

FWIW The current management plan for this stand calls for 1/4-1 acre patch clearcuts and "free thinnings".
Probably OK technically but a lot of torn up woods for a couple bucks in the pocket. Neither of which I need right now.

[tonich]

Yet a good reason for the "tough crowd" to shout: "Impossible", "grim", "tough row to hoe","ain't gonna work" 

Moreover, it must be pretty hard to replace beech with oaks. I could hardly imagine it. 

Shelterwood cut wouldn't lead to the desired composition. Patch clearcuts would give you beech sprouts back, but with worse quality stems. The only real possibility is a forest fire. 

[SwampDonkey]

Don't give Toni a flame thrower. 

[tonich]

 
Hold on, SwampDonkey! Neither intended to use that stuff, nor to encourage anyone else to do it. 

Generally, I would be a happy owner of a native mixed hemlock, red maple and beech stand. Well, that’s just me! Don’t know, when it comes to sell timber out of it, though.

[Dodgy Loner]

Here's the easiest way to convert your forest to white pine/oak: sell it and buy a white pine/oak forest

Ya don't want too much shade over your white pines.  Competition with similarly-sized trees is the best way to get them to come out straight.  Heavy shading from overhead will mean that more shade tolerant trees (e.g., beech and hemlock) will thrive, while the white pines will struggle along and be overtaken.

[SwampDonkey]

Hold on, SwampDonkey! Neither intended to use that stuff, nor to encourage anyone else to do it. 

Yeah we understand, but makes for sensational reading the day after. 

[Splinter]

Looks like there are some studies showing very good beech control with glyphosate hack n squirt and cut stump. Gotta start somewhere.  HWA will likely tear up the hemlocks, although I will be sad to see some of them go. HWA has been identified in the county.

I think what started me on this stand conversion thing is knowing the hemlocks are on borrowed time, and a beech sprout thicket gives me no joy of heart or wallet.

[tonich]

Yeah we understand, but makes for sensational reading the day after. 

This is a place for having fun too. Only theory and learning is not enough.
Entertaining theory and learning is much better. 



Splinter,
You sound like a brave man. Good luck with the Roundup treatment.
Oh, and photos are always welcome here.

[Splinter]

Sometimes its hard to know the line between bravery and foolishness.

I'm looking hard though, squirt bottle in hand. 

[Splinter]

An update for those that care.
Walked this stand with my friend/logger, and there is enough pine, oak, and other oddball higher value trees to release.
Problem with the forestry plan i paid for is the whole in/out tree thing, if you have a stand of oak poles that are just out its called hemlock. Great for industrial forestry, not so great for my forest.

Nicest surprise was a gun barrel straight and smooth 30" pine. Nice to see a teenager amongst all the babies.

[SwampDonkey]

An update for those that care.

We all do.

Problem with the forestry plan i paid for is the whole in/out tree thing, if you have a stand of oak poles that are just out its called hemlock.

I don't understand and I wonder who taught that style timber inventory. It's either an 'in' tree or it's not tallied at all. With all the different oak species down south I could understand confusing those. But, calling oak a hemlock is an interesting spin for sure.

[ibseeker]

Looks like there are some studies showing very good beech control with glyphosate hack n squirt and cut stump. Gotta start somewhere.  HWA will likely tear up the hemlocks, although I will be sad to see some of them go. HWA has been identified in the county.

Splinter, what studies are you referring to? I'm going to be battling a beech problem after some recent logging and this thread has me wondering what I'm facing. I whacked the heck out of the beech but without hack and squirt, I'm thinking it'll all come back.

[SwampDonkey]

If you have any intention of spacing the second growth, as in pre-commercial thinning,  make sure to knock down any unhealthy beech pole wood. That stuff will inhibit your work and inhibit regeneration of other species. What I have found over the years is landowners leave that stuff behind and expect it to grow into a healthy tree. What happens is our diseased pole wood sized beech turns into 'apple trees', short and wide branching. I see some people end up cutting all the nice healthy regen and leaving that stuff as crop trees because it is more advanced and hard to cut down to the ground. I refuse to space sites with that all through the new regen.

[Splinter]

SD,
No they were not calling a hemlock an oak, that was a little tongue in cheek, expressing some frustration with my ex-forester. There is enough oak/pine in the stand to make crop release worthwhile. I think his cruise results would be different after 20 years of crop tree release.

Thanks for the input, beech control will be part of any harvest and release on the property.

ibseeker,
here are a couple beech control studies.
http://www.dnr.cornell.edu/ext/info/pubs/misc/ne_2006_kochenderfer_001.pdf
http://nrs.fs.fed.us/pubs/jrnl/2001/ne_2001_kochenderfer_001.pdf