Author Topic: Pickens plan (Read 2633 times)

flip · « **on:** July 09, 2008, 07:33:41 am »

It works in theory and on paper but how you gonna get everyone to spend several thousand dollars to convert their vehicles to run on nat. gas

www.pickensplan.com

scsmith42 · « **Reply #1 on:** July 09, 2008, 11:11:15 am »

Flip, typically major changes such as this are phased in over a generation or two, and require at least three simultaneous events to work. 1 - financial incentives (tax breaks for all involved), availability of refueling infrastructure, and availability of CNG automobiles.

Realistically you're looking at a 10 - 20 year phase in, and the concept would be that people would slowly get rid of their current vehicles in exchange for new ones.

flip · « **Reply #2 on:** July 09, 2008, 11:38:01 am »

Yea, he mentioned that it could be done in ten years which seemed AWFULLY ambitious. I know on the auto end of things it would be a huge undertaking but good for my business

Woodcarver · « **Reply #3 on:** July 09, 2008, 11:46:24 am »

I had an acquaintance back in the 70's who converted his pick-up to run on either propane or gas. He had a valve that was accessible from the cab that he could use to switch from one fuel to the other. He said it cost a "couple hundred" to do the conversion. He claimed the truck ran better on propane than it did on gas.

The truck wasn't fuel injected. Maybe fuel injection would complicate the conversion, but I would think converting to LNG would be at least somewhat similar to converting to propane.

The distribution system for LNG would require time and money to establish.

Gary_C · « **Reply #4 on:** July 09, 2008, 12:28:34 pm »

This Pickens Plan is not going to work as he has proposed.

First it depends on you, the taxpayer continuing to subsidize wind power plus you will need to kick in some more subsidies to up grade the maxed out electrical grid system.

Next Pickens assumes that the electrical utilities will give up their contracts with the natural gas pipelines and tear down the facilities that use nat gas so that the car manufacturers can start utilizing that nat gas in auto and trucks. Fat chance that will happen.

Plus those nat gas pipelines are worse monoplies than OPEC and our government has had price controls, unsuccesfully, on nat gas in the past and they have shut down consumers to get them lifted. It's not suprising that Pickens would propose this as the nat gas industry is just another arm of big oil.

And even if all his predictions came true, I doubt it would make much of a dent in the overall imports of crude oil. Might make a small dent in that seventy percent imported oil, but certainly would not stop the drain as he suggests.

But in spite of all the negatives, more wind energy will be good for this country and I am glad to see some domestic investors putting money into harnessing the wind as compared to the foreign investors that are now the major investors. Just don't count on the rest of his BS.

stonebroke · « **Reply #5 on:** July 09, 2008, 03:35:23 pm »

CNG cars are like the chicken or the egg. There are no CNG cars because there are no fueling facilities, but there are no fueling facilities because there are no CNG cars. So How you going to get people off the dime? If we go to Hydrogen in the future we will face the same problem.

Stonebroke

DanG · « **Reply #6 on:** July 09, 2008, 04:21:58 pm »

Forgive me for being skeptical, but my take on it is that Pickens is just trying to feather his own nest a little deeper. He isn't a dummy, and he has an army of engineers at his disposal, so if he was really more interested in the Country's wellbeing instead of his own, he would be advocating flex-fuel vehicles. With today's technology, it would be pretty DanG simple to build an engine that would run on LP, Methane or NG, just like the E85 cars are set up now. The computer would just meter the gas into the engine as needed. In fact, you could probably do it with the current engines by just changing the injectors and reprogramming the computer.

I wonder what would happen if you hooked a propane tank to the fuel rail on an EFI engine?

pineywoods · « **Reply #7 on:** July 09, 2008, 04:37:55 pm »

There may be a sleeper here. Shell claims to have developed a process to make liquid diesel fuel from natural gas. That would solve a lot of problems. I don't put much faith in Boone's scheeme. Storing liquid natural gas is just as big a can of worms as storing hydrogen. One city in Mississippi converted all the city utility trucks to lng. Lasted about a year. Tanks are expensive, compressors are expensive, lots of maintenance problems. Turned out to be more expensive than gasoline. Sure, gasoline has gone up, but so has natural gas. I can just picture a good ole boy "here hole my beer and wachis" as he cracks the valve on 3000 psi tank of lng.

StorminN · « **Reply #8 on:** July 09, 2008, 07:27:29 pm »

I like a plan like this a bit better...

-Norm.

Finnish Electric Car Scheme

------------------------------
Finnish electric scheme

By Nick Gibbs
Green news
17 June 2008 10:30
An organisation in Finland is looking to make an electric car out of the greenest vehicle on the road: yours.
Working on the basis that the most environmentally acceptable car is the one that’s already been built, the Electric Car Now! initiative plans to electrify used cars by replacing the internal combustion engine with a lithium ion battery and electric motor. And all for the cost of a new family car.
Initially the scheme is just looking at converting used Toyota Corollas, but the organisers say it could eventually be adapted to suit most used cars, providing there’s enough space under the bonnet.
Since announcing the idea back in February, the non-profit ECT! reckon they’ve found the 500 customers they need to make the conversions financially viable and are confident of delivering the first electric Corollas by the end of the year.
The Toyota was chosen chiefly because of its ubiquity and its interior space. Jiri Rasanen, director of the Finnish Electric Vehicle Association and a driving force behind the scheme, explains: “In 2008, nowhere in the world is it yet possible for consumers to freely purchase a modern, full-specification, fully electric family car at a reasonable price. This is a situation we intend to correct.”
The price for conversion is reckoned to be about £14,400, minus £400 after they’ve sold off the old engine, starter motor, alternator and other recyclable parts. Blame the cutting-edge lithium-ion batteries for the steep price: they cost £9600 for a pack big enough to give a range of 100 miles.
Both the electric motor and batteries will be designed to fit under the Corolla’s bonnet, while their similar weight cuts out the need to stiffen the suspension. If you’d prefer a 200-mile range, then an estate version of the Corolla will be adapted to fit extra batteries in the boot.
With the prototype still being built, performance figures are only estimated, but the efficiency of the lithium ion batteries has let ECT! claim “the top speed will be a little less than a petrol model, but acceleration will be slightly better”.
The Finnish initiative clicks neatly into a wider Scandinavian plan for more electric motoring. An energy company in Denmark is planning to install a network of 20,000 car recharging stations by 2010, while Sweden is aiming for oil-independence by 2020. Meanwhile Norwegian company Th!nk has finally got the hi-tech, two-seat City on its wheels for a London launch at the end of the year.

-Norm.

Dale Hatfield · « **Reply #9 on:** July 09, 2008, 07:55:43 pm »

We used to have most of our fleet cars vans at school on CNG. 1990 vintage cars vans .
All of the cars had a large tank in the trunk /or under the back seat van. They ran ok on CNG but when ya had o switch over to Pump gas it didnt run as good as it could have been. The CNG wouldnt get ya very far and only place to refuel was back at school. The other problem was the dash switch always got bumped and one tank would be empty and it wouldnt run. Which always prompted at call to fleet manager. A tank the size needed to make most normal work week would fill most of a 15 passenger van.

Don_Papenburg · « **Reply #10 on:** July 09, 2008, 10:02:23 pm »

Storage of NG is not much of a problem . They(Northern Illinois Gas) have a pumping station southwest of Streator Ill. and one South of Mendota,Ill. . what they do is bring in NG off the pipeline and pump it into the limestone dome under the farmland . This does make your water flamable if you have a deepwell. And they tell you that you cannot cap your well in such a way as to capture and use the gas.

LPG works best with a high compression engine ,but will run in a standard engine . LPG burns clean and if you use it all the time you canextend your oil change almost double. LPG is about $2.50 a gallonn without roaduse tax . so it would be a cheap way to drive . I wish I could buy gas for 2.50 right now.

fencerowphil (Phil L.) · « **Reply #11 on:** July 09, 2008, 10:34:24 pm »

If you have been keeping up with the rhetoric (and the missile tests) in Iran
recently, we may have an incentive to get these changes going much faster
than even ole T. Boone thinks.

Are ya' payin' attention? Israel is!

DanG · « **Reply #12 on:** July 09, 2008, 11:10:56 pm »

Quote from: Don_Papenburg on July 09, 2008, 10:02:23 pm

what they do is bring in NG off the pipeline and pump it into the limestone dome under the farmland . This does make your water flamable if you have a deepwell. And they tell you that you cannot cap your well in such a way as to capture and use the gas.

WHAT!!? How can they get away with that? Who is your Senator, anyway....er..ah..well, nevermind.

Gary_C · « **Reply #13 on:** July 10, 2008, 12:38:43 am »

Quote from: fencerowphil (Phil L.) on July 09, 2008, 10:34:24 pm

Are ya' payin' attention? Israel is!

Not really. The threat is infinitely more valuable to the Iranians than the act would ever be. Plus after all this posturing, I strongly suspect our military is fully prepared for the real thing and they never plan for a fair fight.

fencerowphil (Phil L.) · « **Reply #14 on:** July 10, 2008, 01:48:44 pm »

The only thing bettern sawin' wood this mornin was gettin in the are kondishunnin
at Shoney's and havin watermellin for dezert! Startin at 6:30 and finishing at 11:30
was just right today!

Back to Iran...

Israel doing maneuvers. Iran launching test missiles. Gas at $4.07/gal. Crude $140+ per barrell.
Elections approaching. Iran still full bore on nuclear program. Time clock ticking on Bush's term.
Israel watching election probabilities.

Here is the point which I hinted at above:
Regardless of whether, everyone does nothing about Iran,
OR
We do something,
OR
Israel does something,
I betcha that crude will go so high in either the immediate future, or within a year,
that we will be prompted to do something drastic on the alternative
energy front. It won't be political measures/action, it will be "do it or go broke."

Pickens plan? There won't be a plan. Instead, every imaginative mind will be focused on buying/using
anything but Middle East oil.

beenthere · « **Reply #15 on:** July 10, 2008, 01:56:17 pm »

I'm interested in Pickens plan, but also like the approach by AmericanSolutions

http://youtube.com/watch?v=UOpcPfAarjY

fencerowphil
Dat's a long time to sit in Shoney's

DanG · « **Reply #16 on:** July 10, 2008, 02:07:40 pm »

Quote from: fencerowphil (Phil L.) on July 10, 2008, 01:48:44 pm

I betcha that crude will go so high in either the immediate future, or within a year,
that we will be prompted to do something drastic on the alternative
energy front.

It looks to me like we're going on the Dave Ramsey plan, whether we like it or not. Its gonna be rice and beans and beans and rice until we pay off all the stoopid tax.

TexasTimbers · « **Reply #17 on:** July 10, 2008, 02:43:02 pm »

Git tarred o' rass-n-banes Dang, thayz awl-waze gree-uts.

Pickens plan would be good if was holding rice and beans instead of ng plants. It is probably better than anything else but it's hard to ignore the self-interest I agree.

I think the Iran thing is much more serious than what it appears even. Maybe this won't be the trigger but one is coming. That's my belief. One is definately coming, and I don't think these things can be predicted to turn out as "clean and sanitary (not dissing the extreme sacrifices that have been made) as Iraq has so ar, by what is comparatively possible.

Interesting times. Anything can happen. Anything.

Tom · « **Reply #18 on:** July 10, 2008, 02:53:19 pm »

I think that plan needs some modification.

I should be beans and rice and rice and beans until the blooming debt is paid.

You can't tell that to our local Gov. though. Every time I look around, I see roads being paved that need not be, or some "expansion plan" being discussed and put into play.\

The State required the lowering our property taxes so the County increased the assessments. It's all a big game, played by the Bureaucracies, to create a society living on a champagne budget to satisfy champagne tastes when the people furnishing the money have "Beer" paychecks, if they have any paycheck at all.

We talk about the elected officials who think that we are here solely for the use of the government when the entire conglomeration of intertwined government, people and agencies alike, are at fault. Why it's that way, I don't know, but it seems that government employees, even at the bottom of the totem pole, sometimes, forget that they too are part of this society. Those that would complain of taxes, once elected to a taxing authority, will levy new taxes, increase old ones and complain of never having enough money for their department. People who work for the IRS, believe it or not, were once just citizens too. Yet, they will intimidate and punish at every turn. I guess even the Police brutality accusations, even as few instances as exist, are a response to the same kind of mentality.

If being elected promotes one to such elite thinking, I don't want to be an elected official. I like me like I am.

I like Newt.

fencerowphil (Phil L.) · « **Reply #19 on:** July 10, 2008, 02:58:22 pm »

beenthere

Well, the watermellon was THAT good.

Good one , beenthere!

fencerowphil (Phil L.) · « **Reply #20 on:** July 10, 2008, 03:03:20 pm »

Tom

I could swear that I saw some of those people - the ones paying taxes from their "beer paychecks,"
just today in fact. Yep, they had chosen the beer over the gasoline, at least.

... pause, confused pause
$:-\$
Nope, I was wrong. The ones I saw aren't paying the taxes. MY TAXES were paying for THEIR BEER!

fencerowphil (Phil L.) · « **Reply #21 on:** July 10, 2008, 03:05:37 pm »

As far as Pickens' plan, he is certainly positioned well ahead of the game.
It doesn't matter if it is "adopted" by anybody particular or not.

His pickings will not be slim.

Woodcarver · « **Reply #22 on:** July 10, 2008, 08:35:08 pm »

His pickings is in all likelyhood what Pickin's PR campaign is about. He is invested in wind energy as well as natural gas. The subisdy for wind energy wasn't renewed in the 2007 energy bill. The subsidy will expire at the end of this year unless congress can be persuaded to extend it.

fencerowphil (Phil L.) · « **Reply #23 on:** July 10, 2008, 08:44:15 pm »

Georgia's incentives also expire Dec. 31, 2008.

If you have the bucks to not only lobby the congress, I guess you can lobby the entire population, too.
It worked for Al Gore. (Gosh, that means T. Boone may get the Nobel Peace Prize.)

JimMartin9999 · « **Reply #24 on:** July 10, 2008, 11:22:27 pm »

I drove a natural gas car for years , in Germany. No hitches except for a loss of trunk space for the tank.
New York is sitting on enormous reserves of gas but not much is being pumped out. Aynbody know why?

submarinesailor · « **Reply #25 on:** July 11, 2008, 06:35:32 am »

Jim,

The natural gas companies are starting to lease the natural gas bearing lands as we speak. The new drilling and fracturing technology (last 10-12 years) plus the price being higher has made it cost effective to start drilling for this gas. It’s called the Marcellus Shale Gas play. Here is a link to one of the best articles I have read about it.

Bruce

http://geology.com/articles/marcellus-shale.shtml

olyman · « **Reply #26 on:** July 11, 2008, 07:11:13 am »

t boones is only looking out for his own interests--and MONEY--

TexasTimbers · « **Reply #27 on:** July 11, 2008, 11:08:50 am »

yeah t boones is, but is it so bad? don't you ("you" in general not just "you" olyman) think that every energy rescource we have ever had the pleasure/displeasure to use was made available because a rich fatcat or group of them put up their wealth to risk the reward?

There is no way to develop new energy resources except for risk capital to be involved. I know he gets subsidies probably and I wish he didn't, and I know he gets tax breaks and I am glad he does because i don't like a federal progressive income tax to begin ith, but subsidies and tax breaks aside he is risking a large portion of his captial and I am glad he is.

I know that alot of fortunes were made in Texas when the oil boom first began, and I know a whole lot more went bust chasing dry well after dry well. But without those early venure capitalists the oil woul dnever got out of the ground. Surely most of us do not believe we should allow the government to sieze full control of our resources thinking they can feasibly, and without corruption, develop new technologies and resources faster and more efficiently than private enterprise?

I'm not trying to debate whether or not pickens is a "good guy or bad guy", I am looking at him simply as what he is. A business man trying to make more money. If he can get his wind and NG ventures to be a more attractive option than anything else, at least for a stop gap or short term solution until fuel cells and other such highly renewable, environmentally friendly technologies can be brought online then why should it matter to us how many feathers he has in his nest?

I am just trying to get my nest to stay in the tree without falling to the ground, but I don;t mind someone else's nest being built from velvet feathers. More power to them.

It's not really the Boone Pickens of the world that chap my tail it's the Leona Helmsleys of the world. The non-productive elitists who look down their noses at us peons and say we are scum, and yet she enjoys (I think she is gone now not sure) the fruits of the toil we all endure to have created he kind of wonderful lush society we enjoy in this country.

For my money, the Pickens of the world are an absolute necessary ingredient in the American recipe. I can live without the Helmsley types.

SwampDonkey · « **Reply #28 on:** July 11, 2008, 11:26:05 am »

Heard one argument the other day about lowering corporate taxes. It was ok to lower the corporate taxes as long as they didn't loose the subsidies and tax right offs. They want it all I guess.

It's amusing to hear these debates on the radio. They will put such a spin on it that it looks like they are the losers and then they think the tax paying public, such as myself, are too stupid to realize what they are spouting off about.

TexasTimbers · « **Reply #29 on:** July 11, 2008, 11:35:46 am »

Yeah it's "us" against 'them" one way or the other. We know who the "us" is, bu it's the other "thems" that take turns on us. On the one hand we have the never-ending struggle between the classes, and on the other hand we have the never-ending struggle between the peepsand the government.

They are both necessary evils, and I am sure "they" - both the rich and powerful corporations, and the career politicans look at "us" as the necessary evil. Depends on which shore you are wearing.

I am like Tom in that regard. I don't want to ever be in "public service" if it means becoming corrupt and lazy. Not his exact words but i think that is close to what he was saying in a recent thread. Few public servants can resist the temptations of getting too cozy and compfy at the public trough. Few rich folk can resist becoming arrogant, greey, and self-inflated too. And NONE of us peons can resist carrying the load for "them" either. This world is not an easy obstacle course to get through is it.

fencerowphil (Phil L.) · « **Reply #30 on:** July 11, 2008, 05:06:57 pm »

Until 12/31/08 ... ANYONE on the Forum can get the same tax credit
that T. Boone can. Your state may have further "subsidies", tax credits,
or rebates. In fact, there is no ceiling on the tax credit for a commercial
wind or solar project PUT INTO SERVICE BY that date. The credit is
30%! Other incentives are there also.

Put out the bucks and you can take your share, too. Residential credits
are slightly different and have ceilings.

Handy Andy · « **Reply #31 on:** July 16, 2008, 10:55:19 pm »

I like Pickens plan. My nephew works for GM, and he says they have a way to burn any fuel imaginable. Already figured out how to use hydrogen and other availagle fuels. So it's just a matter of going with it. My thinking is that we should not rule out coal as a fuel to make electricity. They can build cleaner coal plants than the ones being used now, just that government doesn't like coal because it is dirty. Too many enviros with too much money. They seem to own the congress, so they won't even consider it. Here in Kansas, the governer and her cohorts are keeping 2 new coal plants from being built, and we have an old dirty one down east that they say can be shut down after they get the 2 new clean ones built. The technology is there for cleaning up the smoke, what is the problem?

News:

Author Topic: Pickens plan (Read 2633 times)