ALGAE POWER? No,... it's not a joke either!

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

FlaD started a thread months ago, but here is  a new take on it.

Think about this quote from a test report from Dec. 2007:


"During a 90 day continual production test, algae was being harvested at an average of one gram (dry weight) per liter. This equates to algae bio mass production of 276 tons of algae per acre per year. Achieving the same biomass production rate with an algal species having 50% lipids (oil) content would therefore deliver approximately 33,000 gallons of algae oil per acre per year."

I would like to pose a question or a few:

• First, with ethanol being very pricey, regardless of the source, why have we heard
            little of this "rest of the story?"  [Where is Paul Harvey's replacement?]
  
• Compared to many other efforts, this process is relatively simple and hazard free,
            so why are we still trying to bust a gut, if you will, in other directions?
  
• Considering how mature this technology is ALREADY,  why are billions of dollars
             headed elsewhere?
  
• If this dried algae-oil were pulverized in a solution of other oils and suspended by
            ultrasonics, it could probably be burned outright by conventional boilers, with
            no complex refining required (my opinion),  so why not push it?
  
• Last of all, in light of this and in light of what the thread on ethanol has revealed,
           does our government have a brain amongst 'em?
  

                                               
                 

[fstedy]

You've hit the nail on the head Phil. This is the kind of thinking we need in Washington. But I think the general population is being ignored in favor of special interests and lobbing efforts. We need somehow to get the attention of our elected officials and remind them who elected them.

[Bill]

Well - to be fair about algae ( not that the oil companies aren't figuring out ways to blast it anyways ) there are still questions like the cost of building a "greenhouse", the cost( location ) for all the water, etc. However, that being said here's one of the most * encouraging * article I've seen about algae.


http://www.biodieselnow.com/forums/t/20635.aspx


There's another one floating around about some trying it for jet fuel - interesting .

So maybe if they would promote something like this we'd have some answers rather than shortages. My thought really is that big oil won't like it and it'll have enough problems to ramp up to large scale.  I really think the best bet would be to keep big oil ( natl and foreign, opec and all ) out of it - I think they don't have any competition so why not let the little guy ( and his coops ) be the competition ( I think DanG's model in the ethanol thread is a great start ). 


"The use of vegetable oils for engine fuels may seem insignificant today. But such oils may become in the course of time as important as the petroleum and coal tar products of the present time." - Rudolph Diesel, 1912

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

Bill
You mention "ramping up to large scale."  Considering the ideas of small companies,
of co-ops, and DanGville operations,  perhaps scale could remain fairly small.

More thoughts on this, but, frankly I want to keep them close right now.

[Ron Wenrich]

I think you guys are missing part of the big picture.  The big picture is that whatever type of fuel is going to be introduced, it has to be by big business.  Why?  Because government can control a few producers, especially when it comes to collecting taxes.  

If we had a bunch of individuals producing energy, whether its solar, wind, hydrogen or ethanol, there's too much of a chance that the government loses control.  Big business will also lose control, and that means all those subsidies will be gone.  

Ethanol is a very easy product to make at home.  Lots of distillers have found that out.  Biodiesel is also easy to produce.  If we had .1% of the households making their own fuel, that would be about 100,000 households that would need to be monitored and taxes collected.  

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

So true, Ron.  Here is an opinion:
               The strong connection between legislators and lobbying interests has become stronger than
                   the link which our congressmen and senators have with real investigation and common sense.

Ah, the "land of the free and the home of the brave!"  As some (DanG and FlaD, for starters)
have pointed out on some of the alternative energy threads which somehow stayed on the
General Board, the American people simply need to be allowed to solve the problem-   
another good reason to like alternative energy. It appears that, by lack of common sense and 
investigation, or by deliberate premeditation, the present government policy is pursuing the wrong 
remedy and pursuing it, as Dang may agree, at the wrong scale.  Neither is likely to change.

Those tax guys, DO, however, seem to be able find my modest household quite well, and able to
assess penalties, when they are miffed, with no problem whatsoever.

Here is an interesting quote from our Thirty-Third President. 
Notice the last sentence in particular.

“The basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teachings we get from Exodus and St. Matthew, from Isaiah and St. Paul. I don't think we emphasize that enough these days. If we don't have a proper fundamental moral background, we will finally end up with a...government which does not believe in rights for anybody except the State!” Harry S. Truman

[Woodcarver]

Not much algae grown in early primary states.........

[Fla._Deadheader]

 Ron's figure about 100,000 households making their own fuel,
MIGHT be a little shy, already. 

  Y'all would be AMAZED how many guys are "flying under the radar", RAT NOW. 

  Just wait a little while longer, and watch this water fuel thing shut down MANY Crude Oil stations. 

  I  know NOTHING. NOTHING 

  Oh yeah, Algae. Does anyone know what Algae sells for as Oil. 

  I know Nothing, NOTHING

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

FlaD

When I dug deep, it turned out that the real costs for ethanol on a big
scale had been carefully considered ten years ago, showing the problems of cost and
energy output, compared to oil.  It may be that someone has already
put some figures to the algae deal.  So far, these activities have been
mostly venture capital.  They don't tend to share as much free info. I am
sure a paying partner could get the low-down.  You gotta couple hundred thou
I could borrow and get in early on this?

I am not saying that some university profs haven't been working on it,
but the ones I have found doing it on a practical scale are private business.

[Fla._Deadheader]

 Over on the Biodiesel now website, there used to be a guy from Tenn., growing Algae and harvesting it. Used to be a friendly guy, until some smarta$$es got to picking on him. Don't know if he still hangs out there or not   He built a swimming pool type rig and covered it for rain protection. Made a decent amout of Oil from the dried Algae.

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

FlaD

Actually a site I found from your thread seems to be one step ahead:
http://www.valcent.net/s/Home.asp

Of course, to really impress the lady of the house, or that future gal,
you must join this:
http://www.nationalalgaeassociation.com/

Seriously, the biodiesel site is full of information, but you can tell from
the sponsor names that all the big players support this National Algae Association.
Valcent, with their Vertigro system and specific algae species patents seems to be
promising.  There is at least one other company using a tube-based growth system,
Diversified Energy Corporation. Their system requires many acres of land, while
Vertigro requires greenhouses.  Both need a source of waste CO² to be
feasible.

[Fla._Deadheader]

 
  Ecogenics Research Center

  Sevierville, Tenn.

  Marc Cardoso

  Maybe someone that lives near this location can do a little legwork

[Bill]

Bill
You mention "ramping up to large scale."  Considering the ideas of small companies,
of co-ops, and DanGville operations,  perhaps scale could remain fairly small.

More thoughts on this, but, frankly I want to keep them close right now.

Now I'm rite fond of DanGville operations. I was kinda thinkin of the "victory gardens" of wwii - just a wee bit before my time. So if we could use Yankee ingenuity then and it worked - why tie biodiesel to big oil - let us little guys do it - maybe even tax free for personal use - like your own vegetable garden - for your car/truck. Helps many folks get by like it did in wwii.

Now about ramping up - I'm thinking there should be some real competition for big oil ( be it natl or foreign ) . IMHO oil ( and natl gas ) has little to no "major" competition on a large scale ( ie electric is supposed to generated 75% by fossil fuel whereas hydro, solar, wind, nuclear together add up to no more than 25% - plus fossil fuel gets cars/trucks )  . I'd like to see that change .

I would like to pull into a coop in DanGville and fill up with biodiesel       soon .

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

That would be good.

A friend here got hooked into an ethanol system of some sort.
The last I heard of it he said that they were making about 15%
of the production that the designer had promised.  He and a few
locals have put their money where their mouths are, as they say.
They have to be commended for the effort, and I hope they get the kinks out.

I think the financing of an algae operation would definitely be far
beyond the level of investment they made.  Even so, as you say,
the combined effort of many locals would be a real competitive force
against the Big Boys of Oil.  They might even be forced to change their
greedy ways, even if it were only for the sake of trying to "starve out"
fledgling competition.  That should be expected, but it would be tough to
do to hundreds of start-ups at one time.

[Fla._Deadheader]

 Open ponds are a good way to grow Algae, in Arizona or So Cal. Down here, possibly. It takes warm water year-round, not freezing water.

  I got too many projects now. 

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

The simplest way is in ponds.  That is very true, FlaD.

Been doin' some research:
 
On the other hand, only the top inch really supports full-tilt growth
which you must have.  You normally want to grow a mono-culture
of algae for your end-product, also.  A pond has a broad mix of algae
species, but unfortunately includes bacteria and viruses which attack the "crop."
Most recent experimentation, whether salt water or fresh water based, has tended
toward mono-culturing.

P.S.   I still have few dollar figures.  Too much of this stuff has
         stayed in the quasi-lab environment.  Each researcher/developer
         seems to have kept it that way in order to be sure of their patent
         rights.  Now it's time for somebody to "put-up or shut-up."  No
         single person has the entire package from what I have seen, but
         all the Big Oil Boys have their projects going, too.

 

[Ron Wenrich]

Since you've brought this up, I've been doing some reading as well.  It seems to be a lot better method of getting fuel than the other methods I've seen.  The sheer volume of material that can be grown on a small area of land is incredible.  15,000 sq miles would be enough to fuel all the US.  Depending on the type of algae, you can also get biodiesel and jet fuel. 

I don't think you can grow this stuff in places like Arizona or Southern California.  The evaporation from open aired ponds would make it pretty bad.  However, there are other ways to go about it.  Greenhouses can be used in the cooler areas.

I've seen several types that were grown in clear plastic tubes.  I have seen them called bioreactors.  The one company was talking about using this in line with scrubbers.  The algae needs CO2, which would come from industrial exhaust.  This brings down CO2 emissions.  I would also assume there would be some tramp heat there as well.  That helps to keep it at growing in cooler climates.

As for water, someone proposed using waste water from treatment plants. 

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

It seems to be the only competition with Thermal Depolymerization -
a process which is already in use in completely functional facilities in Philadelphia
and in Carthage, MO.  Selling product two years ago at a rate of 250,000 gallons
of bio-diesel per month.

...but that would be another thread.

[StorminN]

About six years ago when I first got into the biodiesel thing, I heard about an experimental setup down in Baker, CA (could be Zzyzx Springs?) where they had a coal-fired power plant. I was told they were scrubbing the exhaust of the power plant through shallow man-made ponds, and purposely growing algae in the ponds. They would then harvest the algae and separate the oil through some closed-loop xylol process, distill off the xylol and keep the oil for making biodiesel. Has anyone read about this project?

-Norm.

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

So the xylol dissolves the lipids?