DanGville, USA (or Philville?)

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

I just couldn't help it, DanG.

Since my thoughts had been swirling on the idea of a "retro-town,"
and DanG's had turned to retro-small-scale industry, why not start that
thread after all.

My thoughts had started with these characteristics:

                               The starting point would be a small existing but abandoned down-town area.
                                     Restore that area for business again, similar to what had been.
                               The residential theme would be to restore and rebuild homes in an old style.
                               New construction would keep the look, but go with the best energy efficiency.
                               Instead of cluttered suburban sprawl, a plan for a mix of high-density (tall)
                                    housing would complement the residential theme to preserve green space.
                                    This would outlie the theme-based residential portion.  The green space
                                    would incorporate garden areas, so that produce was only a walk away.
                               The businesses to employ and support this community in all respects would
                                    surround this hub.
                               Unfortunately, this sort of setting would have to be micro-planned up front,
                                    but the participants would choose the nature of their participation in it and
                                    their placement within its area. "Flex-Zones" would exist between the
                                    plots alloted for industry and agriculture. 

Feel free to add to it, to shoot it down, shoot it up, or apply for that grant from Bill Gates.

[DanG]

Not bad Phil, but I'd rather do without the high-rise and the planned greenspaces.  I'd rather see modest, affordable houses on acre or half-acre lots, where kids could romp and folks could have their own garden.  These would be the folks that work at the food and energy center.  IMHO, it would be better not to attract city folk, you know the non-productive pencil pusher types.  They are the ones who gotta have Starbucks and sidewalks and other stuff that drives up costs and takes away people's freedoms.

Quincy Fla would be ideal for that.  We have a nice little downtown of about 16 sq blocks.  Most all of the storefronts are taken up with makeshift offices, art galleries and consignment shops that only last a month or two.  There is a pretty courthouse on the square, and the business district is surrounded by beautiful old homes that are occupied by old folks who will be gone soon.  These would be ideal for the upper management types at the energy center.

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

The more I have thought about it,...

the more I think this idea would be doomed to failure, or would
only be possible in a political system which, overall would be doomed to failure.

China, for example could do this.  For all we know, they may be trying it.  It is certain
           that their bigger objective right now is urbanization, but not a mix or urban rural.
Some sort of facist might be able give it a whirl,
           but who would want that, either.
The ruler of Dubai, Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid Al Maktoum, could do it.  He seems to be an example,
           in many ways, of the "benevolent monarch." Something of this nature would not be in keeping with his sort of
           projects (if you have been paying attention to his projects).
A "zoning board from hell" could do it, but who wants to under that thumb!

So, with so many ways to accomplish this, what's the problem?

American's like freedom.  Their own freedom to choose would prevent this from ever happening. (Here)
After all, we have had the freedom to choose this for a few hundred years.  We seem to have already chosen
a sort of "St. Elsewhere."  The ancient time when peoples of like mind in their thoughts about freedom, but free
within a framework of God-fearing cooperation, took to small ships and came to a new land seems far away.  The
fear of our founding fathers that we would lose much, if we lost our common religious heritage and mind set, has come to pass. 
This is not true of all of us, but true of many of us.

I could quote Washington or Webster as a demonstration of what I mean, but let me offer some others, instead:

Alex de Tocqueville, French historian who visited the U.S. in the early 1800's:
“Upon my arrival in the United States, the religious aspect of the country was the first thing that struck my attention...The Americans combine the notions of Christianity and of liberty so intimately in their minds, that it is impossible to make them conceive the one without the other... Religion in America...must...be regarded as the foremost of the political institutions of that country.... From the earliest settlement of the emigrants, politics and religion contracted an alliance which has never been dissolved.”

John Adams, Second President:
(Speaking of July 4, 1776) - “I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be commemorated, as the day of deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.”
“We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion...Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”

Patrick Henry, Founding Father:
“It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians, not on religions but on the gospel of Jesus Christ! For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.”
“[The Bible] is a book worth more than all the other books that were ever printed.”

John Jay, First Chief Justice of the Supreme Court:
“Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.”

[Fla._Deadheader]

 There are 2 of the "whole Village" DanGville type of communities, in Fl. that I know of.

  One is "Expressions" off I-95 just out of Vero Beach. The other is off 192 on the way to the Orlando Airport from Melbourne. Can't remember that name.

  They have-will have everything that's needed to live, IN the confines of the Village.

  High dollar all around. 

  DEFINITELY out of Dan's league. 

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

FlaD

I have two friends who live in one of the self-contained towns.  Their area
is designed to serve as a complement to motor homes.  It's your "space dock"
so to speak.  Neither has a butcher shop, baker or candlestick maker, however.
Well, maybe small scale baker?  Never been to them.  This one was built as
a retirement community I think.

The friends?  One a retired surgeon.  The other a retired plant manager.
Out of my budget, too.

[Tom]

I've got an Opinion.

It will never work as there is always some overlord, whether it be an individual or committee, telling the occupants how to lead their lives, what they are allowed to do with their things and charging them for the control.

The first time someone tries to sell lumber out of one of the empty stores, next door to the pottery and the curtain factory, there would be harsh rules implemented, permits installed, and fines assessed, until the offending party left. 

The same would go for the citizen who wanted to grow a vegetable garden in his front yard next door to a house with a mowed grass yard and rose garden, or paint his door a different color than any other on the block, or, God forbid, have children.  Soon the 'Controlling' body would have him removed.  

Since the remnants of the town would not be self supporting, the old delapidated, rejuvinated buildings would return to their previous state.  And, since nobody liked anybody anymore, the town would become empty, until some enterprising, young fellow decided to try "Freedom" again.

Success isn't about the organization, it's about the individuals.

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

Yep, Tom, even ficticious "Walnut Grove" of Little House on the Prairie had that same problem.

[Furby]

I can't seem to find anything online, but I was told a local fellow was arrested the other day, for not mowing his grass while living in a higher end sub division.

[Tom]

You don't even  have to live in a higher end subdivision in Jacksonville to be awarded fines for not fitting the neighborhood yard cop's  idea of neatness.  You can get ticketed for not putting up your lawnmower, leaving kids toys in the yard, having a couch on your open front porch, grass too long, hedges not trimmed frequently enough, working on a 2nd car in your driveway, etc.  These are appointed neighborhood snoops who are given a ticket book to write citations where laws don't exist or are dubious.  They force people to build fences, and arrange their lifestyle much the same as a neighborhood committee in a gated community would do.  How dare you live in "their" town.

[DanG]

Now wait just a cottonpickin' minute!  If you're gonna name this thing after me, I'm gonna have some little bit of sayso about the rules.  Just say I was the founder of this operation, and as such I would be the first CEO and Chairman of the Neighborhood Council.  What I envision is a CO-OP of likeminded individuals who are interested in doing something FOR their fellow man and for our Country.  That would be the founding premise.  Now what would be to stop the co-op from purchasing a block of land at agricultural prices, then dividing it into lots and reselling the lots to employees at the per acre purchase price?  You can get acreage tracts around here for $4000/acre, so a half-acre lot would cost $2k...available to employees only.  Of course there would be rules in this neighborhood, just like any other except these rules would be designed to keep out the urban riff-raff.  Rules like, dogs are not required to be fenced in, but if a neighbor's dog kills your chicken, you can shoot him.  There will be no paved street or sidewalks.  Boys over the age of 8 shall be required to carry a pocketknife.  There shall be no restrictions on the size, type or style of housing.(You can build a million dollar mansion if you want, but it may be next to a singlewide mobile home).  Businesses will be allowed, but they must be locally owned and operated.  Chain stores or franchises will not be allowed.  Landowners will be encouraged to build their own houses, and the Co-op will provide experienced personell to assist and teach them.  Low cost rental of Co-op owned equipment will be available.  There will be no boom-boxes.  Property lines will be denoted by rows of fruit trees and berry bushes.  Fruit that falls on an owner's land belongs to him, and fruit that falls on the road right of way is free for the taking.  Electric power will be provided from the Co-op's generators at cost + maintenance expenses.

On the Business side of things:  The Co-op shall neither seek nor accept any grant or subsidy from any Government agency.  We will not buy materials from commodity marketers.  Material will be purchased directly from Co-op member farmers at a fair market price.  The Co-op will purchase all of a member's crop that he wishes to sell, at any time he wishes to sell it, at that day's market price.  The Co-op will purchase materials from non-member farmers on an as-needed basis, by private treaty only.  The Co-op will not deal in "futures."
The Co-op's food products will be sold to member outlets at cost+profit.  Excess product will be offered on the open market to RETAILERS ONLY at a cost+more profit.  All products offered to retailers will be premarked, where possible, with a retail price that reflects a fair profit for the retailer.  Energy products will be sold to member outlets on a cost+ basis.  Electricity not used by the Co-op, members, and employee village will be sold to the local REA power grid at the customary rate.

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

Now wait just a cottonpickin' minute!  If you're gonna name this thing after me, I'm gonna have some little bit of sayso about the rules.  Just say I was the founder of this operation, and as such I would be the first CEO and Chairman of the Neighborhood Council.  What I envision is a CO-OP of likeminded individuals who are interested in doing something FOR their fellow man and for our Country.  That would be the founding premise. 

I wondered when our Benevolent Monarch would chime in.  Indeed, the challenge is to find those
"likeminded individuals" just as you describe them.  America's first were those who signed the
Mayflower Compact.

The solution to that challenge is simple:     DanG-Harmony.Com

                                    "Here at DangHarmony we assure you of the proper mix
                                     of citizenry for a life of security, reward and of meaningful
                                     interdependence, which is the root of a healthy attitude
                                     toward life.  A simple analysis of 1,032 parameters of your
                                     personality assures your compatibility with the goals of
                                     DangVille, USA.  Please be aware that we expect rejection
                                              of 99.44% of applicants, so don't be upset if you are among
                                              that small portion who do not seem compatible with our goals."

Of course, even the high purity level (established decades ago by the Ivory Soap brand) would leave
0.56% of all Americans as  potential members.  Out of a population of 300 million, that totals to
1,680,000 individuals who would qualify.  Since the community would not be so large (having
Benevolently nixed the highrises already), we could get even more picky and add to those 1,032
points originally included in the selection parameters.

Now weez gettin' somewhere!

[Don P]

We almost moved to something similar a quarter century ago. There was a woodshop there seeking employees, had a solar kiln, we went and helped build kiln 2. They had a sale building up and were selling wood out of that. The shop made cabinets and they also did carpentry work in the outside community. I stepped in and was right at home with the shop and the guys in there. There was a group on the farm that did the ag work. They were off grid except for the shop area.
We hung out and were enjoying our stay until a few things started looming, there was some tension and we realized a large number of marriages had changed partners within the community. That was a biiig "say what!" We are comfortably solid and stayed for a monthly business meeting. I thought they were going to draw blood over issues that I would have shrugged off. We left "chicken leg commune" as fast as our little pinto would carry us and spent another few years in town saving to buy a piece of land that was a fraction of the 500 acres they had. But I say what goes here. I think we're just too DanG independent to get along with anyone other than ourselves long term without some real strong laws no matter how idealistic it starts. If you do start a community have a graceful dissolution plan in place before you start.

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

I gather, Don P, that you realized that my last reply was tongue-in-cheek.

[Don P]

Didn't that apply to the whole thread
I type slow, never read yours till I was ready to post    

[Fla._Deadheader]

 That Harmony name, is the second Commune I  was referring to, out toward the Airport.

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

Humor tinged with sadness, I suppose - as is most comedy.

Dreams of Utopia persist.

They say that there will one day be a King whom all will recognize
willingly as such.  According to prophecies concerning Him and about that time, even
His reign will be disrupted by the rebellious nature of mankind.  Then, given no
choice as the Ultimate Benevolent Monarch, He will have to judge those individuals.

Of course, this may all be legend and myth.

[DanG]

I started that little soliloquy with tongue firmly in cheek, but got a little carried away with a fit of idealism.

Of course, it would be next to impossible to bring Harmony Food and Energy Cooperative into being in the current socio-economic climate, but that climate is changing much faster than that other climate they're always talking about.  Right now, this Country is being controlled by a rag-tag collection of nitwits, thieves, idealogues and control freaks, all placed into power by suckers.  These suckers "earn" their living by sitting in ivory towers, amassing large quantities of funny-money, by shuffling the funny-money of other suckers, leaving the meager actual production of goods to the working poor, or "serfs" if you will.  Now however, circumstances may cause an abrupt and uncomfortable change in the way things are being done.  The costs of food and energy are rising astronomically, and the suckers are unable to shuffle the dwindling supply of funny-money fast enough.  The funny-money mills are getting low on feedstocks and are beginning to shut down, leaving some of the suckers to wonder if their expected "wealth entitlement" may have been a pipe dream.  Their personal stashes of funny-money are disappearing at an alarming rate, and most are struggling to keep their heavily mortgaged McMansions from being foreclosed upon.  Their expensive fancy cars will sit in their driveways until GMAC sends a serf to pick them up, in a futile effort to cling to a remnant of their own solvency.  At some point, the suckers will run completely out of funny-money, and will be unable to transport themselves to the polls to vote in the nitwits and ideologues.  The thieves will have become latter-day suckers who will eventually suffer the same fate described above, and the control freaks will have nothing to control, so they will just wither and die.  The final victim of the above "tragedy" will be NIMBY.  Suddenly, the smell of a refinery or distillery will not be so offensive, and the infinitesimal risk of a nearby nuclear power plant won't be quite so scary after all.  The SUVs and BMWs will be beat into plowshares and will yield to the hands of all the hardworking FORMER serfs who have been cutting the sucker's grass and blowing his valuable leaves into the gutter.

I suppose it is too late for the above scenario to have much effect on the upcoming election, but in a mere two years, many thousands of local, state and national office holders will come up for re-election, retire, or have their term limits expire.  Two years is plenty of time for the above scenario to play out, and we could be on the road to justification of our status as the World's role model.

[Radar67]

DanG, we sure do think alike...

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

As I read DanG's last post, I was hearing it in a certain voice that I couldn't identify.
(Since I  ner met DanG, con't a bin hizzun.)

Thanks, Stew, 'cuz it had to be you!

The journey from idyllic bliss to morose cynicism sure was a short ride.

[DanG]

Morose cynicism?   Lighthearted cynicism perhaps, but certainly not morose.  I saw it more as the celebration of the fulfillment of a prophesy.  The good guys are gonna win!!

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

Okay, DanG, I will not think about the French Revolution any more.
 
What Don P said about his youthful experiment with an un-Harmonious "co-op" makes one
see how hard it would actually be.  The ones which come closest have very strong
moral commitment, but they also have a cultural and psychological enforcement
system as well.  Sadly, even a Christian-morals-based group can go awry (as we
recently saw on the media) by distorting the truth of it.

FlaD has me curious about the Harmony and Expressions communities.  I still betcha the
don't allow any bad smells there, however.

[Don P]

Good old erewhon (nowhere)

I'm not sure there are any winners among the people in a collapse. My folks worked in the former soviet republic several times after their collapse. Infrastructure fails, water, sewer, power,bridges, roads. Services fail, cops become corrupt, affluent school kids require private tutoring to pass, even the olympic athletes were running a protection racket. One of my parents hosts was an ingenious survivor. He had dug a well, had a privy, garden, pigs, made his own wine, every square foot was put to use. All on about 1/2 acre in town. The neighbors were doing similar. Dad noticed the well was replenished after every rain  . He would buy bread each day, have a hunk and hang the bag on his way, it was always gone on his return.

Would I survive, most likely, would I be better off, very doubtful.

I had to see... how about that, they made it 
http://communities.ic.org/94/3894.php

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

Nope, sorry, there will be no smelly type businesses in Harmony, Florida.
It turns out to be just a golf community with an elementary school within it.
No businesses, not even stores.  High school is just outside the boundary.

Don P,
It was interesting to see the condensed account of Shannon Farms and
Heartwood Design.

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

It turns out that there are still a lot of dreamers, responding to their intimations
with "intentional communities."  The following is the descriptive paragraph used
on the website for Communities Magazine:

"Since 1972, the primary resource for information, issues, and ideas about intentional communities in North America - from urban co-ops to cohousing groups to ecovillages to rural communes. The 80-page quarterly is focusing increasingly on cohousing communities and aspiring ecovillages, as those are two of the fastest-growing kinds of communities in North America today. Articles and columns cover practical "how-to" issues of community living as well as personal stories about forming new communities, decision-making, conflict resolution, raising children in community, sustainability, and much more."

[DanG]

There were a lot of those "intentional communities" in the 70's that were just leftover "flower children" from the 60's that couldn't let go of their utopian dreams.  They just wanted to keep on tiptoein' through the tulips and run around nekkid, instead of really making a life for themselves.  Those folks have mostly gone in other directions, whether it be moving on to a real life(growing up), OD'd on drugs, or out there panhandling and claiming to be a Vietnam Vet.  There were(are) others that survived by evolving into neighborhoods where good things have happened.  The one where many of my friends live has not only produced many wonderful, broadminded and productive offspring, it has saved one of the most precious biological resources in our Country, the Torreyan Ravines, from extinction by protecting it from developers. 

My idea however, is not for an "intentional community" but for an intentional opportunity.  This would be a haven for good ol' hard working, freedom loving, solid American Citizens.  The kind who aren't afraid to bend their back and get their hands dirty, and earn an honest living for their families.  This town, or community, or neighborhood, or whatever you want to call it, that I have in mind is not a gathering of winners, but a group of people who refused to lose.

[Don P]

Those folks appear to have worked through their problems and have made their community work, for over 30 years. I do suspect they have fine children. They didn't sit on a pile of aluminum cans and complain. Those solid Americans sweated, completed their off grid homes, built businesses and have obviously made something. It is mighty hard for me to judge them harshly and dismiss success. I however am obviously not as keen judge of my fellow man.

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

My idea however, is not for an "intentional community" but for an intentional opportunity.

You are so deep, Dang, Deeeeeep!
The problem with living together can be the difference between those two.
The nature of the intention soon meets the nature of the opportunity.
That nexus may engender, stimulate, and nourish community, or may
undermine it.  Harnessing similar intentions directed toward the same perceived
opportunity, now that is what real partnership seeks - a rare event.

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

Well, what do you know?!
 
This link shows about 27 parameters (if I counted correctly) on a given "Community."
We only have to come up with 1,005 more to complete the DanG-Harmony.com questionaire!
 
Just a sample:          http://directory.ic.org/21616/naturally_home
(One of over 700
  portfolios available)

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

I can't resist the themes underlying some of the "intentional communities" which
people are trying to form.  Some of the most unusual ones state their status as:
"forming."   Take at look at these and I think you may say:  "Forming?  I doubt it."

CelestialSeedings

      "It is important to understand that the reason why some feel a strong inner urge to gather
       and protect each other is because between 2012-2014 the earth will experience the gravity of "NIBIRU" The passing
       of this planet near earth will cause Massive Earthquakes, Volcanoes, Tidal waves etc. Unless you know what type of
       structures to Build and Where to build them you will not survive!!!
       All Governments of the earth know this Truth."


Conceivia

      "This is an experimental society based on the model of society used by ants. To try to
       achieve the same highly advanced decision making system which allows an insect intelligence to do agriculture, both
       crops and livestock, and build complex structures extremely fast."


  [Now let's see.  Ants.   Insects completely governed by instinct attached to rigid roles and classes;
                          Guided by phermones within behaviors designed into their DNA.  Yep, that's a model of freedom!]

[Don P]

I don't care who you are, that's funny 

[DanG]

Boy, that's inspiring.  Kinda makes ya wanta chop off yer manizzles, wrap up in a purple blanket, and go chase a comet...or join the Democrat Party.

[Don P]

With over 700 choices, I'm sure we can find one where we can each shoot our tax collector and publicly fast at least twice each week    

[OneWithWood]

Boy, that's inspiring.  Kinda makes ya wanta chop off yer manizzles, wrap up in a purple blanket, and go chase a comet...or join the Democrat Party.

See, there are good reasons to join the democratic party. 

[DanG]

I can see that there will be differences between DanGville and Philville.  I would just hire my workers like any other company, then offer them the chance to establish a residence nearby.  They wouldn't have to take advantage of it if they'd rather live elsewhere.  The "village" wouldn't be anything like a commune, it would just be a neighborhood where you could be buddies with your neighbor or not.  Of course, there would have to be some restrictions to keep employees from just buying and building on the cheap and selling on the open market for a huge profit.  I had in mind restricting the purchases to "one per customer" or something like that.  The only way an employee could get a second lot would be to sell to another employee.  He could however, purchase an additional contiguous lot to expand his space, or sell to another employee in order to buy a bigger lot.  If he sold to an outsider, which would be allowed, he couldn't buy another place from the company.  Like most neighborhoods these days, there would be a list of covenants and bylaws, which I already posted.  On the phone the other day, Tom suggested a simpler set of rules:

1. There are no rules.
2. See rule #1.

   As Utopian as that sounds, total anarchy just plain doesn't work if there is more than one person involved.

The crux of this whole fantasy is that the Co-op, or Company would be benevolent to its employees, which would foster loyalty from the employees toward the Co-op.  Also, the employees would be members of the Co-op, and share in whatever profits there might be, so even more loyalty(and hard work) are encouraged.  Otherwise, the Co-op would be run just like any other business.  Workers would be hired or fired just like elsewhere.  Some would leave for whatever reason, but I think the turnover rate would be very low.  They wouldn't be captives, or owe their souls to the Company Store, like pore ol' Tennessee Ernie did.  If something should cause the Co-op to go under, they will have had benefit of good employment for however long it lasted, and as members, would get a share when the assets were liquidated.  Their land would belong to them, because it would have been sold to them at cost, not "given" or leased to them by the Co-op.  If they had borrowed from the Co-op to get it, they would still owe for it.

I should say here, that none of the aforementioned ideas are really mine.  I just borrowed them from different places and put them all together.  Much of it comes simply from the way things were done in the past, when companies took care of their employees because they knew that their workers were their biggest asset.  The plan I have outlined here merely brings that concept back into play, and adds the benefits of the co-op concept to it.  Part of it comes from our local Rural Electric Co-op, which I am a member of by virtue of being a customer.  As a member, I am kept informed of their status as a business, and I get a little check as my share of the profits every year.  As a long-time member, that little check is now equivilent to about a month and a half of my power bill.  They are able to do that while providing the highest level of service I've ever seen, and charging the lowest rates anywhere around here.  Their employees are well equipped, well trained, and well paid, along with having an excellent benefits package.  It is mostly because of them that I know the plan I have outlined could be made to work.  Oh yeah, one other thing about the Electric Co-op, they don't have no talking machine to answer the phone.  They got people, 24/7, and those people are right here in the service area, not in India.  They only respond in Spanish if you speak Spanish to them, too.

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

Excuse my absence, please.  I actually had some sawing to do, ( Imagine that!)
and some peenanner work to do, too, for which I am even more thankful.  That
way, after I sweat completely through every stitch on me, I can come home for
a refreshing shower and go tune in AIR CONDITIONED COMFORT!   AAAAAAHhhh!

Perhaps we are imagining quite different ideas: 
                                                                                 "The Benevolent Fiefdom of DanGville"
                                                                                                          versus
                                                                                "The Jetson's-meet-Walton's-Mountain"
                                                                 [Which would be a non-co-opted combination of families,
                                                      linked by a commitment to a pre-planned community/workspace design.]

But, not to worry,  many fiefdoms would be required to make PhilVille work.

You have the advantage, however:  You only need $2 million.  I still need that $200 million.