Using ATVs for logging

[ex-Engineer Wannabe]

Howdy all,

We own a large parcel of forest property in the Berkshires and are currently researching equipment to retrieve sawlogs in remote locations (at the bottom of relatively steep grades). The use of an ATV & fetching/forwarding arch has been highly recommended for this purpose, but I'm sure it's obvious that one can get themselves into a "2nd mortgage project" very quickly this way.

Given the grades and distance we have to cover on our property, I believe the ATV is inevitable, so I guess it comes down to soliciting practical information from folks who have used their ATVs to fetch/skid/forward sawlogs from remote locations ...

Given the recreational nature of ATVs, I realize that this system will have certain limitations (based on ATV frame strength alone). Nevertheless, I'm hoping that the ATV loggers out there might suggest a good ATV to us?

In addition, I'd like to read some thoughts about fetching/skidding/forwarding arches.  The LogRite/Future Forestry Products fetching arch looks like an outstanding product, but you certainly pay for the high quality you get. Does anyone know of a more afforable alternative out there?  At the end of the day, we don't really need the beautiful paint and graphics -- we need the functionality. Therefore, I'd even consider having an arch fabricated if anyone knows of someone doing this kind of thing.

Thanks for your time ...

[Woodhog]

I use an ATV in the woods a lot, since the price of fuel went so high and the price of logs so low.
They dont burn a lot of fuel and you can do some work with them.

I would recommend an ARCTIC CAT 500 Manual, they have  12 inches of clearance of which you need all you can obtain. Also a very strong engine, and a strongly built trailer hitch with a normal receiver size like a 1/2 ton truck.

The stock tires are no good for anything, make a deal for something like Mudbugs, they look like a minature Agricultural tractor tire tread.

If you dont want to move a lot of wood quickly they are quite usefull. You have to take your time as you are always overtaxing the machine for what it was built for.

Be prepared for a rough sort of out of control slow ride  at timescompared to other methods

I have never used an arch with mine but that is the only way I would try to haul a log with one, dont try to skid or drag with them, too dangerous and it turns into sort of a circus quite quickly as you try to destroy the machine and yourself.

You will find people who do this but compared to a small 4WD farm tractor with a winch they are just a joke.

I would not use a log loader and trailer combination, I have a bogie wheel trailer  no loader and it gives the machine quite a workout with a small load of firewood on it.

You have to plan your trails very carefully if you are on bad bottom with rocks etc, it does not take much to stop them with a load on.

The specs tell the tale, if you look at the weight spec for down pressure on the hitch you will see around 35 pounds...

Another bad point compared to a small tractor , you cannot drive them on the road to the job site.

[Sawyerfortyish]

At the cost of a Atv and the limitations mentioned. I would think a old 8n ford would be about the same price as a used atv and be a better workhorse and don't use much gas to do there work. But beware there are dangers. I have logged with a tractor a 70hp tractor. I had a dead tree along the skid trail fall accross the seat of the tractor and knocked me off it. I wasn't hurt to bad just some bumps it could have been much worse. After that my only choice for skidding timber is a skidder.

[Night Raider]

I use a Suzuki Vinson 500 manual.  When I was looking at machines I had this same purpose in mind (it's easier yo justify it as a work machine then recreation).  Here were the requirments I decided were important, 4WD (obviously), solid back axel (very important if you're pulling heavy trailers), low range, manual transmission and winch.  That narrows it down quite a bit, but many machines are just made for trail riding so choose carefully.
good luck

[beenthere]

........ retrieve sawlogs in remote locations (at the bottom of relatively steep grades). ......

Be aware that any loss of power on an incline (going up or down) with a log hanging in an arch, will give you plenty to think about while trying to hold it on that hill. One will wish for some brakes in that arch, or a way to drop the log to the ground easily.

Given the grades and distance we have to cover on our property, I believe the ATV is inevitable, so I guess it comes down to soliciting practical information from folks who have used their ATVs to fetch/skid/forward sawlogs from remote locations ...

I have an ATV and a woods to log. I wouldn't consider using it when I have a 33hp utility compact tractor with 3pt and loader/forks to move logs.  If it were easier with the ATV, that is what I would use. The ATV is a 500 low range and 4wd.

......
In addition, I'd like to read some thoughts about fetching/skidding/forwarding arches.  The LogRite/Future Forestry Products fetching arch looks like an outstanding product, but you certainly pay for the high quality you get. Does anyone know of a more afforable alternative out there?  At the end of the day, we don't really need the beautiful paint and graphics -- we need the functionality. Therefore, I'd even consider having an arch fabricated if anyone knows of someone doing this kind of thing.
......

LogRite is a Forum sponsor, and does make good equipment. You will get what you pay for...nice paint or not, it's what is underneath the paint that counts. As for making your own, go for it. It could be a fun project, and educational too.   

[John Mc]

If low budget is your goal, and you're not particularly worried about efficiency, this portable capstan winch on eBay works, but is very slow:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360064392435
This will get the logs to your trails, but you'll till need some way of carting them off from there (pickup truck & trailer or?)

If you are planning on spending for a new ATV, and this is your only use for it, I'd strongly second the recommendation that you look at a used Compact tractor. The modern 4WD Compact tractors can get expensive, even though used. Some of the older workhorses like an old Ford 8N can be had around here for a few thousand dollars, and they are simple to maintain. Add a Farmi 351 logging winch or something similar (Uniforest 35E, or various other manufacturers) for another few thousand new (tough to find used), and you've got a nice set up for doing some small-scale logging. (You'll want to find someone who knows what they are doing to help get you started if you haven't done anything like this before.)

Tractors are made to handle heavier loads. It's not just a matter of whether you can get the load moving, but also, can you stop it. If you plan on doing any other work on the property, like clearing or brush-hogging trails and the like, you'll need a tractor anyway.

[RSteiner]

My son has the ATV and I have the 30 hp. compact tractor which replaced a Ford 8N along with a Farmi winch.  The arch I have I built 20 years ago to handle 24" diameter logs up to 16' long.

The ATV, which is a mid-size Polaris, handles the arch quite well except when the slopes get a little steep.  A good size log on the arch can out weigh the ATV and become quite a force when going down hill in the woods.  The arch I built holds the whole log off the ground for transportation.  Going down hill one could use the arch to hold just the front of the log off the ground and use the back of the log as a friction brake.  The smaller ATV's are not designed to handle a pulling load all day long we have had to repair the transfer gearbox once.

The Ford 8N with a 3 point hitch winch is a decent piece of equipment for light logging.  The 8N is a very stable tractor in the woods and they will run all day on 5 gallons of fuel.  My 8N needed brakes so I would make sure any steep slope I went down I was dragging something behind to slow the decent.  I had a front end loader on it which was handy for pushing logs or tops into a pile on the landing.  One word of caution using a farm tractor or ATV in the woods there is no protection for the operator under or over the machine.  Things from below can come up to haunt you and thinks from above can come down on you.

The 30 hp 4wd compact tractor with the Farmi winch works okay in the woods.  You have to be a little more careful as the compact tractors are not as stable as the utility tractors are, the wider the wheel base in the back the better things feel.  Having 4wd is helpful and the lower gear ranges are nice for slow moving in the woods up and down slopes. 

However, I think a 50+ hp tractor would give you more weight and stability in the woods.  The bottom line is what can you afford to spend on equipment.  The one thing that I think I would like to have make it easier and more efficient is a fowarding trailer, the one with a hydraulic loader arm on it. 

Randy

[Ed]

If you are considering an atv for your logging, take a seroius look at a Polaris Sportsman 6x6. Yup, thats right, 6 wheel drive. Only way to go when you need serious traction and load capability. Plenty of room for all your gear or to haul wood with. Put a winch on the front for self recovery or moving logs.
Mine is a 1999 model, I've used it in the woods ever since I bought it. It can get around in tighter areas than a tractor ever thought of and go thru more mud or snow than a 4x4 atv.

At the risk of upsetting people..........Several things to consider with an old 8N or similar tractor. You do need to be mechanically inclined and not mind tinkering with something. While a decent piece of equipment, they are OLD! Most have slopped out steering and loose 3 point links/pivots. Many have been converted to 12 volt electrical, done correctly your ok, done wrong, you have a headache. Brakes are another thing that gets neglected. Rear rims can be in bad shape from years of leaky innertubes that are filled with chloride.
You see them for sale all the time, someone buys it, does a lipstick job on it and sells it at a profit.
Having spent much of my life in the seat of a Ford 850, I'll pass on the old tractor.

Ed

 

[Dom]

I have to agree with Ed about the Ford 8N (or older tractors for that matter). You have to be able to fix it yourself, and be good at fixing things to run an old tractor. I usually go by the mentality that if the farmer decides to sell equipment, its done. Farmers in my area will change parts, customize and modify machines to get the most life they can out of the machines/parts.

If you can find an old unmolested tractor, it will do more work then a ATV. A small newer compact tractor would be my personal choice. They can do more work then a ATV, and are generally bought by hobby farmers or people with bigger then average properties, therefore are not run hard.

I use my ATV (polaris 400 2wd) to carry my chain saw to go travel the woods. When I'm ready to haul the wood out, I go with a 40HP 4WD John Deere. I don't do much work, mostly clearing of brushes to maintain the land.

My 2 cents (CAD )

[Jeff]

I was going to get a tractor when we got our property, but after walking the property with me, our resident Forestry Forum tractor guru, corley5, convinced me to get a quad and he was right. I would have a tractor stuck every time I use it but get around fine with the bike, even when its wet. When its dry, you dont leave a trace of where you have been. when its wet, a quad is the only answer.

 

[Mooseherder]

I need an arch real bad! 

[zackman1801]

so do you guys think that if ATVs could pull logs alright that an old International scout with some mud tires could do the job. my uncles got one for sale for about $100 and it might be just what i need.

[Ironwood]

Dont even think about an 8N in woods IF they are hilly, been there done that.

 You can move a TON of weight w/ an arch and ATV/UTV. (Logrites ARE nicely made).  I would recommend having one built w/ a hydraulic surge brake. I have wanted to do this but have not moved on it yet. It is an expensive but very safe way to do it.






         Ironwood

[Jeff]

so do you guys think that if ATVs could pull logs alright that an old International scout with some mud tires could do the job. my uncles got one for sale for about $100 and it might be just what i need.

If a new ford will do it, and old scout will do it better.

http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,14060.msg197869.html#msg197869

[Maineloggerkid]

I currently use a new john deere and winch, but i have spent time doing it with a ford 8N, international cub, and a polaris big boss 6x6. 

Out of the latter three, I think that the 8n has the most potential,, due to weight, and the 3pth. But, as Iron wood said, don't go near hills. It seems that he has felt the rath of the tipsy tractor before. I tried it witha cub for a while, but I flipped that over backwards, narrowly missed being crushed.

The polaris is definetly the safest option. THe also make very nice work platforms, due to the size, power to weight, and the fact that you can store stuff in the bed. I have a 1994 model, and it still goes strong. My uncle used to use it every day to get wood for his sawmill. THen, I used it briefly. It does the job quite well, if you plan everything out.

[chuck172]

I have to say the "8N" is one of Gods greatest inventions.

[John Mc]

You can move a TON of weight w/ an arch and ATV/UTV. (Logrites ARE nicely made).  I would recommend having one built w/ a hydraulic surge brake. I have wanted to do this but have not moved on it yet. It is an expensive but very safe way to do it.

I've always wondered... if you have surge breaks (on an arch or trailer), how do you back up? Don't they lock up as soon as you start backing? (I'm assuming you have a significant amount of weight on it)

[John Mc]

The polaris is definetly the safest option. THe also make very nice work platforms, due to the size, power to weight, and the fact that you can store stuff in the bed. I have a 1994 model, and it still goes strong. My uncle used to use it every day to get wood for his sawmill. THen, I used it briefly. It does the job quite well, if you plan everything out.

I'd agree with just about everything you said about the Polaris, except possibly that it's the safest of the options you mentioned. I would think the lack of weight would be a significant safety issue. It's easy to get into a "tail wagging the dog" type of situation, particularly given the fact that the original poster mentioned that he was in hilly terrain.

With ANY of the equipment we're considering here, it's important to know the limitations and the proper operating methods for logging with THAT equipment. I've never used an ATV for logging. I'm sure it can be done safely. I'm also pretty sure the techniques for doing it safely are pretty different from what you'd use on a tractor. If you've never done it before, find someone to show you the ropes.

[Maineloggerkid]

YOu make a good point. I just never had a problem, in part because I usually had some gear on the front , and that probably helped stabilize the machine.

The one reason I say that is the safetst is because it seems that it is the least tippy when used in combination with a logging arch. I used a homeade logging arch that had an electric boat winch and lifted both ends of the log of the ground.

[Ironwood]

John,

 There is a "lock out" option on the surge so that it won't engage on backing up.


 YES, the 8N was an INCREADIBLE "invention", amazingly still servicable/ relative in today's world 50+ years later. I had had three, strong heavy and less than convieneint for tight woods work. If you live in the "flatlands" go for it. All mine had loaders (FEL's) and I used them ALOT. I finally found my way to a hydrostat 4x4 compact. 






      Ironwood

[RSteiner]

I have to agree with Ed about the Ford 8N (or older tractors for that matter). You have to be able to fix it yourself, and be good at fixing things to run an old tractor. I usually go by the mentality that if the farmer decides to sell equipment, its done. Farmers in my area will change parts, customize and modify machines to get the most life they can out of the machines/parts.

If you can find an old unmolested tractor, it will do more work then a ATV. A small newer compact tractor would be my personal choice. They can do more work then a ATV, and are generally bought by hobby farmers or people with bigger then average properties, therefore are not run hard.

I use my ATV (polaris 400 2wd) to carry my chain saw to go travel the woods. When I'm ready to haul the wood out, I go with a 40HP 4WD John Deere. I don't do much work, mostly clearing of brushes to maintain the land.

My 2 cents (CAD )

Having owner an 8N for 20 years and using it for wood gathering work I can attest to the fact that you may have to repair something now and then.  The however of this is all the things I had to fix were due to pushing the tractor beyond the limits and that all the parts I ever needed were readly available.  The steering can get loose and sloppy and is not power steering.  I have broke a lift arm pulling too much sideways with the winch, my fault.  I have changed a water pump, replaced the steering box, exhaust and intake manifold, rebuilt the carb and done yearly tune ups.  Never changed over to a 12 volt system and my generator did not work for 20 years but that was never a big issue. 

They are an amasing machine considering the 50+ years of age and the amout of work they have done during that time.

Randy

[ex-Engineer Wannabe]

Great input, folks! 

I was really happy to see the photo Jeff posted of his quad/Logrite combination -- very nice indeed!  Is that a fetching arch you've got there, Jeff?

I also like the 6-wheel drive photo as well, Ed.  That thing looks like a real workhouse indeed.  Great reply!

I grew up around old tractors, so I've been down that road before.  We used them on the flatland, however, so sloping terrain and a tractor make me a bit nervous.   Some of our saw logs are definitely difficult to get to and we only have narrow trails to use for the most part, which is why the concept of "low impact logging" appeals to us.  We have a CAT loader with forks for the established skidding roads, so the arch would only be used for fetching on the slopes and forwarding on the narrower trails and such.

I also forgot to mention that we have some trespass issues, so being able top "intercept" our poacher friends would be a big plus for an ATV.

 

[Jeff]

That is the Mark7 arch.  I'll post a few picture here in a few minutes of Burlkraft and I working with it. I dont know what I'd do without the blue arch.

[JimMartin9999]

Mooseherder ought to consider getting a helmet

[Burlkraft]

I know he's got one...I seen it     

[Mooseherder]

Fact of the matter is I always Ride with a helmet in the trails.
In that clip I was adding to my trail system, made a log bridge over a ditch and had just taken off my bright orange logging helmet, put down my chain saw and took off my chaps so I could go 3 miles per hour to try it out.

[Jeff]

I dont where my helmet when I'm on my property.

 

[Ironwood]

Are the legs on those chairs bowing out? Waiting to buckle? Take some of that wood and build ya some adirondack style chairs. Looks like more fun than work in those pictures. 









          Ironwood

[ex-Engineer Wannabe]

Nice photos, Ironwood! 

Which JD model do you have there?    

Great job on the logging arch, too.  It certainly looks like it'll be around forever ... and those racks -- great idea! 

I'm really happy to see that I'm not the only one trying to "go small."

[Ironwood]

That is a 2005 HPX diesel. An arch will REALLY move some weight, go with the hydraulic surge brake, it would be a REALLY COOL addition to a small scale arch operation. Here is a BIG one, modeled after the Tractor Arch by Logrite, but sized in between the Tractor model and the discontinued Hugo. Logrite's stuff is ABSOLUTELY top notch if you don't have acess to welding and the like. 





 Ironwood

[zackman1801]

with these logging arches if you built one to be used with chokers could you put on 3 or 4 logs in one choker and haul them out that way. im talking about firewood sized things probably tree length but not more than 12-16" DBH. im interested because its probably only worth my time to build one if i can get more than one log on because it would take far too long to get alot of firewood out.

also would it be possible to use some kind of hand powered winch with them? i really dont have hardly any money to spend with everything going on.

[Ironwood]

If you are "chokering" I would rig up some sort of 12v powered winch. I dont even like hand winching one like in that picture. Major pain. If it is effiecency your are after then try to power up the cable, this would speed things up a good bit.
 Ironwood

[RSteiner]

On the arch I built I mounted a two speed hand crank boat winch with about 20 feet of cable on the back of the arch.  The is used to drag the log to the arch at times and also to lift the log off the ground so it can be chained up off the ground.

Randy

[Dom]

I have to agree with Ed about the Ford 8N (or older tractors for that matter). You have to be able to fix it yourself, and be good at fixing things to run an old tractor. I usually go by the mentality that if the farmer decides to sell equipment, its done. Farmers in my area will change parts, customize and modify machines to get the most life they can out of the machines/parts.

If you can find an old unmolested tractor, it will do more work then a ATV. A small newer compact tractor would be my personal choice. They can do more work then a ATV, and are generally bought by hobby farmers or people with bigger then average properties, therefore are not run hard.

I use my ATV (polaris 400 2wd) to carry my chain saw to go travel the woods. When I'm ready to haul the wood out, I go with a 40HP 4WD John Deere. I don't do much work, mostly clearing of brushes to maintain the land.

My 2 cents (CAD )

Having owner an 8N for 20 years and using it for wood gathering work I can attest to the fact that you may have to repair something now and then.  The however of this is all the things I had to fix were due to pushing the tractor beyond the limits and that all the parts I ever needed were readly available.  The steering can get loose and sloppy and is not power steering.  I have broke a lift arm pulling too much sideways with the winch, my fault.  I have changed a water pump, replaced the steering box, exhaust and intake manifold, rebuilt the carb and done yearly tune ups.  Never changed over to a 12 volt system and my generator did not work for 20 years but that was never a big issue. 

They are an amasing machine considering the 50+ years of age and the amout of work they have done during that time.

Randy

I agree, they are amazing little tractors that changed the tractor industry in my opinion, but they still may not be the optimal tool for everyone. I actually saw 2 8N for sale locally, I'll have to stop and peak at them.

Piece of Rottne Industri history: The first Rottne machines used Ford tractors (I forgot the model) minus the front axle. The only modification to the powertrain was a better clutch.

Back to topic, those log arches are nice. I now have a new project to do.