cutting down trees

[justintimemoto]

have a question how do u cut a tree that is leaning backward and make it go forward.......i was cutting today and i had one come up like this i threw the wedges in and it still went backwards...how do you get them to go the other way?

[pineywoods]

Long cable and a big tractor

[jokers]

How far backwards was it leaning? You can stack wedges to get more lift or even use a jack such as a hydraulic or Hi-Lift if you don`t want to use ropes or cables in the canopy.

It scares me thinking about that tree going backwards on you, how robust was your hinge? You might want to leave your hinge a little thicker when you know that your going to have to do substantial wedging, especially if you come in from the sides right behind the hinge. When I first started bore cutting I drove a couple over sideways when I overdrove a wedge from the side, pulled the hinge right apart.

[Maineloggerkid]

I do it all the time with wedges

[Kevin]

A rope and winch work best but you can wedge many of them over.
Sometimes when you go too deep with your notch the leverage alone is enough to make the tree fall back so keep your hinge forward on those.
If it does't lift enough the first time you can make another face and back cut using wedges and lift it more.
Sometimes you can lift it by stacking wedges as previously mentioned.
There's a limit to how far you can get a tree to come back just using wedges.
An open face notch will allow the tree to move more.

[zackman1801]

a good technique for  getting smaller diameter trees to fall opposite of the lean is to make an open faced notch, then bore in through the center all the way out the back of the tree. This allows the wedges to be inserted all the way through the hinge instead of breaking it, this is especially good on trees around 10-12" in diameter because a normal wedge would not be able to go all the way into the tree without hitting the hinge and breaking it, the important thing is to get the wedge all the way into the tree to give it the max amount of lift the wedge can give. Then once your satisfied that the tree is either standing straight now or that its leaning in the direction you want it to fall you can then bore in a bit on each side of the wege slightly lower than where the wedge was inserted and only about and inch under where the wedge is sitting in the tree, if you go all the way through like a normal bore cut it will get pinched under the wedge. you do the same to the other side, leave a small strap at the back, go to the area you want to release the tree from and then release it and run.  ill see if i can draw a picture since i dont think that me talking is going to get the job done since im not the best at explaining things.


well i just tried and i exceded my filesize, so ill fool with later to night but i have to go for now.

[beenthere]

zack
That was a pretty good explanation.
Keeping in mind that there needs to be enough solid, good wood at the hinge to resist the lifting forces of the wedge (s), and no wood that keeps the wedges from doing that lifting.  A bit of decay in the hinge area can upset the apple cart, so to speak. The risk of getting the bar pinched in the back-cut is high when falling opposite the lean.

[zackman1801]

thats why you get your wedge in a bit before you do your back cut, it helps keep some of the weight off the bar.  my instructor took a white birch over the other day that had about 7 feet of back lean with one wedge and this technique, he left a bit too much of hinge though because he had to drive the wedge soo far into the tree it almost dissapeared .
but when or if you do this tecnique make sure that you cut out a small area in the bottom of the open faced notch so that when the notch closes up it dosent break your wedges in half.

PS. the above two posts i posted are only pertaining to trees that are less wide than the length of your wedge, if you have a larger tree with say  20" or more DBH then you dont need to bore all the way through the tree, only far enough to drive a wedge in to get maximum lift.  and you also would not need to cut the extra space out of the notch because your wedge wont be sticking out of the tree in the front.

[rebocardo]

> how do you get them to go the other way?

Myself, I get a 1/4" steel winch cable good for 7k pounds into the tree about 75% up, then I attach it to a 4x4 truck.

Then I use a shallow very open, open face notch.

Then I start with plastic wedges, then hard head wedges, and stack them to make the tree straight. Once straight and balanced, I pull it over with the 4x4.

I do not like pushing bad leaners all the way with wedges because of the possibility the hinge might snap early and if the oak tree is big enough (24"+) you might have to leave such a big hinge to hold the tree, you aren't tipping it all the way over without a lot of effort and risk of breaking the hinge doing it.

In an urban area, nothing is worse then dropping a leaner the opposite way and having the hinge break and the tree pitch sideways instead. Except maybe not having at least three cables on it 

[John Mc]

You can stack wedges to get more lift

I've not had the greatest luck stacking wedges. When I'm pounding one, the other sometimes wants to pop back out. Since I only carry two wedges, there is a limit to how much I can stack anyway. What I've ended up doing in these cases, is cutting a couple of "cookies" (either from a scrap lying around, or I make some as I'm cutting the notch out of the notch wood). First cookie is about 3/4" thick, if needed, another at about 1.5", and so on. I'll drive my first wedge. That opens up the back cut enough to slide my 3/4" cookie beside it. I then drive my next wedge on top of the cookie. This frees the first wedge. If the tree hasn't dropped by now, I put in the second, thicker cookie, and drive the first wedge back in on top of that. You can keep going with this, continuing to step open the gap till the tree goes over. I did a 24" black walnut this way. My final cookie was almost 4" thick.

Unfortunately, this doesn't work on a tree that is too small to fit a couple of wedges side by side. I've used the "bore through the center of the hinge to make room for the wedge" technique described above, but so far have not had to stack wedges when doing this. It's important when doing this technique to remember to bore once all the way through and out the back, and then offset down one bar thickness and go again from the face of the notch just deep enough to go past the hinge area again. This prevents the wedge from binding in the hinge... without it, a hard drive on the wedge is pushing up on the hinge as well, and might cause the hinge to let go.

John Mc

[Kevin]

7 feet of back lean with one wedge

This only holds true with a smaller diameter tall tree.
You can't move larger trees that far with one wedge.
It would take two and half wedges stacked to even move an 18" dia. tree 60ft. tall the same distance.

[jokers]

Here`s a video posted by Ekka of a slight variation on the theme of what Zack has described. You`ll notice the bi-directional hinge created with this method.

http://www.youtube.com/v/bU9p6EtN1ew&hl=en

[Kevin]

That would have worked with the wedge in the felling cut on that celery stick.
The force required to do that in a real tree would be quite a bit more.

[jokers]

That would have worked with the wedge in the felling cut on that celery stick.
The force required to do that in a real tree would be quite a bit more.

Wasn`t zackman`s post in regard to small diameter trees?

...a good technique for  getting smaller diameter trees...

You`ll also notice that the wedge driven in this video is done with a fairly small claw hammer........made me laugh.......but it`s the illustration of the principle, felling small diameter trees using a wedge and how to accomodate a wedge that may impact the hinge. Truthfully, if this tree wouldn`t have fallen on it`s own, a felling bar would have been much quicker. A guy could however still apply the bi-directional hinge principle to larger trees.

[Cedarman]

For cedar trees that have a good bitof the mass in the lower 1/2 of the tree I do 1 of 2 things.  Use open face notch and bore tree leaving about 1" of hinge for trees 12" and bigger and about 3/4" for trees smaller.  Insert wedges in bore cut.  I use 6" wedges with little divits (or whatever they are called) sticking out to keep the wedge from flying back out at me.  Then clip holding strip.  Use baby sledge to drive in wedges or use my handy 12' pusher pole to tip tree on over.  If tree is back leaning badly, then use farmi winch to do its thing.

If back lean is not too much then I cut open face notch, bore tree and quickly cut out back of tree.  Tree will set on saw.  Can use wedges or use pusher pole.  Pole is quickest.  With big trees sometimes have to make wooden wedges from dogwood trees.  Make sure tree has not sat down on saw if needing wooden wedges or forgot to cut pusher pole.

[Kevin]

Yes Russ, small trees but even the the wood in small trees can be much more difficult to fracture than that of palm trees.
You could do the same thing by eliminating the stump shot but you'll only gain the thickness of the hinge by boring it.
The fact he is using a splitting wedge creates twice the lift as well.
I can't see using his technique for falling anything but palms.

[zackman1801]

[/quote]
I've not had the greatest luck stacking wedges. When I'm pounding one, the other sometimes wants to pop back out.
[/quote]

instead of stacking them straight on top of each other to make a taller wedge, take them and insert one, then take the other and insert it sideways across the other wedge, it will give the same ammount of lift, but they wont pop out as the other one is going in. when its in the tree it will resemble an X.

[jokers]

Kevin, I`ve never cut a palm tree, have you? The basic methodology described and illustrated here is taught in many logger training programs including Tim Ard`s Forest Apps and the Memic handbook in this thread; http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,31114.0.html , quite simply it works and it works in hardwoods like maple, beech, and yellow birch because I`ve done it. I don`t carry ropes into the bush with me and since I`m normally working alone I don`t rely on setting a cable and pulling trees over with a machine either. I want to put them on the ground in the lay that I want with nothing more than my saw, a few wedges, and a maul, and I suspect that many guys share this sentiment.  I am not at all suggesting that this method supplants your expertise in landing danger trees in very close proximity to wires or structures, only that acceptability of methods varies with the environment, ie; hiked into the bush vs roadside.

I don`t understand what your problem is with me posting about it and why you seem to feel a compulsion to keep saying "it won`t work". Do you care to elaborate on that?

[John Mc]

Yes Russ, small trees but even the the wood in small trees can be much more difficult to fracture than that of palm trees...
...
I can't see using his technique for falling anything but palms.

I've done it on 8" Oak, Beech and Maple with no problems. As long as all the fibers are severed (other than the hinge, of course), getting the wood to fracture along the grain is no big deal... especially if you are using a felling wedge, with its much more gradual taper, rather than the splitting wedge shown in the video. Of course, you're not going to have much luck with a claw hammer. I use the back side of a 30" axe to drive the wedge.

John Mc

[Kevin]

Russ;
I can say that I've never even tried it and was not saying not to use the technique but it serves no useful purpose and gives you no better advantage over conventional felling techniques in my opinion.
Palm trees I know are a different fiber than wood and this process would work better in palms only due to the structure of the palm.
Palms aren't wood, you know that as well.
That's isn't saying that it won't work in wood but it is saying that it won't be the same.
Where did you read that I had a problem with you posting this technique? 
What are the advantages? You can still bore the hinge using the standard felling methods but it's only good up to and just through hinge wood as well.

What page are you seeing this method used in the Memic handbook?
 
28-29

5. Using the attack corner of the saw on the bad side, make a cut
about 1/2 inch below the wedge so that a hinge is formed.
Cut just past the wedge: care must be taken not to cut the
supporting wood under the wedge.

Looks similar but inverted.

[ID4ster]

It depends on how far the back lean is. If its a tree that can be wedged over against the lean I put the back cut in first, drive in my wedges and then put in the front cuts and drive the tree over. If the lean is too severe to take it straight against the lean than I'll drop if up to a 90 degree angle to the lean. If the lean is too severe to wedge and you need to drop it straight against the lean then use  the big yellow wedge and that will take care of the problem.

[jokers]

Yes Kevin, the method illustrated in the video is inverted and that is why I stated that it is a variation on the theme of what Zack described. The only reason that I feel you have a problem with me posting this is because it seems that you keep on coming back and posting that it won`t work. I`m sorry Kevin, I have alot of respect and admiration for your skill but this technique does work, and it isn`t that hard.

[Kevin]

I know it works but is there any advantage over just sticking a wedge in the felling cut and and wedging the tree over?
There may be an advantange to using the tongue and groove for falling a tree but I don't see it.
The problem with small trees is there isn't enough space behind the hinge to place the full length of the wedge.
If you bore the hinge you might gain an inch at best.
A better solution would be a double taper wedge.
I like the tongue and groove for bucking because it serves a purpose but I'm not convinced it has any purpose for falling a tree.
Russ;
The respect and admiration is mutual, this is just a discussion on a felling technique and any advantage it may have .
Thanks for posting the video for others to see.

[John Mc]

Well, I don't have the experience or expertise of either of you, but I have used this method to drop a lot of small trees with back lean. FWIW, here are some of my thoughts:

I know it works but is there any advantage over just sticking a wedge in the felling cut and and wedging the tree over?

On a small tree, you may only be able to drive the wedge in 4 inches or so. Not much lift from that.

There may be an advantage to using the tongue and groove for falling a tree but I don't see it.
The problem with small trees is there isn't enough space behind the hinge to place the full length of the wedge.
If you bore the hinge you might gain an inch at best.

If all you do is bore the hinge, you might only get another inch of drive on the wedge. If after boring the hinge, you drop down one bar thickness and bore again from the notch just far enough in to pass the hinge (as described in an earlier post), you create a larger gap for the wedge, allowing much more of the wedge to be driven in. It can make the difference between half or less of the wedge when you don't bore through the hinge, to using the full wedge when you do bore and relieve the hinge as described.

I like the tongue and groove for bucking because it serves a purpose but I'm not convinced it has any purpose for falling a tree.

Perhaps part of the problem is one of perception. There is no purpose for the tongue and groove... other than to complete the back cut and sever the fibers without hitting your wedge. Unlike in bucking, it has nothing to do with steering the tree or preventing it from twisting. The offset in the video was much more exaggerated than it needed to be. You just need to offset either up or down just enough to avoid nicking the wedge (I always seem to offset up... but I haven't thought about it much).

John Mc

[Kevin]

John;
I think you nailed it.
Perception being a small tree but actually a small tree that is leaning back.
I can see where it would be a benefit in a situation like that.
It allows you make the back cut and still have wood supporting the tree as in a bore with a strap.
You make the two back cuts and the tree remains supported while you drive the wedge ahead tripping the tree.

[John Mc]

Kevin -

That's it. It's just a way someone figured out to use similar "bore cut"-type methods when you don't otherwise have room to drive a wedge. Boring back through the hinge makes a slot for your wedge, but leaves the sides in place to support the tree so it doesn't settle back and close up the back cut before you can get the wedge in. Once the wedge is set, you make the two back cuts and give a few whacks on the wedge to take the back lean out and drive the tree over. It's a waste of time on a small tree without any back lean.

John Mc

[rebocardo]

> My final cookie was almost 4" thick

Now that I know someone that actually uses them like that with success I might try it myself. Though if I had an oak of any size decent size in an urban area that needed a 4" cookie, I think I might tell them to call an arborist, I am not that brave.   

[zackman1801]

 It's a waste of time on a small tree without any back lean.

thats why this technique is only used for trees that are small, and have more than 1-2 feet of back lean, if they have only a small amount usually you can just push them over if they are small enough. i know that some people have different opinions on what small is, so im talking trees >12" DBH.  anything bigger you can just bore cut normally and have room for a few wedges.

[John Mc]

Now that I know someone that actually uses them like that with success I might try it myself. Though if I had an oak of any size decent size in an urban area that needed a 4" cookie, I think I might tell them to call an arborist, I am not that brave.   

The one I did this on was a black walnut. The back lean was over a small riverside cottage at my in-laws. I did chicken out a bit. I wanted to see if it was possible (I was confident it was, but seeing is believing). I figured I didn't want to get the thing most of the way cut, and then discover that I wished I had tied a rope or chain up high. We took a good rope and tied it off to a tractor before I started cutting. We put just a bit of tension on it, but the tractor driver's instructions were to let me push it over with the wedges unless I signaled him otherwise. It was neat seeing the step up in cookies from about 3/4" up to something that looked a bit thicker than a 4X4 as I alternated wedges. This tree was big enough that the angle in the backcut created by a cookie that size was not something that was in danger of spitting the cookie out of the gap (a 4" cookie in a 10 or 12" dbh tree would be more of a concern).

Fun time. Would have been quicker to just pull it over once we already had the tractor and the rope set up, but it was a good learning experience for me.

John Mc

[Phorester]

Interesting video, and really explains his technique.  But I never hear any music when I'm cutting trees.

Maybe that's a good thing.........

[Kevin]

It might also be a benefit when cutting small trees in a breeze to help control movement.

[John Mc]

But I never hear any music when I'm cutting trees.

Maybe that's a good thing.........

If you start hearing voices, that's when we really get worried...

John Mc