Wind power...what a joke!

[bull]

Hmmm, if you reduce your energy cost by 50% you have gain of 50%...
Simple reduction will reduce demand and supply will then fluctuate to an affordable rate or the supplier will not be in buisness.... Its all dollars and cents....
 The old story of why burn wood or use alternative energy has changed, Oil is no longer cheap and less work !!! 

[treenail]

Am all for developing different forms of clean energy, that will help power our needs. Although wind energy has it's drawbacks, it does contribute to the power grid, as such, is usefull on the whole. The free market will fill in the blanks. I have lived within the 10 mile radius emergency evacuation zone of an atomic power plant for  thirty five years, and although it is very reliable, there are always reservations of sorts about it. It does contribute to our needs , so everything is a balancing act.

[Fla._Deadheader]

 The photo that was posted in the beginning of this thread, is a good reference of how NOT to put in Wind generators. You need a constantly UNINTERRUPTED flow of air, to get max efficiency, from wind.

  You need to get information on PREVAILING wind direction, and spread out those machines. ANY object in the way of the wind striking those blades, will cut that efficiency, DRASTICALLY.

  When I had to climb a tower, and PHYSICALLY rotate a spinning rotor out of the wind, to shut down an over-running machine, I could have lit a cigarette while I was on the backside of the tower, behind that spinning rotor. The air strikes the front surface of those blades, and is thrown OUT SIDEWAYS from the blades. It will NOT pass through, if the machine is designed correctly, unless the blades are at max RPM, and furled to govern the RPM's of the machine.. At slower speeds, what little that does pass through, is useless to any machine downwind of that location.

  Those huge machines, are HEAVY. Bearings will not hold up to the stresses. They can NOT turn fast, or the gyroscopic forces will destroy them. They are mechanically "yawed" seeking direct wind flow. That is a slow process, for a huge machine.

  When you see photos like the one mentioned, usually the front wind facing machines are turning, the ones behind are not. What ever direction the wind comes from, the machines with the most wind exposure are turning. The rest are not. They are regulated by wind sensors, to not run, until more than half efficiency will be achieved.

  A series of machines, built HALF the size of those huge ones, will outlast, and out produce the huge ones, especially if spread out.

  I believe that some of these could be subsidized. I KNOW others are not.

  A thread on subsidizing, ALL subsidizing, would be a HOT topic on this board. 

  May a steady wind be at your location, for all those who DO have wind machines. 

[TW]

I wold recommend that you take a look at the Danes. They have a huge percentage of wind power with corresponding spare capacity from other sources and manages well. They cut the worst peaks by buying power from Swedish hydroelectric plants, and sell back wind power when the wind is favourable. There has been some mayor problems, but nothing catastrophic, and they work on it and get better at iot for every year.
After that energy breakdown you had some years ago on the east coast you Americans cannot claim to be any better when it comes to reliability.

It is no idea to build windmills where it does not blow. There is a huge difference between the wind power availeable deep in the Finnish forests, and what is on let's say the Outer Hebrides in Scotland.

I am young, but barely old enough to remember Chernobyl. I think that is the first news headline I remember. People still die from the radioactivity every year, all over north eastern Europe. Therfore I do not like nuclear power.

First and foremost we must learn to save energy.


Just my oppinions.

[submarinesailor]

After that energy breakdown you had some years ago on the east coast you Americans cannot claim to be any better when it comes to reliability.

Speaking of the blackout.  I read this today: http://www.govexec.com/story_page.cfm?articleid=40112&dcn=todaysnews.

Bruce

[Tom]

How could we ever suspect that.  A hard working, upcoming nation like China meddling in the affairs of other countries, it's unbelievable?  Perhaps if we were to build a bridge to China so that they could partake of the NAFTA HIGHWAY people would look a little lighter at blaming them for espionage.

What could they ever benefit from mapping our power grids?   It's not like we have anything they want, we're already flooding them with most all that we have. 

[submarinesailor]

One of the key points that has been spoken of in the thread was about energy storage.  Currently there are many research projects on going:  compressed air storage (in ground), super capacitors and batteries, they are still trying to improve the efficiency of pumped hydro and hydrogen generation - one of the bigger problems with hydrogen storage is that the atoms are so small, they can leak by or thru just about anything.

And one more point, if you are going to use numbers about installed capacity, I recommend you find the correct numbers.  Check out this link for some good numbers:  http://www.eere.energy.gov/windandhydro/windpoweringamerica/wind_installed_capacity.asp.

For my place down in the county, I have resources for all three; wind on a mountain top, large areas for solar and a river running thru the front yard with about 20 feet of drop for one side of the property to the other.  Just have to get the money and time to do it.

[HORSELOGGER]

Harold, thanks for posting that info about the turbine spacing. There are some big wind farms in my area , and when I drive by them I am always stumped as to why, even on extremely windy days, some are spinning like crazy while others are dead still. Now I know

[Warbird]

HL, any chance you are observing windmills that were down for maintenance or that were shut down because their power wasn't needed at the time?

[Fla._Deadheader]

 Sure, that's always a possibility, BUT, everytime you see a wind farm   i don't think so.

  Ever see wind generators installed on the side of a hill   What happens to wind when it has to rise over a hill, or other obstruction   It breaks up the forces and tumbles. That's what it does. You NEED direct, STABLE wind force, not broken and tumbled.

[HORSELOGGER]

OK, maybe I still dont know

[StorminN]

Deadheader,

That picture I posted above is of the Middelgrunden offshore wind turbines near Copenhagen, Denmark. The perspective of that pic makes it look like the turbines are closer together than they really are. That, and judging from the sea surface in the picture, I believe that picture was taken on a calm day. The only time I have seen these turbines in person, they were all spinning. They are a km or two offshore, and I believe the apex of the arc faces the prevailing wind. Those turbines are HUGE, a few hundred feet high each, and I assume that when someone invests that kind of money, they have done the research to properly site them (but I could be wrong!)

Here's a link with some info:
Wind Power in Denmark

One thing I find very interesting about the Danish setups is that the government encourages energy cooperatives... so 2,000+ of these turbines are owned by small private family cooperatives.

-N.

[zopi]

I am young, but barely old enough to remember Chernobyl. I think that is the first news headline I remember. People still die from the radioactivity every year, all over north eastern Europe. Therfore I do not like nuclear power.

There are issues with nuclear power, but in the large scheme of things, i'll take nuclear
generation over coal or oil.

Chernobyl was not a disaster on the scale that it was simply because it was nuclear...it was the disaster it was because of arrogance and stupidity..a reactor in the states, starts with a cube of 1095 carbon steel..solid steel, backed up by several feet of concrete, they are designed to
withstand the impact of a Boeing 747 diving from an altitude of 40,000 feet..with failsafes in place that are NEVER compromised in any combination which can lead to a hypercritical situation as in Chernobyl..

The reactor that melted in Chernobyl was constructed in much the same manner, with one exception..it did  start as a cube of 1095 backed up by several feet of concrete...except the top, witch was basically just a roof strong enough to withstand operational pressures..backed up none too effectively by..well..next time you are in a Wal Mart..look up at the ceiling..like that..

Here is where the chain broke, while performing testing and maintenance, several critical safeties were bypassed or locked out..and in that combination along with a couple of malfunctions, the Wet Hot Rock in a Can, became a Dry Hot Rock in a Can...with no method of recovery possible...the rest as they say is obvious..

I, of course cannot give you the specific technical details, I'm not a Nuke, but I do work with
them on a daily basis...and have listened to quite a few conversations about just how stupid the whole thing was, and how easily preventable..that reactor should NEVER have melted..and would not have, if the idiot bureaucrats running things had refused to deviate from their own
guidelines...

The last I heard, the other reactors at Chernobyl were still operational.

Check out:

http://www.kiddofspeed.com/

and

http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/chernobyl/inf07.html

[Brucer]

There's a wind farm in Quebec, on the Gaspe penninsula. It's a windy and relatively unpopulate region.

The wind turbines are about 400 metres apart -- about 1/4 mile -- so they don't interfere with each other.

The availability is 93%.

The wind speeds are considerably higher in the winter when the hydroelectric reservoirs are at their lowest.

The turbines were built and are operated by a private company, and the power is sold to the local utility. Barb owns a small piece of that company, and it contributes a nice little chunk of cash to our family income .

..a reactor in the states, starts with a cube of 1095 carbon steel..solid steel, backed up by several feet of concrete, they are designed to
withstand the impact of a Boeing 747 diving from an altitude of 40,000 feet..with failsafes in place that are NEVER compromised in any combination which can lead to a hypercritical situation as in Chernobyl..

Umm ... 3-mile island

[Gary_C]

Umm ... 3-mile island

Equipment malfunction, sensor malfunction, and operator error. Essentially what happened is a valve malfunctioned and started allowing water to leave the reactor containment. The sensors did not show the operators the water level was dropping and they did not know the valve was open. With the wrong information and lack of information, the operators took the wrong measures to stop the temperature rise and made things worse.

You can believe the US NRC has made design changes to all nuc power plants to prevent this from ever happening again.

[Fla._Deadheader]

  Photos are not always what they seem to be   Were they all the same height

  I'm not saying ALL wind farms are not properly spaced. Just tried to use that cluttered LOOKING photo, to show how wind can be deflected by other machines, IF they are not spaced correctly.

  I believe it's the usual thinking on SOME sites, that, if we can make xx$ with 10 machines, lets add 5-6 more, and make more $$. THAT defeats having all machines working at one time.

[Woodwalker]

People are confusing reliablity and intermittent capacity. Wind turbines are very reliable. But they have intermittent capacity.  This means that they do not run all the time. Most alt. energy is this way. Solar does not work at night. Hydro works when the water is flowing, unless you have a large impoundment area. So intermittment capacity is the nature of the beast. You just have to find ways to work around it. Peak plants are a fact of life now. Elec. Demand varies greatly during the day and night and theelec. company copes. until you get a large number od wind turbines on line it is not a problem at all. Remember every kilowatt of power that comes from a wind turbine is a kilowatt  that is not generated by fossil fuels.

Stonebroke

Well said,
In this month’s issue of Texas Co-Op Power http://www.texas-ec.org/texascooppower/ there are a couple of articles on wind power. You can download it, but it’s over 8 MB. Here is a few excerpts;
From the World Wind Energy Association’s rankings of wind power by megawatts installed,
Germany   22,247
US      16,819
    TX       4,356
    CA       2,439
Spain      15,145
India       7,850
China       5,899
At present in Texas we have more wind generation capability  (5,000MW) than we have high voltage transmission lines (3,400MW) to transport the energy. The article stress’s that wind power is intermittent and has to be supplemented by a steady source.
The average rating of these (West Texas) turbines is 1.82MW. Should you lease your land and have one of these installed, royalty’s are about 3% of gross or around $4,000.00 per megawatt  per year.
From the Fort Worth Star-Telegram
“Mesa Power is offering landowners on a project near Amarillo $4,500 per turbine upfront and payments for the electricity produced, starting at 4 percent and rising to 5 percent after eight years.
FORT WORTH, Texas -- Dallas oilman and investor Boone Pickens wants to build the world's largest wind farm in the Texas Panhandle, a project that would put as many as 2,000 turbines on nearly 200,000 acres in four counties.
Pickens' Mesa Power presented its plans to about 250 landowners and their representatives Tuesday in Pampa, about 50 miles northeast of Amarillo, said Mike Boswell, a Mesa official. He said the project would have the capacity to generate 2,000 to 4,000 megawatts, the equivalent of one or two Comanche Peak nuclear power plants, and would cost as much as $6 billion, including transmission lines to carry the power to the state's main power grid.”

Maybe wind power is a joke, but a lot of people are spending some very serious money for a laugh.

[Dave Shepard]

It sounds like there might also be a lot of jobs to come from alt energy installation. That sounds like a nice little byproduct.


Dave

[sharp edge]

I would like to see a string of the big 200' fans between US and Canada. In winter time turn them on and keep all the cold air up there, summer turn them around. Just think of all the heating and a/c saveings.
 
sharp E

[Warbird]

I would like to see a string of the big 200' fans between US and Canada. In winter time turn them on and keep all the cold air up there, summer turn them around. Just think of all the heating and a/c saveings.
 
sharp E

Sounds to me like someone is full of air.  Hot air, that is.