Clearing out the underbrush

[bigtreesinwa]

I know I've been asking a lot of questions lately....I appreciate all of the good answers everyone has given, and I've tried to answer any questions that I can from other people.

OK, So I'm from Montana originally and now live in Western Washington for work-related regions. I can't get over how much underbrush and vegetation grow out here in the Seattle area. On my property right now I have stinging nettle three feet tall and they'll be six feet tall in the next month or so! One of my primary goals is to manage my forestland for recreation, and having six feet tall stinging nettle does not meet those goals in any way, shape, or form.

I've talked with my county foresters and other people associated with our local government, and of course, living in Western Washington we seem to have a huge collection of enviromentists who tell me that I need to look out for the skunks, field mice, and squirrels and shouldn't do anything with the underbrush except let it grow taller and taller. This plan, while good for environmentalists, does not fit my goals at all.

Has anyone here had experience in removing underbrush to improve the land for recreation? What kind of equipment do you use for removing the underbush? Have you been concerned about soil compaction at all (and it's affect on the timber on your property)?

I really appreciate all of the information everyone has suggested so far. I'll try to help out by answering any questions that I'm comfortable too as well.

Greg

[Tom]

What kind of equipment do you use for removing the underbush

?

Generally, a match.

The west coast of the USA isn't the best place for someone who believes in property rights and personal ownership,  Stories I've heard make me think that a third party might be advantages in this situation.  You might look into a Stewardship plan written by a county Forester that would carry the depth of the U.S. Government.  That's not strength in it's own right, but might add credence to your actions.

Unfortunately, in my opinion, you are in an area full of micro managing bureaucrats who believe that "what is mine is mine and what is yours is mine ".  For a start, I would say, walk softly.

[Ironwood]

A small 4 wheel drive tractor (camoflage green to hide from the nieghbors watching) w/ a front loader and tooth bucket. It will rip an tear cirlces, also flail or brush hog. I have a 20HP and man it really does great. I should mention I have tons of experience and it may take a little time to "get it". But it can be a very handy tool, many times the rear of the tractor comes off the ground and the rolling of the bucket is the most powerful for ripping, and don't forget to scruff around the root alittle before pushing over or pulling on the tree, even a small tree has VERY powerful and stong roots.


           Ironwood

[bigtreesinwa]

What kind of equipment do you use for removing the underbush

?

Generally, a match.

The west coast of the USA isn't the best place for someone who believes in property rights and personal ownership,  Stories I've heard make me think that a third party might be advantages in this situation.  You might look into a Stewardship plan written by a county Forester that would carry the depth of the U.S. Government.  That's not strength in it's own right, but might add credence to your actions.

Unfortunately, in my opinion, you are in an area full of micro managing bureaucrats who believe that "what is mine is mine and what is yours is mine ".  For a start, I would say, walk softly.

Yes, that describes the Seattle area very well unfortunately. I don't have a single conversation with anyone in the government that doesn't describe the terrible evils I am doing to the environment. We are guaranteed under the US Constitution the right of "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." The government is pushing back so hard on my simple goal of building a house that I nearly have an effective lawsuit that they have taken away the right to live.....

But what I'm proposing is actually legal and allowed. I'm asking here more on how to do it best (appreciate the suggestion of Ironwood) so I don't harm the existing trees that are growing here.

[Ironwood]

Thanks, One thing I forgot to mention, alot of guys will say 25-30-40-even 50hp. but for me the small JD 655 is small enough to not hurt alot of things, and just big enough to get the job done. It fits through the woods w/ out making an actual "road" and with a 5' three point attachment (lots left over from my old 8N Ford) I can get REALLY close to the trees w/ oout damaging them (tractor is a good bit narrower). The hydrostatic is also a must for tight woods work and especially important for front end loader (FEL) work with such a small tractor.


           Ironwood

[Tom]

A match is still a good way if you can make it happen, and you don't hurt your "leave" trees.

a spring or summer fire is a killing fire. burned against the wind it will take out most underbrush.

[Greg Cook]

Tom, you sure can tell when a man has been raised in The South!

 I'm afraid he may have a moisture problem if he's growing vegetation like a rain forest.  But I agree that, done properly and with common sense planning, those Blue Diamond Vegetation Management Sticks can do a lot of work for their size.

Greg

[WDH]

Selectively using herbicide on individual plants is non-intrusive and very effective.  It can be sprayed on foliage or bark in the right formulations.

[bigtreesinwa]

Selectively using herbicide on individual plants is non-intrusive and very effective.  It can be sprayed on foliage or bark in the right formulations.

I've seen a lot of information about hericides around here and that's a good reminder to look more into that.

I'd love to use a match (if I could do it right) but unfortunately it's too wet around here. On the east sides of the mountains (and all of Montana where I'm from) prescriptive burning was a great forest management tool. Here in Western Washington it's too moist to do except during the driest parts of the summer, and then they have a fire-safety burn ban in place.

Greg

[Tillaway]

Where is the property?  What how many different species of brush and what are they?  Trees species, stocking level and age?  How close to streams and what types (perennial, seasonal, fish streams, I'm not sure how Washington classifies their streams)?  Any... umm.... "sensitive" neighbors?  How large is the property?  How steep?  What kind of recreation?

Have talked to a Stewardship Forester from Washington DNR yet? 

[Greg Cook]

OOOOOOOHHHHHH!!!!! Before I forget...

Check CAREFULLY for Spotted Owls before you do ANYTHING!  You do NOT want Al Gore on your bad side.....

Greg

[bigtreesinwa]

Where is the property?  What how many different species of brush and what are they?  Trees species, stocking level and age?  How close to streams and what types (perennial, seasonal, fish streams, I'm not sure how Washington classifies their streams)?  Any... umm.... "sensitive" neighbors?  How large is the property?  How steep?  What kind of recreation?

Have talked to a Stewardship Forester from Washington DNR yet? 

The property is in the Puget Sound, outside of Seattle. Species of brush is primarily vine maple, with some quantities of small diameter alder. Tree species are Douglas-fir and Western Red Cedar (keepers) and overmature bigleaf Maple (to be removed), some alder and bitter cherry. Age is about 75 years. No streams, though some wetlands. No sensitive neighbors. 30 acre parcel, relatively flat.

Recreation is primarily hiking in the woods (it's too thick for that now), maybe cut some trails for mountain biking. Big thing is to be able to run around in the woods without it being so thick you can't see five feet in front of you.

No spotted owls on the property. Thank goodness!

[Tillaway]

Vine Maple is hard to get rid of.  Most tie removal in with a harvest.  Since you are trying to knock things down for recreation and trying to maintain most of the stand intact then mechanical removal is about the only option.  If you hack and squirt you still have to deal with the dead maple.   You can get decent results ripping it out of the ground with an excavator. Hopefully you have a stocking level that allows enough room for machinery to work.  That is how we deal with it since it can be hard to kill with herbicides.  It will not burn well since it is very hard to pile tight enough to carry a fire.  The alder can be cut but why kill valuable trees on the property.  You can thin them and they will respond if they are young enough.

Blackberry and Salmonberry can be effectively controlled with Glyphosate applied in mid to late August, be sure to use a surfactant.

[WILDSAWMILL]

some people around here use goats

[Urbicide]

 I have some stinging nettles on my property. I find them mainly down by the creek. A squirt of glyphosphate works pretty good on them. I never even knew I had them until a good friend of mine and his eldest son stopped by wearing shorts. We were walking near the creek when all of a sudden they both started hollering. I always wear jeans so they weren't getting me and I never really noticed them. Now I keep an eye out for the leaf and then carefully look for the little hairs. I can't imagine 6 foot nettles. Those along with multi-floral rose would slow someone down. Might work better than land mines.

[routestep]

Don't know if your still interested in clearing brush. But as it is a never ending problem here is what my brother did on a 34 acre lot he bought.

He bought a lot that had been clear cut about ten years ago here in central Virginia. Natural regen is in oaks etc and stickers. Extremely thick, thousands of stems and canes per acre. I couldn't walk it without pulling stickers out of my face, legs and hands. A chain saw seemed impractical.

So he hired a man with a skid steer with a rotary (horizontal about six feet) shredder attachment on the front that shredded the small trees and brush into mulch. He cleared out a 3 acre spot for a cabin first. Then he had the machine clear a track one machine width then moved over about ten feet over and clear another track. He had this done about a dozen times, maybe 200 ft in until he decided he spent about enough. Cost was $120 per hour so its not a cheap operation. He plans to do some clearing with a chain saw now that he can get in to the woods, end up with a checker board pattern and let the trees grow a bit. He still has twenty plus acres of thick brush to deal with at some point.

[BWT]

You could try to find someone with a gyrotrack, they work pretty well down here in the pine plantations that folks have let go too long to burn. They'll wack down most things and they're designed to get between rows of planted pines so depending on how close some of the trees are it'll leave some islands of underbrush which might be good for the habitat aspect anyway.

[sawguy21]

I live a few hours north of you and know what you are up against. Would a decent sized brush cutter with a three blade brush knife be practical for cutting and maintaining your trails? Also have a look at the Bearcat walk behind trimmers. They can be equipped with a circular brush blade that is fast and effective.

[SwampDonkey]

Of course this advise applies to a clearcut area. It is very difficult to apply with residual overstory comprised of more than 8 cords/acre. You will want to bring all your cut stems to the ground.  A lot of big trees in the lot will inhibit doing this and age you quickly.

If you want to thin out your new growth and select the best crop trees, the best method is to use a brush saw when the lower limbs of the dominant trees start to die and prune up. The hardwood would be around 15 feet by then. Space them 6 feet and start cutting at the end of the growing season. Up here, that is August when the trees start to harden off. That will minimize sprouting off the stumps and by the end of next season the canopy will be almost closed in reducing suckering as well. By 3 years time the crowns will be casting shade over most all the ground. It works up here in northern hardwood as long as you start with a stand that is tall enough and consisting of shade tolerant species. It works on fir and spruce land too, but the limbs don't prune up as quick as in hardwood, but softwood canopy is probably even darker shade. I know in tight spaced softwood up here there is next to nothing for regen in under it. Using a machine will get the brush cut, but the quality of work and the remaining trees will suffer. 30 acres would take 3 guys, 3 weeks to cut, with professional brush saws. $280/acre. How much does a machine cost per acre? I know your charged by the hr by machine, but what is the production? I doubt the job on a machine could be done for less than $10,000, then what have you got left standing.  Maybe the USDA has a thinning subsidy. I can't think that WA wouldn't be doing thinning.

It's hard to post a photo on thinning because you can't see any distance. An aerial view is about the only good photo you could use to demonstrate it.

[timberfaller390]

I have to agree with Tom, a properly applied prescribed burn the right time of year will do more to help your cause than anything. Now that doesn't mean go strike a match to it when the wind is right. A proper benificial controled burn takes careful planning, some equipment and properly trained people to accomplish without harming leave trees or causing a wildfire which you definitly don't want to pay suppression charges for. A small tractor with bucket loader, bush hog and scrape blade will do the trick if you know what you are doing.

[Brian Beauchamp]

Fire will just top kill the nettle in most cases. It will reduce it some, but not eliminate it with a burn or 2. I'd spray it with 2,4-D...burn...and hit it again with the herbicide when it starts to come back. After that, I'd gauge how effective the treatment has been and if it's working well, then continue on that path. If not, come up with another plan of attack.