Smart Car

[pigman]

Bill, that is called qualitative verses quantitative analysis. I never did understand why the government uses that method when measuring the polution from a vehicle. I think that part of the reason we don't see more high MPG small cars sold here in the U S of A.

[DouginUtah]

  But will not market them in the U.S. 

Tundra wil be available with a diesel engine soon.

Sorry, I can't cite the article where I read this.

But, just remember Ron's post of what we get from a barrel of crude:

Finished Motor Gasoline    51.4%
Distillate Fuel Oil    15.3%
Jet Fuel    12.3%
Still Gas    5.4%
Marketable Coke    5.0%
Residual Fuel Oil    3.3%

Add more diesel vehicles and the price of diesel fuel will go up even faster.

[Gary_C]

I believe it is particulates that they are after with the diesels. Ever see someone stand on the throttle on an old Mack? That's particulate matter.

You are correct, but the means to achieve lower particulate emissions requires the highly refined and cleaner burning ULSD as the higher sulfur distilates will contaminate the clean burn and special exhaust filtering systems on these new diesel engines.

But, just remember Ron's post of what we get from a barrel of crude:

Finished Motor Gasoline    51.4%
Distillate Fuel Oil    15.3%
Jet Fuel    12.3%
Still Gas    5.4%
Marketable Coke    5.0%
Residual Fuel Oil    3.3%

Add more diesel vehicles and the price of diesel fuel will go up even faster.

These are not fixed yields by any means. Recent numbers show the gasoline yields running at 44-47 % and distilate fuel oil yields between 26-27 %.

In fact there is a new method of distillation called "hydrocracking" that can be used to increase the yield of distilates. Hydrocracking equipment is now being used more in the EU refineries because they now are using more diesel than gasoline and shipping the surplus gasoline to the US because there are not as many light vehicles with diesels in this country.

Even back in 2005 about half of the light duty vehicles being purchased in the EU were diesels. The EU also has low sulfur regulations but I do not know why those same diesels will not pass EPA regulations for particulate emissions in the US. Perhaps the EU regulations are not quite as strict.

For every thing you want to know about energy, check out this site:  http://www.eia.doe.gov/

[StorminN]

Gary_C,

I'm either confused, or I just don't buy it...

I had been told the reason we don't have many EU diesel vehicles here is because... until just a few months ago, we didn't have ultra low sulphur diesel here, so the catalytic exhausts on the EU diesels would get clogged with the soot from our "dirty" diesel fuel. Now that we have ULSD here, this shouldn't be a problem. So it wasn't really that the EU cars wouldn't meet our emissions standards, it's that our diesel wouldn't meet their exhaust system standards?

The other part is, how can all these diesel vehicles from other countries not pass our emissions tests, yet like Dave mentioned, all our old Macks chug black smoke like a steam train? I own a couple of old sooty GM diesels myself, and in my travels to Italy, Germany and Japan, I've ridden in a lot of diesels, and NONE of them smell or look 1/4 as bad as the the exhaust from a typical American diesel school bus. Now Mexico... that's a different story! Not many small diesels there, all the big trucks smoke like a Mack, and 1/2 the gas cars smell bad, too. I think it's directly related to the number of tune-ups done... little to none?

-Norm.

[Fla._Deadheader]

 Americans are SPOILED 

  When I bought a wrecked Caddy Diesel, my first wife said there was NO WAY she would drive that NOISY thing. Ed and I worked it over, got it inspected, and proceeded to get 37 MPG. Wife drove it once, and, that was HER car. 

  Women can't stand noisy diesels. (Farm Wimmenses is a different matter). 

  Diesels are NOT "Shot" outta the hole, like Dragsters, beating everyone else to the next stoplight.  Diesels are NOT "instant start". Have to actually wait a few seconds for the glowplugs to heat the chambers.    (Brand new ones may be instant start).

  Down here, they are EVERYWHERE. Problem is, price is high. It's the preferred engine
 in pickups, of most farmers.

[Gary_C]

Norm

I guess I am not very clear on my understanding of that either. Apparently the EU has been ahead of the US in requiring ULSD and so if they imported those diesel cars the emission systems would fail because of contamination from the higher sulfur content fuel. That was up until the 2007 model year as the USLD rules went into effect in September of 2007. This is all according to  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-low_sulfur_diesel   if they are right.

Perhaps we are now going to see some of those EU diesel cars in the US.   

I was just talking to the owner of the local International truck dealership and he is still very leary of the new low emission heavy truck engines that were required with this model year. He told me they have some kind of glass ceramic filter on the exhaust. I know the large fleet truck operators bought new trucks for some years ahead to avoid having to buy this new technology, but remember this only applies to heavy truck engines. Apparently the light duty diesel engine technology is better developed in the EU.

[Dave Shepard]

Stormin, the old trucks aren't subject to current emissions standards, that's why they are still chugging. I believe in Mass they have to be 40% opaque, or less, which is a lot of soot.

My former boss just took delivery of a 2008 Navister twin screw with a CAT. Apparently if you ignore the little light telling you to regen the exhaust, it'll shut down the power output and let you coast to the side of the road while it does the regen for you.


Dave

[Reddog]

The EU also has low sulfur regulations but I do not know why those same diesels will not pass EPA regulations for particulate emissions in the US. Perhaps the EU regulations are not quite as strict.

The EU allows more Particulate. They do not need the exhaust filters.
Which is what most makers are struggling with to make the regen function work right.
Nothing like burning more fuel to clean a filter.

[scsmith42]

Back to the topic of the thread...

I test drove a Smart Car today.  It did not handle or ride as goofy as it looks.  The ride reminded me of your typical small german auto - most similar to a VW or older 911 / 914 Porsche.  The performance wasn't bad.

What was really interesting was the shifting.  It seems as if the car has some type of centrifugal clutch and a standard transmission, but it's packaged like an automatic (no clutch pedal).  The car will automatically reduce RPM's when shifting, and you can tell that it's a standard type of transmission.  Very different.

From inside, the car did not feel as small as it looks on the outside.  The cab is relatively roomy; two wide-shouldered adults can sit comfortably without rubbing elbows.  The turning radius is great.

There's just about zero storage space for anything of size though. 

My opinion of the car is that it would make an excellent urban vehicle or commuter car for someone that did not need to transport much baggage.  Would also make a good vehicle choice for a teenager or college student; the lack of being able to take more than one person with them is a plus, and it has a 4 start front crash rating and a 5 star side crash rating (lots of air bags).  They would also probably be a good choice for a senior citizen, and they are not that expensive.

Wait time to receive one is somewhere between 3 - 6 months.

According to the sales rep that I spoke with, they are designed and produced by Mercedes Benz, and the service in the US will be provided by MB as well.  Service intervals are every 10K miles or so.

The sales rep also stated that they had been sold for almost 10 years in Europe.

They are different - but I can see a place for them.  Unfortunately, not a good choice for a farm vehicle...

On a side note, after waiting for months trying to find a new, imported diesel SUV/truck that gets great mileage (50mpg or better), I gave up for now and bought a Prius..  45mpg is hard to pass up, especially when considering that between the wife's Diesel Excursion and my F450, I anticipate that we'll spend over 14K on diesel this year (and I can't run B100 in either of them). 

Well, actually I'm going to lease the Prius for three years and then hopefully there will be some good diesel options available in the US.  Considering the lease price plus the fuel price, if we can reduce driving our trucks by 50% we'll break even.  For every additional 10% shift between the trucks and the Prius, we'll be about $700.00 ahead.

Scott

[Dave Shepard]

You won't just save in fuel costs, that's a lot of rubber and oil changes in those two trucks, plus devaluation due to mileage. What did the dealer say about fuel economy in the Smart Car?


Dave

[Warren]

  But will not market them in the U.S. 

Tundra wil be available with a diesel engine soon.

Sorry, I can't cite the article where I read this.

I have "heard" that there will be a diesel in the Tundra.  But I have never seen anything to substantiate the talk.


A friend of mine is a died in the wool Cummins man.  He has been driving a '97 or '98 W2500  100 miles per day since new.  Over 250K miles and still cranking.  Sunday night, he showed up at church driving a new Ford Focus.  Said that in the 3 weeks the savings in fuel cost are already offsetting the cost of the car.

Warren

[scsmith42]

You won't just save in fuel costs, that's a lot of rubber and oil changes in those two trucks, plus devaluation due to mileage. What did the dealer say about fuel economy in the Smart Car?


Dave

Dave, as I recall, somewhere in the high 30's / low 40's.

[slowzuki]

Smart cars have been around for about 5 years in Canada, one guy in my cubicle farm had one.  Rides fine, he takes it on the highway no trouble except when there are 35-50 mph side winds.  Its diesel, gets great mileage, he'd take his backpacking camping gear, gf and dog with him on trips.  He'd take his scuba gear when he went diving but it had to sit in the passenger seat.

The thing was really zippy, had more hp than the 4 passenger car I had, way faster off the line than any of the sedans in the office.  Packing was a snap, you just drive nose first into the curb and the arse doesn't stick out at all.

Ken

[StorminN]

Slowzuki,

The first time I saw a Smart car was in Paris a couple of winters ago, and it was parked just like you say... perpendicular to the curb! It struck me funny enough at the time that I took a picture.

I wonder why Canada can get the turbo diesel Smart, but we can't? According to the Smart car international web site the diesel in Germany gets 3.31 Liters per 100km... so if my math is right, that's about 71 mpg!

I heard that Swatch (the watch company) originally designed the car, and wanted it to be all-electric... but the battery technology wasn't there however many years ago, so Mercedes bought the design from them and started manufacturing them as diesel and gas.

Since then, I heard some rumors about an all-electric version of the Smart car in the works, with lithium-ion batteries... there have even been some converted aftermarket by a firm called Hybrid Technologies... they are not cheap, however.

MSN article
Hybrid Technologies web site

-Norm.

[Ron Wenrich]

I saw my first one today at the local supermarket.  It looked pretty small, and I bet there are a lot of people in my town that won't fit inside of it.   

[OneWithWood]

Somewhere on YouTube is a video of crash testing the little jewels.  It is amazing how well the thing protects the occupants. 

I am waiting for a diesel/electric hybrid. 

[Brucer]

My good friend Don Mclachlan bought one 4 years ago. Don's a mechanic by trade, and makes his living buying out-of-lease cars and trucks and selling them at a fair price (an honest used-car salesman!). He's also an authorized service rep for Smart cars. By the way, the model is the Smart "fortwo" . Here's some facts:

He gets 90 miles per imperial gallon -- about 75 per US gallon -- with an equal mix of city and highway driving (he's got a diesel).

He has not found a highway in B.C. where he cannot maintain the speed limit, even up the really steephills.

Winter driving is not a problem -- this is snow country where we live.

I've been in his car, and you'd swear it was bigger inside than out.

The body panels snap off and can be purchased separately in a variety of colours -- change the colour of your car when you get bored .

One reason they handle so well is that they're a mid-engine car, the same configuration as most racing cars. And that engine is right down at the bottom of the car.

Barb and I are seriously considering one for our next car purchase. Most of the time it'll accomodate our needs just fine. I've told Don I'd buy one if it came with a trailer for those rare times that we need to carry a bigger load. He's just discovered they sell a trailer hitch for it in Europe, and you can connect a motorcylce trailer to it.

As for gas in the U.S., versus diesel in Canada, here's the story Don gave me. The manufacturer did a lot of research before trying to market them in North America. The consultants survey's showed that Americans would simply not want to buy them, but Canadians would. So they started selling the high-mileage diesels in Canada. After about 4 years of this, Roger Penske decided the US was ready for this type of vehicle, so undertook to import them himself. However, he figured the high price tag of the diesel would put many people off, so he only imported the gas powered version (which gets much lower mileage).

[Ed]

Here's the Smart car I'm gonna get. 
 



Ed

[Modat22]

Wouldn't bother me to buy one and drive it, I got over vehical appearances long ago. If my 6 foot 7 inch frame is comfortable, the mechanics are solid and reliable, can handle a bit of snow/ice, and alot of rain I'm happy.

I have a 07 prius I bought jan 02 07 and I'm very happy with it, I drive it 150 miles a day and average 51 miles a gallon or 515 +/- per 10 gallons. The only trouble I've had with the car is the passenger wiper arm (which is a bad design) which developed a squeek due to bad lubracation and stress on the bushings. I made some bushings on my lathe from high quality pre lubed brass stock and fixed that issue myself.

[LeeB]

 I make my passengers wipe themselves.