Felling Cuts

[Gary_C]

I just finished sawing a bunch of blocking for a construction company. They had cleared a site last fall  for a new store and decided to save the trees for their own use. The tree service guy that cut the trees for them was kind of mad because he told them he had the logs sold. 

I took my Woodmizer to their yard and cut those nail infested logs with .055 9 deg blades and just ignored the zings unless it knocked the set out of the blade. It was just blocking after all. The hardest pieces off their cut list were the 4" x 16" x 12 foot planks.

These pictures are the butt cuts on some of the logs.

 

 

 

You can certainly say the tree service guy was consistent in the method he used to fell those trees. Most all the butts had tails.

During the recent Logsafe training session the instructor did talk about how the loggers in the SE part of the state do not as a rule use the bore cut method, but many are converting. We did have an older logger that was found dead under a tree he had cut and they determined the tree fell the wrong way.

However these tree service guys do not take the Logsafe training, it is primarily loggers. Sure looks like they need some training.

[Tom]

I find the hinge arrangement intriguing.  Did you see the log separated from the stump?  How did he do it?

[Gary_C]

I am not sure just how he cut them. If I had to guess, I'd say he cut half way through and then made that notch cut. Then cut from the back till it tipped over.

But what purpose did the notch serve? He still left a ledge that pulled fibers from both the stump and the butt log.

[Kevin]

It looks like he's dutching the bottom cut of the conventional notch in the face.
Very unique and dangerous.

[Dave Shepard]

This is why every chainsaw should be sold with a copy of Funamentals of General Tree Work. Just my humble opinion.


Dave

[woodmills1]

they sure look like widow maker cuts to me.   My tree service guys are real care full, using wedges and slow cuts checking then a little more cut, and these are just the boles, with limbs and tops gone from climbing or bucket truck.

[RSteiner]

I think the pictures imply that just because you know how to start a chainsaw it doesn't mean you know how to fall a tree.

I must admit that when I first started cutting trees my cuts looked very similar.  However, after watching Soren Ericson demonstrate a better way I don't make cuts like that any more. 

Randy

[snowman]

Gary find out what that guys name is and that type of undercut can be named after him. I have sure never seen it before. Maybe he's a genius, an inventor,  the einstein of falling, maybe we will all use that undercut someday! He should patent it even.

[Dave Shepard]

I think "The Deadman" or "The Dead Dutchman" would be good names for it.


Dave

[snowman]

On second thought maybe I have seen that stump before. The guy used to yell "UP THE HILL, DOWN THE HILL! ****,   JUST RUN!!!!! 

[Coon]

    

[leweee]

  ethnic terms for miscuts.....just don't cut it in this  PC day & age.
   Poor  Dutchman !

[woodsteach]

Ok I understand the cut is incorrect but will someone diagram what, how he made this cut I'm not quite putting it all together.

Thanks

woodsteach

[beenthere]

woodsteach
I think that is the question...just trying to figure out how the person made the cut. 

Maybe someone will sketch up how they think it happened. I've an idea from the comments, but not good enough to draw it up. 

[beenthere]

Here is how I think the cuts may have happened (possibly 1st and 2nd are in reverse order).

 

[Ianab]

I think it just proves the theory that if you give enough monkeys enough chainsaws they will eventually cut a tree down. 

I'm not quite sure what he was trying to achieve.

Ian

[Gary_C]

I think beenthere has it right. I also think that a bucket truck was used to limb those trees before felling. If you have ever dropped one of those semi open grown bur oak trees, you know the problems are just starting when you fell the tree. They can be the most contrary things to limb when the trunk is still at eye level because those huge branches are still holding them up off the ground.

But even then, that is no way to fell even the trunk of a tree. Even without the limbs, one of those logs would squash you flat in a heartbeat. I had a good sized skidloader with forks to move those logs around and most of those logs were more than it wanted to lift.

Making that hinge so deep into the tree and then cutting the notch part way back just makes no sense to me. As I said before, every one of those logs had tails pulled from the stump or fibers pulled from the log and some had both.

I just can't imagine how the cutter expected to sell those logs. Also if you look at the butt, you can see the telltale purple stains and they were telling the truth. 

[Kevin]

This is what it would look like on the tree.

[sharp edge]

I could see having one log butt look like that, not all of them. Seen Dad make cuts something like that, then take axe and chop the notch, making the tree go down 180 from the way it was leaning.
SE

[woodsteach]

Thank you guys!  I'm always trying to learn  more to keep safe.  Down here it's all flat cutting very few notches.  Cut the front then go to the back and cut fast and hope you judged the lean of the tree correctly.  If all goes well ya do it again on the next one.  "Notching takes too much time"  Is what I'm told.

woodsteach

[beenthere]

woodsteach
There are good and smart ways to cut trees, which can be found on this forum.
And there will always be those who 'get by' doing it the way you describe the locals do there.
If you want safe, do the cuts right and have a much better chance of not getting hurt or killed, and also end up with a downed tree that is not split up the middle or with damaged (lost) wood in the butt log.

[BaldBob]

"Notching takes too much time"
What's a little time, when by not notching there's a good chance that you'll have all of eternity to ponder your choice of action ? 

[Tom]

Not notching  creates a barber chair.   Barber chairs kill. 

With no notch in the direction of fall, the kerf will close.  Even a small notch will close when the tree begins to fall.  The resulting pressures cause the trunk to split up the middle and the back of the tree to shoot bckwards and upwards toward the feller.  It's no place to be.  If the tree does fall, and goes in the right direction, the split tree may close back up and trap a hapless feller inside.  It happened to a friend of mine and he almost lost his head.  He did wake up in the hospital with his ears almost torn off, scalped and a concussion.  His trembling brother and Dad were at his bedside.  They had to extract him and thought he was dead.

Trees that jump backwards off of the stump can impale you, break bones with more ease than a punch from a prize fighter or squash you against another tree, or the ground.

I've seen folks take trees down without using any notches or other technology, but have since learned how foolish it is.  Death is instantaneous only if you are lucky.  But, it is always final. 

[jim king]

Standard Amazonian cut,

[leweee]

beavers cut

[farmerdoug]

Years ago when my dad sold timber from our woods I remember hearing the foreman of the crew telling the feller he had just hired something scary.  He said" notches waste valuable butt wood so no notches or just notch the root swells".  Even though at that time all I had ever cut was firewood that sounded crazy to me.  It still makes me shutter today when I think about it.  I am glad no one was hurt on our farm when they were logging.

[Kevin]

For the most part it's just honestly not knowing any better.

[rockenbman]

I dont think after a 30 pack of cold beer could make cut a tree like that  stand back 300 plus feet when that bunch are working.

[Ironwood]

I am no logger, and have seen my fair bit of "techniques" out there. This is all from the professionals in my region. I drop maybe, 5 big trees a year. The most interesting is a fellow FF member who takes very little depth for the notch. In his training this how it was shown. He has logged all his life and cut thousands of trees, and you know it reminds me of Farmerdog's post "taking just the root swell off". The back cut is then longer and I guess considering the physics of the "Tom " barber pole sketch,  it makes sense. The majority of the mass in the tree is to the rear of the hindge and seems it would be much less likely to barber pole. Just my observation.

                   ironwood

[Dale Hatfield]

I need to learn spanish so i can help train in places like jims pic. 

[snowman]

I'll have to admit a bad habit, I sometimes don't notch trees. Little ones anyway. If they have a good lean and a precise lay isn't an issue, I will sometimes zip em off. It does save time and in small timber you can cut as fast as the tree falls so theres no barberchair. Maybe it's from a life time of working gypo, by the log, by the load or by the thousand. Have to keep that clicker turning! Maybe if I worked by the hour I'd feel different, who knows.

[Rick Alger]

My guess is somebody notched and back-cut those trees to drop them by the domino method. ( a bunch at a time) Then  somebody else pushed them over backwards. That meant some poor soul  had to zip them off the stump with the third cut.

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

The first time I used a specific technique on a leaner was on an 18" Cherry.
Here is a sketch similar to others which have been posted before:


Step one was a shallow face notch.
Next, I followed with a plunge cut behind the hinge area and above the center of the notch.
         That plunge was expanded away from the hinge, leaving
         a strap at the back of the stump which was almost three inches thick.
The last cut was lower than the plunge. (shown in blue)

I mistakenly took too much wood away at the hinge, causing the tree to sit down
on the saw bar.  I used a second saw to cut the strap/release cut.

What impressed me about that experience is that it was safe, even though I botched
the thickness of the hinge.  In spite of that, the tree was still held safely, until I cut the
strap.  Once the strap was cut, the tree fell safely and predictably.

[Kevin]

Here's a Birch that wanted to split out even after I took the top off it .
Two cinch straps above and below the cut saved a barberchair.



It was this other side that gave the indication it might split out ...

[jokers]

Here is how I think the cuts may have happened (possibly 1st and 2nd are in reverse order).

 (Image hidden from quote, click to view.)

That one would have to be called the Swinging Dead Dutchman! 

[jokers]

I mistakenly took too much wood away at the hinge, causing the tree to sit down
on the saw bar.  I used a second saw to cut the strap/release cut.

What impressed me about that experience is that it was safe, even though I botched
the thickness of the hinge.  In spite of that, the tree was still held safely, until I cut the
strap.  Once the strap was cut, the tree fell safely and predictably.

Phil,

If I`m reading this right, you made your hinge so thin that it collapsed, causing the bar to be pinched? It`s my opinion that if the hinge collapsed, it has been severely compromised and it`s not nearly as safe as it may have seemed to you. I`m curious to know what others think.

[Kevin]

I can see the bar getting pinched if the bore was on the same plane as the apex and too far advanced to where there was very little or no hinge and the tree just sat down on the bar, just a guess on my part.

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

I think that what happened is this diagram.   It is a cross-sectional view of
the cutting area.    Needless to say,  I don't want to compromise hinge wood
like that again.

The hinge seemed to crush a bit on one side, just enough to lock the bar, but had
a good bit of wood left on the far side of the hinge.

[zackman1801]

thats strange because usually all of the holding wood in the back will keep the tree from tipping too far. how wide was you hinge at the lowest point?  btw how big was the tree?

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

In technical terms...

Idunno!

It surprised me too.  I just knew I wanted to get that last cut
of the holding wood done and get out of there.   It wasn't a huge Black Cherry
tree, maybe 22" at the cut level and 19-20 dbh.

[zackman1801]

so it was a fairly large tree, not huge but bigger than your average firewood tree.  ive seen people get their bars pinched before because they let the saw sit while they reach for thier  wedges and the tree settles back in the cut, but this usually only happens on trees that you dont borecut and just come in from the back, most of the time you wont pinch your bar in a borecut because of the hinge and the holding wood.

[ScottAR]

I fall about as many as Reid.  Since I've learned the bore cut it's about all
I do anymore unless it's a really small tree.  Like 6-8" or so. 

I notch em all regardless... 

[Ianab]

I think that what happened is this diagram.   It is a cross-sectional view of
the cutting area.    Needless to say,  I don't want to compromise hinge wood
like that again.

The hinge seemed to crush a bit on one side, just enough to lock the bar, but had
a good bit of wood left on the far side of the hinge. (Image hidden from quote, click to view.)

Been there, done that. Exactly how you drew it. The tree gave a little creak and settled on the bar 

Same outcome, took the powerhead off and released the back strap with another saw. In this case the tree had a heavy foward lean, so yes the hingewood was compromised, but there was only one direction it was going. It was just a misjudgement on my part, large tree (~36") on the side of a hill, it was awkward to get at, and I didn't get the angles right. 

Even with the problem I still believe it was MUCH safer than a conventional backup would have been in that situration. (large heavy leaner prone to barberchairing)

Ian

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

That was my point, also, Ianab:  Safer, in spite of me. Lack of practice was
the culprit for me - just had not done a lot of boring cuts.

Even though it was not a great cut, it was still much safer.
This was a leaner, just not so big. 

Phil L.