Hydrogen/Brown's gas

[Ron Wenrich]

So, I've been reading a bunch about how if you make some hydrogen on board your car, you should be able to improve your gas milage.  Now, I could go out and do all the experiments and get neat bubbles to appear on steel plates; but, I wanted something that was already built.  It feel it saves me a bunch of time.  Besides, youtube has a bunch of young kids that have already made the hydrogen and have loads of video to watch.

I decided to shop around on eBay for a unit.  There are lots of them there, as well as all kinds of plans and scams.  I decided to go with a unit that looked like it was made with a little ingenuity and some engineering skill.  Those ones made with sewer pipe just didn't fit the bill.

I settled on a Super Hydro 2.  The unit is made out of stainless steel.  It also has a bubbler that recycles the water, and that keeps the unit cool. 

My truck's pretty new, and I didn't want to ruin my engine, so, I talked someone else into letting me put it on his truck.  He helps me out around the homestead, and watches the place when I go on trips.  We ended up putting it on his '95 Dodge Ram 350 V-8. 

Here's what the unit looks like:

 

We mounted it with velcro strips for easy removal.  The bubbler is the way you add fluid and is to the left.

They said that it would be a 45 minute installation.  It took us that long just to figure out where to put it.     Basically, we mounted everything, ran a hose to the air cleaner, run wire to the battery and put in a dash switch.  Here's what it looks like:

 

For water, we decided to run baking soda instead of a vinegar solution.  We also put some dry gas in the mix so it wouldn't freeze.  2 days later it got really cold and it all froze up.  It took a week for it to thaw out.  In the meantime, we got an extender for the oxygen sensor so the check engine light wouldn't come on. 

So, on to testing the unit.  I bought a scan guage that connects to your on board computer.  That tells you what your gas milage, rpm, etc is running.  My helper isn't too good with statistics and I've had a hard time getting him to track his milage.  Apparently he can't afford to fill his tank up, then check it once a week.   

I did get him to write down his milage on a daily basis and from that I've come up with an improvement from 17.7 mpg to 20.5 mpg or a 16% increase.  He has also noticed that his truck is running about 25° cooler.  The inreased milage does not come from the hydrogen energy, but comes from improving the efficiency of the engine.  We've also come to the conclusion that his oxygen sensor probably isn't working, since it was supposed to be replaced at 60K miles and right now he's at 135K miles.

Another thing that we aren't sure about is whether we have enough baking soda in the mix.  We have doubled the baking soda and will be checking to see what kind of amps we're drawing.  Its supposed to be at least 10 amps. 

Tomorrow or Saturday we're putting on another unit on my 2005 Toyota.  I know I get 22 mpg just driving around.  Its been pretty steady through all the years.  The scan guage also has verified the same milage.  We shall see how it goes. 

[Fla._Deadheader]

 From what I have been gathering, the computer on the engine will eventually override the boost gas, and you will revert back to the same mileage.

  There are things to do that will "Trick" the computer, to do things that YOU want it to do. 

[Don_Papenburg]

I have read a little about that stuff also .  It is interesting all the claims of improvement of milageof more than 50%  . i would like to get my 3/4 TChevy up to the 30MPG range .   One guy made a claim that his units would get 15 to 30% increase but he claimed that his 95Buick Lesabre would get up to 100 MPG.

[Dave Shepard]

This is very encouraging. How far do you have to go to recoup on the investment?


Dave

[Fla._Deadheader]

 Still can't reduce a link 

 http://www.pamdemocrat.org/Newspaper/Details.
cfm?Nz=%247GIJ2%20%20%20%0A&Iz=%24
(BXD%230%20%20%0A

[Fla._Deadheader]

 Google up  Hydro Assist Fuel Cell 

[Dave Shepard]

{url=http://website.com}Name you want displayed{/url}  Replace those brackets for the other  brackets [ ] and it should work.


Deadheadaers link

Lets see if that works.


Dave

[Radar67]

Is this the link you were trying to post?

FDH Link

[Coon]

I just wonder what the mileage increase would be on my little firefly turbo.  I'm already getting 45-50 mpg with it.  Would love to get say even 75 but boy oh boy would it be a challenge to find a place to mount it, but I know it could be done.  What are the dimensions of the unit itself?  What kind of price would I be looking at to get one?

Where does one look to purchase one of these units.  If the price is right I would really like to attempt this kind of project

[Ron Wenrich]

Price of the unit depends on the size of the motor.  Up to 7.2 liter, you dan get away with a single, which runs about $400.  The double is for larger units and run about $700.  That's a lot better than some of the others that can run well over $1200.

Payback depends on how much you drive.  If you're running a big rig that gets 6 mpg and run 1,000 miles per week, then a 1 mpg increase would pay itself back in about 2 months with fuel @ $4.25.  After that, your savings are about $100/week.  If you only do a little bit of driving, then the payback would be a lot longer. 

As for fooling the computer, that's where the O2 extender comes in.  Supposedly, you're looking at having a higher percentage of O2 in the mix, since you're not sending in pure hydrogen, but a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen.  When you pull the O2 sensor back, it can't sniff out the increase in O2, so it leans out the engine.  Claims are made that just by pulling back the sensor you can increase your milage from 10-20%.  I haven't found that to be true.

I'm skeptical of the claims of running a car on a high amount of hydrogen that is produced on board.  The dynamics of converting water to hydrogen takes energy.  You can't get more energy from a system than what's been put in.  I saw one estimate by a guy who built an eletrolizer that it would take 80 hp just to produce enough hydrogen to cruise down the highway in an average car.  The only way it would be possible is if the hydrogen runs the engine at a very high efficiency rate as compared to oil based fuels.  I've read that gasoline engines run at about 35% efficiency, so there's a lot of room for improvement.

[Don P]

I think you are using about 1/4 horsepower to make 120 watts of power so the improvement in burning characterisitics has to overcome this burden first then it can work on improving fuel economy.

[Fla._Deadheader]

  Ever heard of Stanley Meyer   There are others that actually HAVE units that produce way more Hyd-Oxy than normal Electrolysis.

  It's called Over Unity. Uses very high voltage and a MAX of 2 amps. 

  There are folks using a sort of static electricity to run the units.

  Try oupower.com   or  Water fuel cell.com  Be prepared for LOTS of reading 

[StorminN]

Ron,

I've got a couple of questions about the unit you bought... does it have a separate electronics unit, like an amp or anything that goes with it, or is it simply a wire that runs into the unit itself and powers the plates? (ie., is it a "brute force" electrolizer, or does it have a pulser built in?). Does the unit always put out the same amount of OH, or is it variable? Did the folks that sold it to you say anything about running it with a water and KOH solution? I have a friend that has built a couple of electrolizers, and that's what he's used.

As far as the oxygen sensor goes, which sensor are you talking about? Does the Dodge just have one after the catalytic converter? Is it a four wire (heated) or single wire sensor? I don't understand what you're saying about the "pulling the O2 sensor back"... do you mean further down the tailpipe? Most O2 sensors output between 0.0 to 1.0V, so 0.5 volts would be right in the middle. Seems like you could add a variable resistor inline to trick the computer into seeing what you wanted it to. I'm not sure whether a lower voltage means a rich mixture, though. If low voltage means lean mixture, then it would take a circuit inline that boosts the voltage to make it work... just thinking out loud here...

I've shied away from learning more about this stuff because my brain is only so big (and the buffer is full) and I've been running diesel rigs for so long... but I just this week bought a '90 Subaru wagon because diesel prices are killing me... this Subaru is fuel injected, so I guess it's time to learn!

From what I've gathered, these electrolizer units can really work if you feed them with a high voltage, low amperage square wave pulse at around 43k? (if I remember correctly). It's at that point that you start putting in less energy (via electricity) than you start getting out (via hp). I've sent this thread to my friend, hopefully he will register here and chime in...

-Norm.

[Sprucegum]

My BIL was looking at a unit for his big rig, sorry I don't remember the name off hand. They claimed a 10-15% savings. The real bonus was it didn't matter if it froze, the electric current would melt the amount of water needed as it worked. The initial price was reasonable but he would be required to let them do all his maintenance work and 24/7 monitoring of his rig's performance. He's too independent and antisocial fer that! 

[Fla._Deadheader]

 As usual, it's , BUYER BEWARE 

  LOTS of claims. I'm reading about experimenters that share info. THEN, I would buy something. 

[Ron Wenrich]

Norm

Its a single electrode.  The seperate electronics that you hear about is for pulsing, which is supposed to give more hydrogen.  That just gives a big burst of energy, then slacks off, if my understanding is correct.  I don't see any commercial units using pulsing electronics at the present time.  A lot of that comes under the notion of theory, along with alot of the other stuff you see about hydrogen. 

The technology right now is to increase the milage, not run on hydrogen.  Afterall, you're not producing just hydrogen.  You would have to seperate the gases, which isn't done right now. 

KOH is simply an electrolyte that you need to deliver the juice to produce the hydrogen.  Ordinary tap water doesn't work.  KOH is lye, and is pretty caustic.  That's why I shy away from KOH.  You can use salt water, but chlorine gas is a byproduct.  I've also seen where they used battery acid.  Vinegar or baking soda can be used, which is easily gotten at the grocery store, and won't take the paint off your car. 

The oxygen sensor that's being pulled back is the one further down the tail pipe.  Its done with a nipple extension that pulls the sensor back about 3/4".  Without this, some cars won't get any results or actually have poorer gas milage with the hydrogen.  Too much O2 would make the computer adjust the fuel mixture to something richer. 

Harold

There are lots of claims out there.  Having a car that is run by 80% water is one of them.  There is a competition right now to build a car that delivers 100 mpg.  The prize is $10 million.  How many of those cars are entered?  Zero.

[Dale Hatfield]

I have a a download that i bought , in my quest to learn more about hydrogen. It has a build list and material needed to make it . I however have not built any part of it .I think its just a quest for me to learn more . I can share this file if yall want to see what my money got me.   

Dale

Update >>>>>
Send me a PM with an Email and ill send the PDF file. OR ill send it to somebody and they can post it here somehow.
Dale

[Larry]

KOH is simply an electrolyte that you need to deliver the juice to produce the hydrogen.  Ordinary tap water doesn't work.  KOH is lye, and is pretty caustic.  That's why I shy away from KOH.  You can use salt water, but chlorine gas is a byproduct.  I've also seen where they used battery acid.  Vinegar or baking soda can be used, which is easily gotten at the grocery store, and won't take the paint off your car. 

If you can find it try washing soda...I like it better than baking soda.  I mostly use KOH but for a different application where caustic isn't a problem.

[Coon]

Dale that would be great if you could share that info with us.

[DangerousDave]

Hi All

Got a link to this From Norm.
I have been working with this a few years now and there is a LOT of DisInfo out there!
First off is the Electrolyte used.
Only use KOH (Potassium Hydroxide) available on Ebay  through Summer Bee Meadow
or         NaOH (sodium Hydroxide ) 

anything else produces unwanted results....

Using baking soda is bad in a number of ways.

1. The carbon in baking soda combines with oxygen during the
reaction, forming carbon monoxide.

2. The resultant gas is not hydroxy gas, but is a highly toxic blend
of hydrogen and carbon monoxide.

3. A gas leak can be lethal to anyone around the device.

4. Carbon binds with the catalytic compounds in the electrodes,
causing carbon poisoning.

5. Carbon poisoning at first reduces, then eliminates, a catalytic
reaction from occuring.

6. As the catalytic compounds are poisoned, efficiency drops to well
below Faraday.

7. The electrodes will have to be resurfaced to remove this carbon
poisoning.

8. Baking soda is a consumable, not a catalyst.

9. As carbon is consumed from the baking soda, it converts into
sodium hydroxide.

10. Energy goes into the consumption of baking soda, that could
otherwise be used to liberate hydroxy gas.

Summary: After the toxic gas is emitted, and destruction of the
catalytic qualities of the electrodes, the end result is a dilute
sodium hydroxide electrolyte solution. Why not just use sodium
hydroxide to begin with?


SALT:
Burning chlorine gas will ruin an engine. It becomes hydrochloric
acid when burned!

Baking soda can chemically alter quality stainless steel so that it
no longer resists corrosion. It will also bond with the trace metals
that are normally used in forming the catalytic layer, destroying the
catalytic capabilities. For those that use salt, the salt breaks down
into sodium hydroxide and chlorine. The chlorine damages the plates
through corrosion.

I will post more later
Dave

[ronwood]

Dave,

Welcome to the forum. Looking forward to hearing more about your experiences.

Ron

[Ron Wenrich]

I will echo Ron's words.

Since you don't like baking soda, would you prefer vinegar instead?  Or is NaOH a better electrolyte?

[DouginUtah]

Does this fit into what you guys are talking about?

Water fuel cell

[DangerousDave]

I will echo Ron's words.

Since you don't like baking soda, would you prefer vinegar instead?  Or is NaOH a better electrolyte?

KOH or NaOH are the best and actually only electrolytes that should be used KOH being the better of the two.

Anything else just contaminates the process or damages the electrodes and either one can be got pretty easily. anyplace that sells soap making supplies will have it. Drain cleaners aren't a very good option either because of the  Other stuff they put in there.

[DangerousDave]

Norm

Its a single electrode.  The seperate electronics that you hear about is for pulsing, which is supposed to give more hydrogen.  That just gives a big burst of energy, then slacks off, if my understanding is correct.  I don't see any commercial units using pulsing electronics at the present time.  A lot of that comes under the notion of theory, along with alot of the other stuff you see about hydrogen. 

The technology right now is to increase the milage, not run on hydrogen.  Afterall, you're not producing just hydrogen.  You would have to seperate the gases, which isn't done right now. 

  OK  anything over 2v (1.7 prefer) per cell (2 electrodes) is just wasted producing steam and heat, this can be controlled somewhat by electrolyte concentration and also By Pulse Width Modulation (PWM) similar to motor speed control. which allows more KOH to get more amps per volt, again too much amps creates waste.

Now with a Series style cell for 12v (13.7) system you would need 7 cells to divide the voltage properly you apply + to one end plate then have 6 neutral plates then - on the other end plate.  (+>l l l l l l l l<- ) using 316L stainless for the plate material.

Using a series cell one can progress to Resonant mode electrolysis instead of Brute Force this is where the frequency part comes in to play to create a resonant condition between the plates to disassociate the water into H H O (Hydroxy) which is ready to be used with a LOT more power in it then just Hydrogen Gas don't try to separate it.

  KOH is lye, and is pretty caustic.  That's why I shy away from KOH. 

 The KOH only needs to be added to the cell when initially put in to service,, it is a catalyst NOT a Consumable such as BakingSoda, it will remain in the cell and concentrate as the water is used and then dilute back down when water is added.


More Later

Dave

[Dave Shepard]

Welcome DangerousDave. I've been called that before.

Very interesting stuff!


Dave

[farmerdoug]

I have a question about pulling the oxygen sensor back so it will not sense a lean fuel mix. 

First off lean fuel mixes are bad for the newer engines especially aluminum heads.  Have you guys had any problems with that yet?

Secondly,  A lean fuel mix produces alot more nitrious oxides which is the a pollutant and is a leading reason of acid rain.  This will also ruin your catlytic converers too.  Have you guys addressed these problems also?

[Ron Wenrich]

OK Dave, I think you sold me on the KOH.  Here's my question.  This system has an exterior tank that acts like a bubbler.  It also circulates the electrolyte and helps keep the unit cool.  Will the electrolyte ever need any adding to it to keep the fluid levels up?  What is the mix spec for the KOH?

Doug

I don't know of any problems.  Supposedly, the addition of the hydroxy to the air runs the engine at a higher efficiency and lowers the pollutant output.  I had my truck inspected just a few weeks ago, and they monitor the tailpipe output.  I'll have to see if I can get a test done at the local mechanic and see if we can make a comparison.

[jmsiowa]

Dale,
     Thanks for the PDF's.  I can't get the wps files to open   But just from reading the pdf's my head hurts.
John

[beenthere]

jmsiowa
Couldn't understand your comment, until I saw that you changed the subject line...

What system are you using that you can't get the wps files to open?

[Corley5]

Will this work on a carburated non computer controlled engine 

[DangerousDave]

Will this work on a carburated non computer controlled engine 

YES that is the preferred engines to use other than Diesel. Just try to avoid the Mid 80s Feedback Carburated models as they are an attempt at computer control.

[DangerousDave]

Ron..
With your system I would flush the system with distilled water. Take the cell apart and clean the tubes with distilled water then, wearing latex gloves so you don't get oils from fingers on them, sand cross hatch into outside of inner tube and inside of outer tube with 80grit then rinse with distilled water again and put back together.

Then fill the system up with distilled water only and put an amp gage on the power feed fire it up and slowly add KOH until it pulls about ~10amps. you need to add the KOH slowly as it gets very hot while it dissolves.  Also be sure and either have the engine running or remove the output line to the intake and vent it safely while the cell is powered up.

After you get the ~10amps hook it up and run the engine  after it wets warmed up the amps should come up some you can play with the KOH ratio a little from there but there is a point where more won't do anything except make heat and steam(waste energy).

Once you get it set you can check it with a Hydrometer for reference. you may occasionally need to add a little koh but not very often.

The longer you use it the better it will work as it will build up a white catalytic layer on the plates this is good don't clean it off.
 


Doug...

"First off lean fuel mixes are bad for the newer engines especially aluminum heads.  Have you guys had any problems with that yet?"

When adding Hydroxy Boost you are not leaning out the gas/air ratio you are adding another fuel source to the mix which adds to a cleaner more complete burn.  so by tweeking the O2sensor the computer won't try to add more fuel and contaminate the mix.

When gas lean burns it produces heat that will damage the engine and produces Nox and CO.  Hydroxy will lean burn just fine like diesel does, less fuel less power, more fuel more power it also burns a lot faster so if you are boosting enough you will need to retard the timing a bit which will also help emissions.


DouginUtah

The Meyer system is on the same line but is a Completely Different tech. his methods of water Cracking goes into a whole different realm unfortunately his patents are not complete, he kept his secrets, although there are a few very sharp people working on it that understand what he was really doing and are real close.   The Extra energy introduced into the system is similar to the resonant plate cell system but derived in a different way.

Research the  BOB BOYCE system to gain more in depth understanding of the series resonate cell. He is still with us and continuing research in this field.


later
Dave

 

[Corley5]

So it'd work on an 84 350 Chevy with a Quadra Junk    I'm interested now 

[slowzuki]

I would be very skeptical of any of these claims.  A modern engine and be made to get better mileage and pollute more with a simple reburned chip (advance ignition timing, reduce richness of mix, adjust valve timing) rather than an expensive and convoluted electrolysis process.

Does anyone have a detailed energy balance of this process done for an engine that maintains its pollution levels the same for HC, CO and NOx?

[jmsiowa]

jmsiowa
Couldn't understand your comment, until I saw that you changed the subject line...

What system are you using that you can't get the wps files to open?

I'm using WinXP with MS office.   Apparently WPS is a works file that excel doesn't like.  Tried Star Office from Google and it didn't like the file either.  The WPS files contained parts lists for each device I believe.
John

[Norm]

Welcome to the forum John, good to have another Iowa member on board.

[DangerousDave]

So it'd work on an 84 350 Chevy with a Quadra Junk    I'm interested now 

Yup. The Pre Emission ones are the best to work with then you don't need to mess with the O2s etc.

And DON'T use Platinum Plugs the platinum is a catalyst to turn the Hydroxy back to water.

[DangerousDave]

  A modern engine and be made to get better mileage and pollute more with a simple reburned chip (advance ignition timing, reduce richness of mix, adjust valve timing) rather than an expensive and convoluted electrolysis process.

Yes and by advancing the timing, and Leaning out the Air/fuel ratio with gas alone you increase the combustion temp. due to Lean Burn and also increase the emissions output.

But if you Boost with Hydroxy you DON'T LEAN BURN the gas mixture instead you add a catalyst to the mix that gives you a better more complete burn of the Petrol that is there hence the O2 sensor thinking it is running lean because there is less unburned petrol coming out the pipe.

You can also build your own booster fairly inexpensively with off the shelf stuff from Hardware store that will work very good one example is google Smack Booster it is a very efficient brute force booster made from stainless switch plate covers.

Does anyone have a detailed energy balance of this process done for an engine that maintains its pollution levels the same for HC, CO and NOx

I'm sure somebody somewhere does but I haven't heard of anybody running a booster not passing emissions tests.

Dave

[Don P]

I can see what you all are talking about, it doesn't take much nitrous at all to change the burning characteristics alot.  I wonder if you can make nitrous onboard 
If the O₂ sensor is just a resistor what about a rheostat and some form of output on the dash so you can dial it in, sounds like you are "fooling" it and removing it from the loop effectively?

There must be a chemical equation showing a typical burn of gasoline and then this "enhanced" burn adding more H and O. That would give the quantity of gas needed to reach this better burning condition. Then working backwards figure the volume of needed H₂O gas from the displacement and rpm. When you take the hose off and stick it in a bag or inverted bucket of water... how much gas is being produced, or, how many miles per gallon of water are you getting?

[ronwood]

Why can't the car manufactures build an engine that sends less unburned petro down the tailpipe?

But if you Boost with Hydroxy you DON'T LEAN BURN the gas mixture instead you add a catalyst to the mix that gives you a better more complete burn of the Petrol that is there hence the O2 sensor thinking it is running lean because there is less unburned petrol coming out the pipe.

Ron

[DangerousDave]

Why can't the car manufactures build an engine that sends less unburned petro down the tailpipe?

Ron,  It's not a matter of why Can't they it's why WON'T they.......
But that is a whole nother issue that a lot of people don't want to accept that exists. It is mainly why I am in this field of research and the Hydroxy is just a small part of it.

If the O₂ sensor is just a resistor what about a rheostat and some form of output on the dash so you can dial it in, sounds like you are "fooling" it and removing it from the loop effectively?

It is more than a resistor but there are some circuits out there that will allow you to adjust them one is here http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/D17.pdf

There must be a chemical equation showing a typical burn of gasoline and then this "enhanced" burn adding more H and O. That would give the quantity of gas needed to reach this better burning condition. Then working backwards figure the volume of needed H₂O gas from the displacement and rpm. When you take the hose off and stick it in a bag or inverted bucket of water... how much gas is being produced, or, how many miles per gallon of water are you getting?

Basically any helps and the more Hydroxy the better until you can produce enough to eliminate the Petrol completely. But after a certain point you will need to work on Ignition timing to accommodate the faster burn of the Hydroxy and eliminate any Waste Spark if your engine has it.  Another reason to stick with the Older Rigs.

[ronwood]

Dave

Ron,  It's not a matter of why Can't they it's why WON'T they.......
But that is a whole nother issue that a lot of people don't want to accept that exists. It is mainly why I am in this field of research and the Hydroxy is just a small part of it.

I was thinking that was the reason.

Ron

[karl]

Been reading about hydrogen generators for a while now and until this thread was becoming more confused and about ready to give up.

Thanks all for the info and sites

I don't have anything to contribute, but I hope this keeps going.

I'm certainly going to try a simple unit on  one of the engines around the Sandbox.

[Dale Hatfield]

I  have been wanting to try a unit on my cummins ram  but thats an costly motor to test with.
I just hit 200,000 and im going for 500 or more.
Dale

[DangerousDave]

I  have been wanting to try a unit on my cummins ram  but thats an costly motor to test with.
I just hit 200,000 and im going for 500 or more.
Dale

Hi Dale
A good Booster won't hurt your diesel any just make sure and use a Bubbler.
Do you have a Turbo on it ?

Got your Email Thanks
hope you didn't pay much for it ....
most everything in there is FREE online. but there is some GOOD info there.
The Hydrostar is .. well......Hmm .... All I'll say is I know of NO ONE who has ever even got it to do close to what they claim, and the electronics don't work as posted, the fets overheat and a few other problems. I don't think whoever came up with that ever actually built it. For as long as it's been around  everyone should have one if it works. anyhow enough on that , their ideas are sound but .....

Now the Smack booster works great and the D9 pdf is full of great info too especially the Bob Boyce system but the files you have are outdated there is a LOT of new info on his system in the updated files

Go here http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/index.html
 and you can download the most recent docs. plus there is a bunch of other great info there
Well I just checked it to get you the direct link and apparently he moved the Devices files somewhere else so I will check with him and see where they went then give you the link.
but there is still a lot of great stuff there. I will Email you the current copies if I can't find Patrick's  link

This site also has a lot of info
http://panaceauniversity.org/
also check out their Main Page.


KARL:

 If you boost a B&S style small engine be careful of the Waste spark. start the engine before you turn on the booster so it doesn't get any Hydroxy in the system to ignite while starting

[Dale Hatfield]

Thanks D Dave.  That is also info that i have been looking for. Show me a system that works and one I can build myself and Im all about it.  But their is so much crap to wade through that I just let it go.
Yes the Dodge is  a Turbo Model   The truck is er well slightly modified. It needs a better turbo or a pair of them. But non the less I have over 120,000 miles of use from a increased horsepower truck.
It is also a good testing  unit as it dont have a computer or any of the fancy sensors to mess with.
Would it be better  pre turbo or on the pressure side on the intake horn.  All of the stuff i see really leaves  diesels out and shows only gas  units.
Dale

[DangerousDave]

Dale,
 
Here is the link to the updated files you have
 http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Start.html
He isn't updating this link anymore instead he has restructure everything in this one
http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/index.html  The Ebook link towards the top is apparently the prime info from the whole site in book form.

If you are just Boosting the diesel then pre turbo works fine. The mix is diluted enough that it is safe, otherwise you need a pressurized Hydroxy System and thats not easy or cheap to do SAFELY. If you get beyond Boosting... well thats another story and there is other things to do also.

Dave

[Dale Hatfield]

Dave
Smacks  site says no way to pre turbo  and intercooler.
My max boost pressure is is about 40 pounds.   So it looks like no simple way for me to test .

[DangerousDave]

Dave
Smacks  site says no way to pre turbo  and intercooler.
My max boost pressure is is about 40 pounds.   So it looks like no simple way for me to test .

I'm pretty sure he is referring to Gas rigs there and he is very safety conscious for the Masses.

I will find the posts from Bob Boyce who actually boosts Big diesels, Bus's and such.
and paste them here for you and you can decide which way to go.

Ok Found some info fur ya.....

From Yahoo Group    Hydroxy

Just wanted to add my test results to this discussion. I originally
thought that it would be best to inject after the turbo due to the
possible heat, and possible ignition of hydroxy gas by the turbo.

I obtained a 1988 RTS bus with an electronically controlled 6V92TA
Detroit Diesel. For those not familiar, this is a V6 2 cycle diesel
engine with a roots style supercharger, a single turbocharger, and an
aftercooler. I decided to test my theory on this engine, since I had
it availaible.

When I injected after the turbo, while it did work somewhat after
pressure built up in the cells, it required too much cell pressure to
get an improvement. That much pressure causes a more rapid
degradation of the hydroxy gas quality.

When I injected before the turbo, (at the air cleaner housing), the
improvement was immediate. I was able to get a much more reliable
boost using this injection point. The same amount of current draw
from the booster revved the engine up higher with no other changes.

So the results of this test proved that with that particular engine
configuration, the best place to inject the hydroxy gas was before
the turbo. Take that for what it is worth.

Bob

Re: Before Turbo vs After Turbo Hydroxy Gas Injection

--- In Hydroxy@yahoogroups.com, "camerondebney01" wrote:
> wow, thats really cool, thats the first time ive ever herd of a
supercharged /turboed /Aftercooled (do you mean a intercooler?) /2
cycle (do you mean a 2 stroke?) /diesel engine.. i don't mean that in a
smart Alec way im really interested in knowing more about this strange
configuration... got any pics etc?

It was actually a common combination used in older big truck and bus
chassis. They even made a twin turbo model, 6V92TTA, for a bit more HP.
In the latter 80s around 1987 or so, they began to replace the manual
injector rack with an electronic controlled version (DDEC). At first it
was an option, then became standard equipment. Yes, 2 cycle is 2
stroke, though the engine uses a 4 stroke type forced oil lubrication
system. I wish there were small 2 stroke engines made in this manner,
as 2 stroke engines are great for hydroxy gas running. I prefer the 2
stroke detroit diesel induction system over that of the smaller 2
stroke engines. They call it aftercooled, as the aftercooler is after
the GMC 6-92 roots style blower. I have a few pictures of the engine
bay with the grimy engine in place. Nothing truly spectacular in my
opinion ;-)




On the 6V92TA in one of my buses, I just inject the hydroxy gas prior
to the air filter. So far, I have not had any problems with heat from
the turbo or supercharger causing pre-ignition at the boost levels I
have tried. If it does turn into a problem at higher boost levels,
then you may need to pressurize your hydroxy gas a bit and inject it
beneath the aftercooler. Just remember, with a diesel engine, you are
limited to 80% maximum hydroxy gas/20% diesel. Just leave it idling
on diesel, then apply enough hydroxy gas to rev it up to where you
want it to be. Super simple!

Bob Boyce

Re: 83 280zx Turbo
Q). With turbo engines, i think the consensus is it is applied to the intake of the turbo (between MAF
sensor (if present) and turbo) The only issue being, the whole intake
tract from turbo to manifold will be charged with compressed
explosive gases.

A)

"The only issue being, the whole intake tract from turbo to manifold
will be charged with compressed explosive gases."

This is a common misconception. As it turns out, the small amount of
hydroxy gas from a booster, in comparison to the much larger amount
of intake air, dilutes the hydroxy gas to well below the flammability
limits for hydrogen. Thus, no explosion can occur. This is also why
waste spark has no effect on boosted engines, while it can be
detrimental to engine running on hydroxy gas alone.

My concern used to be that the heat of the turbo would ignite the
diluted hydrogen atoms or molecules (not explosively) and render it
ineffective. Testing has proven otherwise. As it turns out, prior to
the turbo seems to be the best place for hydroxy gas injection. I
would still do this far upstream of the turbo to allow for the
hydroxy gas to become fully mixed and diluted by the time it reaches
the turbo.

Bob

Note:  Rapid degradation of the hydroxy gas quality... Well hydroxy has ability to
change it's atomic state while compressed, from mono atomic to more stable H2,
so I would say that he was referring to that phenomenon,

[Bum1561]

hey everyone. I just discovered this brown gas thing and I'm amazed! Here's the deal. I drive about about 3200 miles a
month and these gas prices are killing my overhead.  I drive a 95 buick regal with about 150,000 miles. I'm figuring I have nothing to lose. Thing is, I have no mechanical skills. I barely open the hood. All this stuff is great, but please advise on the way a mechanically challenged guy can do this. Oh, one question is how do you keep from this stuff freezing in the winter?
thanks

[Don_Papenburg]

DangerDan,    What is this bubbler you speak of? How is it differant from other Hydrogenerators?   Did Bob Boyce ever say what kind of milage improvement he got from his setup on the 6V92?   I have a 3 53 planed for my Diamond T pickup And would like to use a system like you have spoken of . Any pictures?  I can not open PDF files because my computer on dialup at 37decabits per minutes is too slow to down load the reader.  Can I get a reader on a disk someplace to install in the tower?

[Larry]

Don, you can buy a USB zip drive at Walmart for maybe $20 or less.  Take the zip drive to a library and download the mega files there on DSL.

[StorminN]

Don,

I believe the bubbler Dave is speaking of is just a vessel to bubble the gas through, so ignition can never flash back into the electrolyzer.

So a hose would go from electrolyzer to the bottom of the liquid (water?) in the bubbler, the gas makes bubbles that rise to the top of the bubbler, hose off the top of the bubbler goes to engine air intake.

[DangerousDave]

Norm has the right idea 'cept add a one way check valve between the Electrolyzer and the bubbler so a flashback won't blow the bubbler water back into or blow up the e'lyzer.
 A bubbler is a lot cheaper to replace/repair !
An easy one is to use a piece of clear hose and plastic barbed fittings and NO Clamps that way worst case it blows the hose off the fittings and dumps your water. Quick easy fix.


Bum1561;
 I will get back to ya


Dave

[Ron Wenrich]

Here's the one I put on my 2005 4 cyl 4WD Toyota Tacoma:

 

I've been running it for a month and I went from 22 miles per gallon to 25 miles per gallon.  These have all been run through my scan guage.

What I am noticing is that my trips to town are much better than my trips on the highway.  The best I've done on highway is 26 mpg.  The best for a trip into town has been 32 mpg.  I haven't really gone on any road trip.  Hills will drive the milage down, but taking off from a stop sign or red light, or just trying to get up to speed on the interstate will kill the milage.

One thing I don't understand is how milage will vary from one day to the next.  I run the same route to work, and back.  I have only 1 red light, and I can often hit it green.  Mornings my mpg is a lot lower, but that may be due to colder air.  Afternoons I run through town, and that brings my milage factor up.

But, sometimes I will get as much as a 5-10% difference on the same leg, even though weather conditions are essentially the same.  Computer?

[Fla._Deadheader]

 From what I've learned, there is a small circuit that gets installed, that feeds voltage to the O2 sensors. This is miniscule voltage. O2 sensors work on .01-1 volt range. That circuit feeds enough voltage to let the computer think it's setting the best fuel mix, but, it really allows the HHO to help the engine perform optimally.

  I would bet the cool mornings are where your mileage varies.
 I will post some links to forums that can help you immensely, once I get them all gathered back on my computer.  Firefox deletes URL's if you don't access them often, from the address bar 

  http://waterfuelcell.org/phpBB2/index.php?sid=37635664b32387cae793670d 609ecc10]this link

  http://www.ionizationx.com

  http://www.oupower.com

Sorry. Forgot how to rename the URL 
 

[Tom]

DanGit Deadheader.  You big dummy!!

Code: [Select]

[url][/url]  this is what the icon prints

Then you have to fill it in.

[url=www.ionizationx.com]What I want to call it[/url]

It's that icon of the world... a globe. 

Jeez, louise!!   

[Fla._Deadheader]

This Link

  Hot *DanG. Only took 3 tries, this time. 

  Gracias Tomas, MUUUchas Gracias 

[slowzuki]

Just want to add that despite what is said it their lit, VERY little fuel goes out the exhaust valve of a modern engine.  The cat convertor is mostly working on NOx these days but will catch CO and HC when they are emitted usually during open loop driving (pedal mashed).

Everyone should understand that a person that gets 25 mpg in a given car can generally get it up over 30 mpg by slightly adjusting driving technique.  Some "hypermilers" can double the EPA listed mileage.

[sparky]

I am still confused, but now I am confused at a much higher level!

[sparky]

The following mention was made in one post:

"The only issue being, the whole intake tract from turbo to manifold
will be charged with compressed explosive gases."

This is a common misconception. As it turns out, the small amount of
hydroxy gas from a booster, in comparison to the much larger amount
of intake air, dilutes the hydroxy gas to well below the flammability
limits for hydrogen. Thus, no explosion can occur. This is also why
waste spark has no effect on boosted engines, while it can be
detrimental to engine running on hydroxy gas alone."

In my previous life (before retirement), I was involved with industrial processes that used bulk hydrogen. The lower flamibility level (LFL) for hydrogen is 4%. This means that a 4% concentration will ignite. I am curious as to the hydrogen concentration in the airstream feeding into the turbo?

[Fla._Deadheader]

 The boosters are mixed Hydrogen-oxygen gasses. If run through the turbo, the water vapor will eat away the turbo blades and cause a catastrophic failure. Best to vent the gasses in the manifold.

  I have straight Hydrogen info for engine amounts per cylinder, straight gas, no other fuel. There is much speculation on exact amount needed for mixed gas-Hydroxy. .

[Fla._Deadheader]

 Any updates on satisfaction, MPG increase on that Yota, Ron ??

[Ron Wenrich]

I"m fairly satisfied with my hydrogen boost.  I'm getting a solid 25 mpg for my normal driving.  Today, I had a long drive.  On the way to my destination I only got 22 mpg.  On the way back I got 27 mpg.  It was mainly open highway driving in rolling hillside. 

I'm mainly impressed with my town driving.  My milage is better around town than it is on the interstate.  I've already hit 32 mpg on a trip to town.  The best highway miles was today at 27.  Normally its between 22 and 23 mpg to work, which is mostly interstate driving.  My milage increases as I slow down.

I think the reason is that a booster will put out a set amount of hydroxy gas per minute.  But, your car/truck is burning fuel at a different rates dependent on speed and load.  As a result, your higher speeds actually have less hydroxy for a given amount of fuel as does your lower speeds.  In other words, there's no way to throttle hydroxy production.   

What is now the newest development is where you actually tie into your Map/Maf sensor.  These use a very low voltage and regulate the amount of air/fuel mixture.  Using a pensiometer, they are now regulating that voltage and trying to fool the computer.  The drawback is if you get it too lean, you can burn a piston. 

[Fla._Deadheader]

 Sounds like it's maybe working ??  Have you changed the way you drive, as in, not as heavy a foot, and less jackrabbit starts, that may be contributing to the better MPG

  Have you messed any at all with retarding the timing a little   Hydrogen burns so fast, it really doesn't do much good at firing way before TDC.

  On diesels, the timing is actually retarded to AT TDC or a little later yet

  Have you tried to see what the output is from the booster, in Liters per minute

  Are you running a 4 cyl. or 6 cyl engine

[Ron Wenrich]

I'm running a 4 cyl Tacoma.  I haven't done any jack rabbit starts in a long time.  Mainly because I haven't had a cool muscle car in a long time.   

We haven't messed with the timing.  Would that be necessary since its not just hydrogen being produced?  Production is rated at 2 liters/min, but I haven't really measured it. 

[ronwood]

Ron,

Could you put a second unit in that would kick in at the higher speeds to give you some added boost?

Ron P.

[Don P]

Assuming a 2 liter engine running at 2000 rpm = 4000 liter/min.
You're burning hydrogen at a blend of 1 part in 2000 

[Fla._Deadheader]

 No Don, 2 liters a min is total output. Divide that up by the engine size, and, it doesn't take much hydrogen to help a bit. 

 Ron, it won't hurt to try a LITTLE retarding. That will help the engine get a complete burn of the gasoline. Hydrogen flashes faster than gasoline and burns MUCH faster AND 3 times hotter. An adjustable circuit, might help the engine at higher speed, also. Did any of y'all go to any of the sites I provided links to

[rowerwet]

when it is burning Hydrogen will eat metal. My dad worked on the space shuttle engine compressor disks. they have liquid Hydrogen running up the inside of the disk (which is a pump) and burning hydrogen on the out side of the disk. The burning hydrogen would remove metal from the disk until they coated them with Gold. Obviously your engine is at a lower temp burning , but the long term effect will be the same. And the space shuttle engines are only rated for a few hours of use over thier life.