Hydrogen/Brown's gas

[Ron Wenrich]

So, I've been reading a bunch about how if you make some hydrogen on board your car, you should be able to improve your gas milage.  Now, I could go out and do all the experiments and get neat bubbles to appear on steel plates; but, I wanted something that was already built.  It feel it saves me a bunch of time.  Besides, youtube has a bunch of young kids that have already made the hydrogen and have loads of video to watch.

I decided to shop around on eBay for a unit.  There are lots of them there, as well as all kinds of plans and scams.  I decided to go with a unit that looked like it was made with a little ingenuity and some engineering skill.  Those ones made with sewer pipe just didn't fit the bill.

I settled on a Super Hydro 2.  The unit is made out of stainless steel.  It also has a bubbler that recycles the water, and that keeps the unit cool. 

My truck's pretty new, and I didn't want to ruin my engine, so, I talked someone else into letting me put it on his truck.  He helps me out around the homestead, and watches the place when I go on trips.  We ended up putting it on his '95 Dodge Ram 350 V-8. 

Here's what the unit looks like:

 

We mounted it with velcro strips for easy removal.  The bubbler is the way you add fluid and is to the left.

They said that it would be a 45 minute installation.  It took us that long just to figure out where to put it.     Basically, we mounted everything, ran a hose to the air cleaner, run wire to the battery and put in a dash switch.  Here's what it looks like:

 

For water, we decided to run baking soda instead of a vinegar solution.  We also put some dry gas in the mix so it wouldn't freeze.  2 days later it got really cold and it all froze up.  It took a week for it to thaw out.  In the meantime, we got an extender for the oxygen sensor so the check engine light wouldn't come on. 

So, on to testing the unit.  I bought a scan guage that connects to your on board computer.  That tells you what your gas milage, rpm, etc is running.  My helper isn't too good with statistics and I've had a hard time getting him to track his milage.  Apparently he can't afford to fill his tank up, then check it once a week.   

I did get him to write down his milage on a daily basis and from that I've come up with an improvement from 17.7 mpg to 20.5 mpg or a 16% increase.  He has also noticed that his truck is running about 25° cooler.  The inreased milage does not come from the hydrogen energy, but comes from improving the efficiency of the engine.  We've also come to the conclusion that his oxygen sensor probably isn't working, since it was supposed to be replaced at 60K miles and right now he's at 135K miles.

Another thing that we aren't sure about is whether we have enough baking soda in the mix.  We have doubled the baking soda and will be checking to see what kind of amps we're drawing.  Its supposed to be at least 10 amps. 

Tomorrow or Saturday we're putting on another unit on my 2005 Toyota.  I know I get 22 mpg just driving around.  Its been pretty steady through all the years.  The scan guage also has verified the same milage.  We shall see how it goes. 

[Fla._Deadheader]

 From what I have been gathering, the computer on the engine will eventually override the boost gas, and you will revert back to the same mileage.

  There are things to do that will "Trick" the computer, to do things that YOU want it to do. 

[Don_Papenburg]

I have read a little about that stuff also .  It is interesting all the claims of improvement of milageof more than 50%  . i would like to get my 3/4 TChevy up to the 30MPG range .   One guy made a claim that his units would get 15 to 30% increase but he claimed that his 95Buick Lesabre would get up to 100 MPG.

[Dave Shepard]

This is very encouraging. How far do you have to go to recoup on the investment?


Dave

[Fla._Deadheader]

 Still can't reduce a link 

 http://www.pamdemocrat.org/Newspaper/Details.
cfm?Nz=%247GIJ2%20%20%20%0A&Iz=%24
(BXD%230%20%20%0A

[Fla._Deadheader]

 Google up  Hydro Assist Fuel Cell 

[Dave Shepard]

{url=http://website.com}Name you want displayed{/url}  Replace those brackets for the other  brackets [ ] and it should work.


Deadheadaers link

Lets see if that works.


Dave

[Radar67]

Is this the link you were trying to post?

FDH Link

[Coon]

I just wonder what the mileage increase would be on my little firefly turbo.  I'm already getting 45-50 mpg with it.  Would love to get say even 75 but boy oh boy would it be a challenge to find a place to mount it, but I know it could be done.  What are the dimensions of the unit itself?  What kind of price would I be looking at to get one?

Where does one look to purchase one of these units.  If the price is right I would really like to attempt this kind of project

[Ron Wenrich]

Price of the unit depends on the size of the motor.  Up to 7.2 liter, you dan get away with a single, which runs about $400.  The double is for larger units and run about $700.  That's a lot better than some of the others that can run well over $1200.

Payback depends on how much you drive.  If you're running a big rig that gets 6 mpg and run 1,000 miles per week, then a 1 mpg increase would pay itself back in about 2 months with fuel @ $4.25.  After that, your savings are about $100/week.  If you only do a little bit of driving, then the payback would be a lot longer. 

As for fooling the computer, that's where the O2 extender comes in.  Supposedly, you're looking at having a higher percentage of O2 in the mix, since you're not sending in pure hydrogen, but a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen.  When you pull the O2 sensor back, it can't sniff out the increase in O2, so it leans out the engine.  Claims are made that just by pulling back the sensor you can increase your milage from 10-20%.  I haven't found that to be true.

I'm skeptical of the claims of running a car on a high amount of hydrogen that is produced on board.  The dynamics of converting water to hydrogen takes energy.  You can't get more energy from a system than what's been put in.  I saw one estimate by a guy who built an eletrolizer that it would take 80 hp just to produce enough hydrogen to cruise down the highway in an average car.  The only way it would be possible is if the hydrogen runs the engine at a very high efficiency rate as compared to oil based fuels.  I've read that gasoline engines run at about 35% efficiency, so there's a lot of room for improvement.

[Don P]

I think you are using about 1/4 horsepower to make 120 watts of power so the improvement in burning characterisitics has to overcome this burden first then it can work on improving fuel economy.

[Fla._Deadheader]

  Ever heard of Stanley Meyer   There are others that actually HAVE units that produce way more Hyd-Oxy than normal Electrolysis.

  It's called Over Unity. Uses very high voltage and a MAX of 2 amps. 

  There are folks using a sort of static electricity to run the units.

  Try oupower.com   or  Water fuel cell.com  Be prepared for LOTS of reading 

[StorminN]

Ron,

I've got a couple of questions about the unit you bought... does it have a separate electronics unit, like an amp or anything that goes with it, or is it simply a wire that runs into the unit itself and powers the plates? (ie., is it a "brute force" electrolizer, or does it have a pulser built in?). Does the unit always put out the same amount of OH, or is it variable? Did the folks that sold it to you say anything about running it with a water and KOH solution? I have a friend that has built a couple of electrolizers, and that's what he's used.

As far as the oxygen sensor goes, which sensor are you talking about? Does the Dodge just have one after the catalytic converter? Is it a four wire (heated) or single wire sensor? I don't understand what you're saying about the "pulling the O2 sensor back"... do you mean further down the tailpipe? Most O2 sensors output between 0.0 to 1.0V, so 0.5 volts would be right in the middle. Seems like you could add a variable resistor inline to trick the computer into seeing what you wanted it to. I'm not sure whether a lower voltage means a rich mixture, though. If low voltage means lean mixture, then it would take a circuit inline that boosts the voltage to make it work... just thinking out loud here...

I've shied away from learning more about this stuff because my brain is only so big (and the buffer is full) and I've been running diesel rigs for so long... but I just this week bought a '90 Subaru wagon because diesel prices are killing me... this Subaru is fuel injected, so I guess it's time to learn!

From what I've gathered, these electrolizer units can really work if you feed them with a high voltage, low amperage square wave pulse at around 43k? (if I remember correctly). It's at that point that you start putting in less energy (via electricity) than you start getting out (via hp). I've sent this thread to my friend, hopefully he will register here and chime in...

-Norm.

[Sprucegum]

My BIL was looking at a unit for his big rig, sorry I don't remember the name off hand. They claimed a 10-15% savings. The real bonus was it didn't matter if it froze, the electric current would melt the amount of water needed as it worked. The initial price was reasonable but he would be required to let them do all his maintenance work and 24/7 monitoring of his rig's performance. He's too independent and antisocial fer that! 

[Fla._Deadheader]

 As usual, it's , BUYER BEWARE 

  LOTS of claims. I'm reading about experimenters that share info. THEN, I would buy something. 

[Ron Wenrich]

Norm

Its a single electrode.  The seperate electronics that you hear about is for pulsing, which is supposed to give more hydrogen.  That just gives a big burst of energy, then slacks off, if my understanding is correct.  I don't see any commercial units using pulsing electronics at the present time.  A lot of that comes under the notion of theory, along with alot of the other stuff you see about hydrogen. 

The technology right now is to increase the milage, not run on hydrogen.  Afterall, you're not producing just hydrogen.  You would have to seperate the gases, which isn't done right now. 

KOH is simply an electrolyte that you need to deliver the juice to produce the hydrogen.  Ordinary tap water doesn't work.  KOH is lye, and is pretty caustic.  That's why I shy away from KOH.  You can use salt water, but chlorine gas is a byproduct.  I've also seen where they used battery acid.  Vinegar or baking soda can be used, which is easily gotten at the grocery store, and won't take the paint off your car. 

The oxygen sensor that's being pulled back is the one further down the tail pipe.  Its done with a nipple extension that pulls the sensor back about 3/4".  Without this, some cars won't get any results or actually have poorer gas milage with the hydrogen.  Too much O2 would make the computer adjust the fuel mixture to something richer. 

Harold

There are lots of claims out there.  Having a car that is run by 80% water is one of them.  There is a competition right now to build a car that delivers 100 mpg.  The prize is $10 million.  How many of those cars are entered?  Zero.

[Dale Hatfield]

I have a a download that i bought , in my quest to learn more about hydrogen. It has a build list and material needed to make it . I however have not built any part of it .I think its just a quest for me to learn more . I can share this file if yall want to see what my money got me.   

Dale

Update >>>>>
Send me a PM with an Email and ill send the PDF file. OR ill send it to somebody and they can post it here somehow.
Dale

[Larry]

KOH is simply an electrolyte that you need to deliver the juice to produce the hydrogen.  Ordinary tap water doesn't work.  KOH is lye, and is pretty caustic.  That's why I shy away from KOH.  You can use salt water, but chlorine gas is a byproduct.  I've also seen where they used battery acid.  Vinegar or baking soda can be used, which is easily gotten at the grocery store, and won't take the paint off your car. 

If you can find it try washing soda...I like it better than baking soda.  I mostly use KOH but for a different application where caustic isn't a problem.

[Coon]

Dale that would be great if you could share that info with us.

[DangerousDave]

Hi All

Got a link to this From Norm.
I have been working with this a few years now and there is a LOT of DisInfo out there!
First off is the Electrolyte used.
Only use KOH (Potassium Hydroxide) available on Ebay  through Summer Bee Meadow
or         NaOH (sodium Hydroxide ) 

anything else produces unwanted results....

Using baking soda is bad in a number of ways.

1. The carbon in baking soda combines with oxygen during the
reaction, forming carbon monoxide.

2. The resultant gas is not hydroxy gas, but is a highly toxic blend
of hydrogen and carbon monoxide.

3. A gas leak can be lethal to anyone around the device.

4. Carbon binds with the catalytic compounds in the electrodes,
causing carbon poisoning.

5. Carbon poisoning at first reduces, then eliminates, a catalytic
reaction from occuring.

6. As the catalytic compounds are poisoned, efficiency drops to well
below Faraday.

7. The electrodes will have to be resurfaced to remove this carbon
poisoning.

8. Baking soda is a consumable, not a catalyst.

9. As carbon is consumed from the baking soda, it converts into
sodium hydroxide.

10. Energy goes into the consumption of baking soda, that could
otherwise be used to liberate hydroxy gas.

Summary: After the toxic gas is emitted, and destruction of the
catalytic qualities of the electrodes, the end result is a dilute
sodium hydroxide electrolyte solution. Why not just use sodium
hydroxide to begin with?


SALT:
Burning chlorine gas will ruin an engine. It becomes hydrochloric
acid when burned!

Baking soda can chemically alter quality stainless steel so that it
no longer resists corrosion. It will also bond with the trace metals
that are normally used in forming the catalytic layer, destroying the
catalytic capabilities. For those that use salt, the salt breaks down
into sodium hydroxide and chlorine. The chlorine damages the plates
through corrosion.

I will post more later
Dave