Author Topic: Timber theft (Read 3446 times)

ohsoloco · « **on:** May 19, 2003, 12:08:10 pm »

This article is on the front page of today's paper....thought some of you might find it interesting.

http://www.centredaily.com/mld/dailytimes/news/nation/5894640.htm

biziedizie · « **Reply #1 on:** May 19, 2003, 05:52:45 pm »

Now there's an idea! Think I might have to look into the jail time that's involved.

Let's see I could make some very good coin and retire or if I get caught I could have a nice vacation and have 3 cooked meals a day.
Anyone know about how to get into this business?

Steve

Ron Wenrich · « **Reply #2 on:** May 19, 2003, 06:20:58 pm »

I have a hard time believing the guy was taking old growth cedar away in a pickup truck. Seems to me that he would have a hard time moving that material around without having some heavy duty equipment.

I talked to a consultant from Oregon many years ago that said the thieves would run their chainsaw exhaust through a hose and put the end in a bucket of water. Acted as a silencer.

The bulk of the timber thefts I've seen are boundary disputes. But, we did have a guy who would drive around with a log truck and pick nice trees next to the road, especially on state property. They could never catch him, and the worst that he could get would be a stumpage price.

Some of these guys figure that the worst that could happen is they would have to pay for stumpage. In the long run, their stumpage costs would be below the norm, even if they got caught every once in awhile.

But, with the increase in stumpage value, you are no longer looking at petty theft. Jail time and equipment confiscation should really slow things down.

Sawyerfortyish · « **Reply #3 on:** May 19, 2003, 07:46:03 pm »

I don't know who wrote this but one cedar tree 5,000$ come on And they put it in a pickup and drove away? I don't agree with the punishment for timber theft they should cut off that guys arm with a chainsaw that'll slow him down. I know you can make honest boundry line mistakes I've seen it happen. Sometimes landowners don't know where the line is I have went to the expense of hiring a surveyer to mark out lines. But when someone out right knows there stealing they should

Him

Tillaway · « **Reply #4 on:** May 19, 2003, 08:26:37 pm »

I read the same article too. Those big cedar are cut into shake bolts, so its no problem to load them into a pickup like firewood. They can get over $1000 a cord for it so a tree being worth $5000 is possible if the whole thing is utilized. This is of course about the top market price for the best quality. This by no means new. Its been going on since day one. Some of the tricks used out here to steal logs.

On Forest Service Sales simply send the first load out every morning without a load ticket. You get a whole truck load for free. This was such a problem that the FS has adopted lump sum sales only now. That and bribing the log scaler. The scalers would way over estimate defect if you paid them off.

On private sales you have to watch and make sure the truck actually takes the whole load to the buyer. Some outfits would load the good grade logs on the top of the load and simply pull into a mill and have the top couple good logs taken off the truck. The land owners never knew the difference.

Frank_Pender · « **Reply #5 on:** May 19, 2003, 09:19:43 pm »

Yep, a few years ago people were hiking into some areas of Clatsop County, which is an area around the mouth of the Columbia River, ant spotting downed old growth Western Red Cedar and sening a baloon up in the air so that a chopper could come in close and remove the sawn and split bolts.
Here in Oregon, it is tripple damages for the taking of timber.

DKinWA · « **Reply #6 on:** May 20, 2003, 11:33:09 pm »

Tillaway was right when he said they were cutting the cedar into shake bolts and then hauling them out by pickup truck. There are a few shake mills around here that will buy the wood no questions asked. From what I understand (law enforcement friends) a lot of this goes on to support drug habitats and most of those that are arrested have a slew of warrants for other charges. I remember the first time he was caught several locals wrote letters to the editor in our local paper in support of the guy. They went on about how the guy was just trying to survive. The last time he was arrested the only letters I remember were readers wanting the prosecutor to throw the book at him.

Jeff · « **Reply #7 on:** May 21, 2003, 03:12:15 am »

Welcome there DKinWA

shopteacher · « **Reply #8 on:** May 21, 2003, 05:26:55 am »

There was a story on the local news last week about an outfit of private loggers who were contracting with the land owners to cut a small group of tree and would go in and just devistate the area taking everything. They wouldn't pay the land owner anything and here in SW Pa. they weren't even going after them. I forget the reason given for not prosecuting them, but it was lame. The guy had gotten $80,000 for the logs taken off one landowner. West Virginia finially arrested him, but now he's out on bond. Wish I had a copy of the story to post, it's amazing the rights and the laws that exist for the criminals.

ohsoloco · « **Reply #9 on:** May 21, 2003, 09:17:56 am »

A friend of mine had purchased about 300 acres of land a few years back here in Centre county. He wanted to have some of the land logged off, so he just had loggers come over and give him "quotes." Not bothering with a forester, he let the guy that gave the highest bid do the logging. He was originally promised about $75,000. By the time the logger got out of there (and telling my friend that every truckload he took out of there was junk) he had about $5,000 in his pocket

Bibbyman · « **Reply #10 on:** May 21, 2003, 09:46:35 am »

Another effect of timber theft is that as much good timber passes it's prim and falls to rot because some landowners don't trust any logger.

The land will eventually change hands by sale or by inheritance and the first thing to go is the timber - either to development or to the logger so those who inherited it can pay the taxes or settle with co-inheritors.

ohsoloco · « **Reply #11 on:** May 21, 2003, 11:58:23 am »

A friend's grandfather has a few hundred acres of mountain ground that he refuses to let anyone log, "I'll let my kids deal with it" he said to me. I guess there are a lot of mature oaks on the land (I haven't seen it)...at least he has the trees that get blown over sawn into lumber (he's a woodworker).

Ron Wenrich · « **Reply #12 on:** May 21, 2003, 03:16:29 pm »

A landowner getting screwed due to ignorance is a little different then wholesale theft. People get scammed all the time.

A lot of these guys work on either a handshake or a very flimsy contract. But, if there is a contract, then the logger may very well get off.

I know of timber scalers that don't give full scale on the trees. Some of these are consultants that use a lower scale to inflate price/Mbf. It is part of their sales pitch to get more work.

I really don't blame any landowner for being suspicious of anyone wanting to buy their timber. There are so many horror stories, that landowners have been turned off of selling timber or managing their woodlot.

Landowners should have some cash in hand before logging begins. Timber should be prepaid, not pay as you feel like it. There should always be a contract. If you're getting paid by the load, then you better hire someone to oversee the job.

DKinWA · « **Reply #13 on:** May 21, 2003, 06:55:52 pm »

Thank you Jeff B. I'm probably the odd ball in the group since I'm actually a biologist looking at changing careers. I'm getting tired of working for the state and I'm thinking about turning my part time excavation business into a full time job. I actually started lurking here since I'd like to get into forest road maintenance and construction and this seemed like a good site with lots of information. Sorry about the off topic part so back to the topic.

I work with a lot of small forest landowners and I always recommend they look around for a good forester to help them with the harvest. I've heard a lot of horror stories and nothing makes me madder than seeing an older couple in their "golden years" getting ripped off by a thief pretending to be a logger!

One more thing. On the left side of my computer screen there is a message that says, "Hey, DKinWA, you have 1 message, 1 is new" now at the possibility of sounding like an idiot, how do I open it?

ohsoloco · « **Reply #14 on:** May 21, 2003, 07:03:53 pm »

DKinWA, just put your cursor on the "1 message" and click on it to go to your inbox

You're worried about getting off topic...have you read many of these threads?

DKinWA · « **Reply #15 on:** May 21, 2003, 08:09:15 pm »

Got it. Thanks!

Bibbyman · « **Reply #16 on:** May 21, 2003, 08:13:47 pm »

I had a topic one time but my dowg eat it!

(Maybe he thought it was GRITS!)

Scott_R · « **Reply #17 on:** May 21, 2003, 08:41:13 pm »

I knew it wouldn't take long to get off topic and talking about food.

Scott

Mark M · « **Reply #18 on:** May 21, 2003, 09:29:17 pm »

Hey - why do they call it grits? Is it gritty? I've never had any and don't know what it is exactly but I saw some on tv and it looked kinda like malt-o-meal. Someone please edumacate me. Maybe someone could tell me what a a shitlin is, or maybe that chitlin? My dad used to talk about them, I'll bet Nobel knows.

Mark

DKinWA · « **Reply #19 on:** May 21, 2003, 09:35:38 pm »

I think I'm going to like this forum! Speaking of food, I just had my first taste (for this year anyway) of bbq'd salmon yesterday. Hmmmmmm gooooood.

Sorry, I couldn't resist rubbing it in!

DanG · « **Reply #20 on:** May 21, 2003, 10:09:19 pm »

Mark, you have asked a magical question, so, at the risk of thiefing a thread about thiefing, I'll try to explain.........

In the old days, folks would take their corn to a grist mill to have it made into corn meal...poor folks flour. A portion of the corn would escape from the grindstone before it was totally crushed, and was left as residue of the process. The millers would sometimes give this gritty substance to the poorest of the poor, since it had no real value. These poor folks would boil it in a pot, with some water, to make a kind of "mush" that would fill their bellies and warm their innards. The coarse granules turn soft, and swell up with the moisture, until they become as palatable as the original corn kernals. They have a mild flavor that is easily overshadowed by butter, eggs, or redeye gravy and salt, but have a pleasant, corn flavor, if tasted plain.
We, the poor folks of the South, grew up enjoying them, as we are descended from those "poorest of the poor" that originally used them for sustenance. The "smart" ones have mostly died off from lack of common sense, leaving this paradise to us dumbasses.

Mark M · « **Reply #21 on:** May 21, 2003, 10:31:46 pm »

Thanks DanG for splaining that to me. I saw them at the McDonald's when I was in Indiana this winter.

Oh yeah, where are my manners

- Welcome DKinWA. I know a little bit about biology too. Remind me to tell you about hoop snakes someday.

Mark

Tillaway · « **Reply #22 on:** May 21, 2003, 10:42:30 pm »

Hi DK,
I have been through Elma a bunch on my way over the the Harbor. I have worked around there and up on the Quinault Nation. What sort of biologist are ya? The scaley kind or a feather and fur variety?

Fla._Deadheader · « **Reply #23 on:** May 22, 2003, 06:07:09 am »

Hey DK, are ya fixin them there Salamons on a cedar board?? I got a customer, here in Florady that I'm sellin 3" X 6" X 3/16" boards to, fer .20 each!! Now, let's see, how much a bdft is that?? Arky, you're the cedar bdft man ??

Bro. Noble · « **Reply #24 on:** May 22, 2003, 08:09:32 am »

Mark,

When you render lard, the stuff floating on top is 'chitlins'. You put it in cornbread for the best results. It would be good mixed in grits too or even in your fried mush.

Noble

DKinWA · « **Reply #25 on:** May 22, 2003, 08:25:00 am »

Fla._Deadheader, I didn't get to do the bbq'in, but I stopped by my parents home not long after my dad took it off the grill. Good timing on my part

My dad has some alder slabs that he uses like the cedar, but he didn't have one soaking in water so the fish went on aluminum foil instead. It still tasted pretty darn good. I've never tried the cedar board, but I'll have to try it. The quinault tribe that tillaway mentioned has a neat way of using cedar sticks to smoke salmon. I don't know how to describe it, but their smoked sockey is always a hit at the county fair.

Tillaway, We probably know each other if you've been around a while. I've been a biologist for about 15 years. For the last 7 I've been a habitat biologist and spent most of my time writing hydraulic project approvals. It's interesting work, but I've reached a point in my life where it's time for a change. I'm hoping to turn my part time excavation business into a full time job. At some point I'd like to merge some of my biology experience with the dirt work and maybe get into culvert and fish passage work. Who know's, stranger things have happened.

Thanks for the welcome everyone

DanG · « **Reply #26 on:** May 22, 2003, 08:42:27 am »

Noble, we call what you're talkin' about, "cracklin's". Chitlins, on the other hand, is the actual innards of the hog. Intestines! They is right popular among the folks that come up really pore. I ain't never et none, and don't have any plans fer it, neither. The official spelling for this delicacy is, "chitterlings."
Any way you slice it, though, it is hog guts.

I tried the salmon filets cooked on cedar, and didn't like it. Tasted like it'd been soaked in diesel fuel. In my book, cedar belongs in the closet, not the kitchen.

Welcome, DK. Glad you found us. Where else can you get such a broad eddication, and get to expound on the obscure tidbits of knowledge you may have?

ohsoloco · « **Reply #27 on:** May 22, 2003, 10:18:19 am »

Chitlins are innnards, huh? I'm surprised I've never eaten any

I think it's more of a southern thing, isn't it?

The only grits I've ever had (or what I was told was grits) was my first weekend at the mess hall my freshman year of college. Actually crawled out of bed in time for brunch, and in the breakfast line I saw a nice steaming tray of what looked like Cream of Wheat. Being a fan of this stuff, I took a nice bowl of it....I think I only ate one bite after I found out it wasn't Cream of Wheat

Do real grits look anything like cream of wheat

DanG · « **Reply #28 on:** May 22, 2003, 11:35:53 am »

Yep, CofW looks a lot like grits. It's just as big a disappointment when you''re expecting grits and it ain't. :-/

Chitlins is favored, mostly by real poor, real country folks. A lot of more upscale folks with country roots like'em, though. It is said, around here, that these folks have "riz above their raisin'."

Back to the subject at hand. Maybe those cedar boards my salmon was cooked on was stolen.

Mark M · « **Reply #29 on:** May 22, 2003, 12:05:36 pm »

Speakin of being stolen, my old pappy used to say the best tasting watermelon was one you swiped yourself.

Course he did get a butt full of rock salt once from those Amishmen across the road

Frickman · « **Reply #30 on:** May 22, 2003, 02:08:33 pm »

Shopteacher,

In Pennsylvania, if a timber buyer makes at least one payment on a timber harvest, and then pays nothing else, it is considered a civil matter and law enforcement officials won't touch it. The landowner must chase after and prosecute the logger in civil court at their own expense. Many landowners see the trouble and cost they have to go through and write everything off as an expensive learning experience. The outlaw loggers know this and work the system to their advantage. If they have a written contract and write at least one check then the authorities won't pursue them.
Along with stealing the timber these crooks typically leave a big mess, usually in a highly visible area. This makes it difficult for an honest, legitimate logger to purchase timber. Even if a landowner wishes to conduct a timber harvest, they usually have at least one neighbor who works against you.

Bro. Noble · « **Reply #31 on:** May 22, 2003, 02:57:30 pm »

DanG you're right about chitlins and cracklins------I'm getting senile but I'm enjoying it

Speaking of food for poor folks-------how bout fatback and collard greens?

Noble

shopteacher · « **Reply #32 on:** May 22, 2003, 03:12:49 pm »

Your right Frickman and I think that was how it was explained on the news. Trouble with civil cases is when you win you still loose. If you get a judgement against someone there is no easy way of collecting what is owed you if you can ever collect at all. Unfortunately it usually will cost you more trying to collect that what is owed you. Just ain't right people that try to live an honest life, work hard, pay taxes and someone comes along a skirts the law and robs them. Best thing for that type of person is a lesson from a 12 ga.

Fla._Deadheader · « **Reply #33 on:** May 22, 2003, 03:27:56 pm »

DanG, didja use Red Cedar or White Cedar?? Red Cedar is full of oil !! White Cedar is whatcha wanna get !!

Tillaway · « **Reply #34 on:** May 22, 2003, 07:16:32 pm »

DK
I was just a hired gun working in the area whenever someone was selling some land or timber. I did work on the Quinault though doing an inventory. That has to be the brushiest, nastiest most bear infested place on the planet. Thats also quite a bunch of characters living in Amanda Park though.

DanG · « **Reply #35 on:** May 23, 2003, 07:31:16 am »

Harold, I think that was the problem. Sweetie bought them prepackaged on sale. They wuz already on the grill when I got home with a load of logs, or I'da told her to take mine off the board before cooking it. I consume enough essence of wood, without cooking fish on it.

Fla._Deadheader · « **Reply #36 on:** May 23, 2003, 04:14:05 pm »

DanG, here's how my customer prepares it. Soak the cedar overnight. Place yer fish on board

and season it. Put a little water with a dab of that wooster stuff sauce in the water, in a pie pan and put the fish board in it, and put it in the oven till it's ready to eat. I can ship ya a board, if'n ya wanna try it

DKinWA · « **Reply #37 on:** May 23, 2003, 06:31:57 pm »

You guys won't believe this! I just sat down to check out what's new on the forum and listen to the 5pm news and wouldn't you know that they were covering the sentencing of the timber thief. He was sentenced to 7 1/2 years. The judge felt his history warranted the stiff sentence. He's been caught 6 times stealing timber and they feel he's probably stolen millions of dollars in timber from the forest service. It also turns out he was using the money to buy methamphetamine and other drugs. They tried to interview him, but he wasn't in a talking mood. I guess the surprise is on him this time since he mentioned to the guards that he wouldn't get more than 4 months.

Tillaway · « **Reply #38 on:** May 23, 2003, 07:04:26 pm »

That should get his attention.

gyppo_forester · « **Reply #39 on:** May 25, 2003, 07:34:13 pm »

I wrote a paper on timber theft for a boundary surveying course when I was back at Mizzou. Most of the laws are really old. In the Ozarks we called it "grandma-ing" (...honest, I thought that was my grandma's 40, I'd never cut someone else's timber on purpose...). Enforcement of timber theft is so difficult. If the logs are already milled you can't match a butt cut to the stump. Short of catching the thief in the act, much theft goes unpunished. In Missouri the thieves went after white oak stave bolts. Just like the cedar rats in the Northwest, a pickup and a chainsaw are all you need.

I can vouch for DKinWA. I've worked with him on some projects and would sure be sorry to see him move on to something else. It can be difficult to find an experienced professional biologist with some common sense. On the other hand, I'd love to have another contractor out there who could put in big culverts properly. More power to you DK.

Terry

Ron Scott · « **Reply #40 on:** May 03, 2010, 08:05:37 pm »

Man Faces Charges in Theft of Timber

Hattiesburg American (Mississippi, 4/27) - A six-month joint investigation by the state's Department of Agriculture and Commerce, and the Mississippi Forestry Commission resulted in the arrest of Harold E. Simmons on three counts of timber theft. Simmons had been contracted to harvest timber from 16th Section land, which is set aside to help fund school districts. He is accused of under-reporting that harvest and pocketing about $375,000 from the stolen timber.

The E-Forester

Weekend_Sawyer · « **Reply #41 on:** May 03, 2010, 09:10:36 pm »

That's a large gap in posts on this thread, might be some sort of a record.

Ron, I'm glad that guy was caught.

Jon

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Author Topic: Timber theft (Read 3446 times)

biziedizie