Fencing for deer and white pine

[Clark]

Sorry, I know this topic has been hashed out many times here before, but I think I have a different idea...

Where I grew up in northern MN there is a clear and blatant lack of white pine and to see that come back to the landscape would be awesome.  Planting is a waste because of the deer.  My thought is that trying to establish a stand of white pine is too difficult so why not try to establish a generation of seed trees.  While it will take time, in 100 years we could have a good smattering of white pine across the landscape that are establishing naturally regenerated white pine.  So how to establish a bunch of seed trees?

My uncle has a large garden.  He likes it and so do the deer.  He can keep the deer out by fencing in small areas though.  Maybe 15'x30' and that is with fence that is 4' high.  The deer don't care to be confined to that small area, so they simply will not go in it. 

I think we could do the same with white pine.  In a clear-cut that is to be planted to red pine, you could establish single rows of white pine every 100 yards.  Then fence these rows in with a 4' fence but have it 6-8' wide and as long as the row is.  This should be narrow enough that deer would feel too enclosed to ever jump in.  After the pine have reached 8-12' tall, take the fence down.

All expenses and logistics aside, does this sound like a plan that would work?  Anyone else have experience with a system similar to this?  Pros, cons, criticisms or praises? 

Clark

[Gary_C]

The Minnesota DNR is actively working on restarting white pine regeneration plus there is a large company, Rajala, also doing plantings on their own lands. They are managing the deer problems with bud caps that are manually applied and maintained. They still have problems with white pine weevils and white pine blister rust.

One of the problems with economics of white pine is the thinnings have little pulp value as compared to red or jack pine.

[SwampDonkey]

I have trouble with moose terrorizing my white pine plantings. They get up to 3 feet and the moose take the limbs and bark off. 

[Gary_C]

I have trouble with moose terrorizing my white pine plantings. They get up to 3 feet and the moose take the limbs and bark off. 

Do they still bother the white pine when they are in your freezer? 

[SwampDonkey]

Too many moose, not enough licenses. I told that to a couple local rangers that happened along by my woodlot, while I was waiting to pay one of my men one morning.  They seemed to agree. 

Earlier that fall, it was a little unnerving to stand beside two monster bull moose with 3 rows of little trees between me and them. I was like a little song bird to those two hormone engrossed critters.  

[Clark]

The Minnesota DNR is actively working on restarting white pine regeneration plus there is a large company, Rajala, also doing plantings on their own lands. They are managing the deer problems with bud caps that are manually applied and maintained. They still have problems with white pine weevils and white pine blister rust.

I'm aware that Rajala and the MN DNR are working towards similar goals of re-establishing white pine in MN.  While bud capping can work, it is very labor intensive and demands uninterrupted attention for several years to be effective.  I am wondering if anyone has experience keeping deer out of places with low fences and small spaces.  It seems like it would be less expensive, certainly less labor intensive and if it works, even practical! 

[ahlkey]

Karl Martin a DNR research scientist from Rhinelander Wisconsin did a study of small deer enclosures in the winter of 2005.  The enclosures were 5 ft in height by a square of  5, 6, or 7 meters and overall was indeed effective in keeping deer from jumping into the enclosure even while baiting the deer.  One deer did jump over the fence during this testing period and even though it only lasted a few weeks it did prove the point that it was helpful.  However, would it hold up for 5-10 years?   For small temporary gardens enclosures that is one thing but enclosures in the back 40 is another issue.    From other research I have reviewed if the fence is in direct line of their feeding path you can expect the deer will experiment more and even push it over if they can.  They are also capable of crawling under the fence if you leave any significant gap at the bottom of the fence.   A lot depends on deer motivation, type of winter (how hungry are the deer), and the overall deer density your are up against.   My feeling is that your suggestion may have some merit over the short-term but will it stand up for many years and is it cost effective?

However, I do agree that bud capping doesn't really work.  I have solid proof that deer when highly motivated just pull if off.  Likewise, it is very labor intensive to maintain given the weather conditions.  Having said all this I do share your hope to bring back the White Pine to traditional areas, but the pine weevils and white pine rust issues are real problems as well.     

[Clark]

Thanks ahlkey, that's the kind of information I was looking for.  Just to clarify, the enclosures were 5mx5m, 6x6, etc, not 5m², 6m², etc?

I agree with most of your reservations concerning this method.  While I am not in a position where I can implement it and see how cost effective it is, I have a feeling that a little creative shopping would bring the costs down considerably.  Check out the bamboo stakes here.  I think that using bamboo stakes could save you considerably money as compared to wooden or metal stakes.  You might throw some metal stakes in at the corners to help tighten it up...experience would give a better answer though.

Cost for 1 row of white pine, 1/4 mile long:

Bamboo stakes:  $120  (assume 1, 3/4"x7' stake every 15')
Orange fencing: $765

Without labor, cost would be ~$850-900 depending on actual material costs.

I don't know costs for bud capping but cost per tree for this fence would range from $5.45 (8' spacing) to $2.72 (4' spacing).  I don't think long-term durability would be a problem.  The trees only have to get 6-8' tall and then the fence can be taken down and (parts) reused or scrapped.  That would be a 5-10 year time period during which the fence would need to be checked once each year during the fall or early winter and repaired at that time.

You do bring up some notable things about the deer, namely that they are unpredictable when they really want something.  I think this fence would work, but I'm sure one or two deer would get in each fence at some point but probably jump out quickly once they realized how confined they were.

Clark

[Furby]

Don't count on the Bamboo stakes lasting the time frame you are talking about.
We use 1/4-3/8" Bamboo stakes for our potted vine sales.
The ones I have worked with later, all break off at the ground after about a year, maybe two tops.
Being hollow, I don't see the larger sizes lasting all that long either.

[ahlkey]

All the enclosures were 5 feet tall and were completely square measuring 5, 6, or 7 meters on each side.  One meter equals 39.4 inches.   As far as cost effectiveness I will be doing a large tree planting this spring and testing a number of fencing options.  I believe it is possible to achieve significant savings over the more traditional fencing being done today, but even if I can keep them out for one winter doesn't mean that it will work for the 5-10 year duration.  As you can see success is not a quick and easy thing to measure.   

[rocksnstumps]

If anyone is interested, you can google "karl martin deer impact" and download the pdf file to read. It's been mentioned in a similar thread on here. I haven't tried it myself yet, but will keep it in mind

[SwampDonkey]

I planted 3500 yellow birch seedlings from seed I collected locally (had the green house germinate them) and I planted them randomly on my woodlot. They were 12-15 inches tall, really nice trees. Within 3 months the hare and the moose had them all consumed. Every time I find a seedling I check the root collar and haven't seen one planted one yet. I planted about 250 around the back yard here and they are doing well. But, I get moose and deer once in awhile coming for a dibble. There was an area planted with heavy grass where a barn sat and the rodents got those under the snow in winter by girdling. I didn't have time to get some cages on them. Stuff gets busy in a hurry during the warm season. 

[rocksnstumps]

I'd least I don't have to worry about moose! Good point about the little critters like mice, voles, and rabbits though. Some of my trees I had tubed for a couple of years were mouse munchies last winter. This fall I stapled some window screening around the bottom couple of feet inside the bigger trees I have in tubes. Read about that tip somewhere on the web, we'll see if it makes a difference this spring.

[SwampDonkey]

Rocknstumps, that's what I use. I had to use some on apple trees when the mice were chewing the bark off in winter. I don't staple it, and I use the wire mesh and as the tree grows it doesn't consume the wire. I also cut slits in the sides up the bottom end for about 4 or 5 inches and bend up the bottom at 90 degrees so it makes a barrier out around the stump a bit. Those mice in deep snow are not chewing down at the base, a lot of the time they are further up the trunk and any buried lower limbs.

[alpmeadow]

Hi
White Pine in our area never gets to mature much in the Rockies, due to blister rust.  Often the best treatment was to prune it and leave at minimum three whorls on the younger stems and remove every limb down to ground level.  Deer never bothered the white pine when there was alot of other browse.  The aroma and smell of white pine after pruning is sure distinctive.
Cheers
alpmeadow

[Clark]

Furby - Hadn't thought about the rotting aspect of a hollow stem....looks like the rain has come to my parade!

ahlkey - You'll have to keep us posted on your findings, unless you plan on submitting them to a journal.  I'd agree with you about typical fencing strategies and finding alternatives.  It seems that most strategies have relied on bigger and better schemes of keeping deer out.  I believe that understanding what deer are uncomfortable with is a better way of keeping them out of places we don't want them.

Clark

[Furby]

Maybe, maybe not, but I would plan on spending more than what you figured and changing stakes out every couple years as needed.
Solid wood of a rot resistant species will last a lot longer I belive, so the possible higher costs of solid wood may be worth it in the long run.
Just stuff to think about.

[SwampDonkey]

Just pick a species of wood growing in your area with decent rot resistance and cut it from the woodlot or buy from a neighbor, friend, whomever. Eastern white cedar around here is pretty cheap for pasture fence posts. I wouldn't say so if I was to go buy from a box store though because they process it and handle it a zillion times. But, maybe some logger has some tops he can't use and might even let ya have.

[ahlkey]

Clark - I will try my best to keep you updated but success in keeping the deer out will be measured over years rather than months.   In Wisconsin we have lead the nation in annual deer harvest over the past decade (record yr, 2000 - 618,000) and we still had around 1.6 to 1.8 million deer estimated prior to the 2007 fall hunting season.   In reality the deer population has grown faster than our ability to harvest.  I enjoy deer hunting but when you walk the forest you can clearly see how the deer herbivory appetite for vegetation is winning big time.  So much so that our ability to practice sustainable forestry with such a large density of deer is very problematic.  To put it in simple terms for every square mile of forest (640 acres) the density is about 100 deer.   

This spring I will be doing a large planting of white pine, oak, maple, etc...right in the heart of deer country. I will try a number of innovative enclosures all under the guidelines of trying to figure out a way that a landowner can put up a fence that is both easy to install and cost effective.   It may not work but I will give it a try.  If I am successful I would love to write it up in a journal but given the success of deer so far to overcome what has been thrown at them in Wisconsin the outcome is unpredictable.  I have researched just about everything written on the subject over the past few years so I may have a better chance than most.    Time will tell.

[Clark]

ahlkey - Your plan sounds good, I'll plan on keeping an eye out for any updates, ideas, etc. 

I happened to graduate from UWSP and lived there off and on for 6 years.  I worked in forestry there for about a year doing different inventory jobs (saw some awesome hardwood stands on BCPL land and flood plain sugar maple on the Bad River Indian Reservation) and a little bit for Plum Creek.  I've seen some of the damage done by the intense grazing pressure from deer.  One of my former professors was quite adamant about reducing the deer heard drastically for 5-10 years just to give the preferred browse species a chance to regenerate.  Unfortunately it seems we can't even get the herd under control let alone reduce it drastically.

Success will have to measured over the course of years, but it seems that you have studied up on the subject so you should be well prepared. 

Clark

[ahlkey]

Well one thing I know for sure is that the old farmer expression that a good fence should be "horse high, bull strong, and pig tight" doesn't apply to deer.  I am amazed what vendors are getting per foot to keep deer out and even if it works who can afford to do it?.  If you have to pay 10 times or more than the purchase value of the seedlings is that really a successful solution?  Of course not but what if you were willing to donate your labor, it was easy to install and the materials cost you only a third of the cost of the trees you are trying to protect?  Well, for me that would be a winner but as I mentioned previously success is measured in years not months.

[Timburr]

Clark, here's a deer control notion to consider.

Certain areas of the UK have undergone successful tests with brash/slash boundaries.   When a patch of conifer plantation is clearfelled/clearcut, the last job of the fowarder is to collect up all the brash and with carefull building, windrow it into brash boundary walls about 8 to 10 feet high.   Branch ends face outwards on an almost vertical face and the inner face is sloped.  In the event of entry, the deer can easily escape up the slope......if you will, a 'one way deer valve'!   Just got to make sure the deer are not already there before it's barricaded up. 

Plots of 1 to2 acres have been relatively deer free for years, enough time for the trees to get away.   I suspect larger areas could be successful using this method, but may require periodic maintenance.

And the good thing about this system, the costs are considerably cheaper than fencing  and become part of the forest in time.