Factors involved in getting hurt in the Log Woods

[Nate Surveyor]

I went the other day, and got about 20 tons of logs. Many of them had to be winched, to make them fall the right way. They were leaning over a house, and other improvements.

Then, the next day, I got 7-8 tons of logs, in JUST 2 TREES! I had to pull these too. They were leaning JUST A LITTLE the wrong way. So, I set my winch (8,000 Warner), and pulled them down. I tied my winch line at about 20' up.

It took an ENORMOUS amount of PULL to pull these over!

What I conclude is that many of us handle DRIED wood. Standard wood from the local building supply store. And then, we decide to cut our own. And, we are fooled in our heads about how much they weigh. Based on how much the DRIED wood weighs. Like Lincoln logs. They are so light. NOT REAL LOGS!

My point is that green southern logs, that are OLD GROWTH, and FULL OF SAP are really heavy. I mean, their weight astonished me. I have learned a new respect for how they exponentially weigh more, as they get BIGGER, and if they are FULL of sap.

Entry level persons, (Such as me) who get into logging, often enter the field, with misconceptions about how much they weigh, and how dangerous a BIG green log is. I have cut firewood all my life. (well, I skipped the first few yrs!) But, pines that are full of sap are sure heavy. And there are rules that go with super heavy logs.

It has been impressed upon me (Thank God, not literally!) that there was some disparity between the THOUGHT of logging, and the DOING of it, because of their weight.

Logging is dangerous.

A big heavy log can humble you!

What I learned from a logger who watched, and loaded them for me is:

When a tree needs to be pulled, make the hinge fat, and use the pulling device to pull it over, releasing the hinge SLOWLY, steering it, and placing it right where you want it. If you wind up with lots of splinter in the stump, don't fret about it. That fat hinge keeps you safe, as you lean the tree the right direction.

I am truly an amateur logger, but I sure learned how HEAVY green Southern Yellow Pine is, Especially the ones that are old virgin growth, and full of sap. And to respect them.

On this forum, there are sure to be some with much more experience, and knowledge than I. And I am sure others can add more to this. But respecting those simple looking MONSTER trees cannot be avoided, without consequences.

Thanks,

Nate

[beenthere]

Good information to understand...

Also, getting a GOL (game of logging) course or two under the belt is what I would recommend to any newbie (and even experienced) tree cutter.

[Kevin]

It shouldn't take much to pull a tree over.
You can add mechanical advantage and/or move your hinge wood  back.
If you are experiencing a heavy pull watch out for barber chairing, maybe the hinge wood is too excessive.

[rebocardo]

> I tied my winch line at about 20' up.

Not nearly high enough unless the tree is 30 feet tall. You should try for 60%+ of tree height.

> When a tree needs to be pulled, make the hinge fat,

Hinge really should not be that much more then normal or you cause a barberchair. It is the notch that should be bigger (angle - not depth) then normal so it does not close prematurely.

> and use the pulling device to pull it over, releasing the hinge SLOWLY

Unless you have full health and life insurance never be around the tree cutting a hinge while someone is pulling with a winch. You can use the winch so it holds it from tipping back while doing the backcut so you can properly place wedges and such.

Very rarely have I needed to go back and cut a hinge further once I did all my cutting. If you do it properly the tree should be perfectly balanced on wedges and need a min. of force to pull the tree back over into its proper fall path. All I ever used was a 4x4 or 2K boat winch.

imho, Once the pulling starts to upright a tree the chainsaw guy should get out of dodge before he gets killed.

[Kevin]

I tied my winch line at about 20' up.

Not nearly high enough unless the tree is 30 feet tall. You should try for 60%+ of tree height.

Good point, I didn't see that.

[blaze83]

Hi guys,

interesting little problem concerning the height of the pull rope. according to the line pull calculater in the forum tool box here is what I found out
according to robocardo they were large trees with only a slight lean

so I used a 2 degree tree lean in the wrong direction

I calculated the weight as 10000 pounds with the tree center of gravity being at 60 feet.

the angle of the pull line in relation to the tree was 70 degrees


the force required to pull the tree was 1114 pounds


now if everything remains the same except the location of the pull rope, say we climb the tree and put the rope at 70 feet, the pull force required is 318 pounds


higher is indeed better,

gotta love the tool box


steve

[Dan_Shade]

another concern, though it might be a moot point, is that pulling below the center of gravity, if the hinge gets screwed up, and the planets are misaligned, the tree could flip over backwards.

[leweee]

  Remember wind speed & wind direction as a factor in the mix.

[Left Coast Chris]

Another thought........ is the angle of the pull.  Take caution that the cable is pulling the pull vehicle UPWARD some percentage of horrizontal angle.   If the line needs say 2000 lbs of pull at 70 degrees from the ground (meaning you are WAY too close to the tree with the pull vehicle) the upward component of the force is 1879 lbs.

At 30 degrees from the ground the tow vehicle is 34.6 feet back with the 20' high hook up........ still not far enough....... the upward force is reduced to 1000 lbs.  If you get 1.5 times the tree height back for a 80' high tree with the cable at 40' up, the upward force is reduced to 631 lbs.    You still want a good heavy tow vehicle with as flat of pull angle as possible.

I have pulled over mostly hardwoods with big crotches where the balance of the tree is more difficult to judge.  I get way back and sometimes use a cumalong to the base of another tree if there is any chance of miss judgement.   Of course with a spreading tree you can cut off branch weight on the away side of the direction of fall to get the weight going in your favor.  All fun stuff...... just do not want to leave out the upward component of the force and end up in a backward skid with a light vehicle.... the stuff nightmares are made of.     As rebocardo mentions,  the use of wedges in combination with the pull is the correct and safe way to go.

 

[Nate Surveyor]

I had a feeling that some of the things we were doing could stand improvement! (thanks, we need all the criticism we can get!)

I think the fat hinge was related to wind, and other trees, and branches interfering with the fall path. We had other trees in this case.

I have 100' of cable on my winch, and had added another 20' of chain, and 20' of some sort of strap they use to unload boats down in Port Arthur. It is one of those HEAVY straps. We were set up pulling from a long ways away.

And, our ladder was a 20' ladder. So, we probably were setting it at around 25' up.

The comment about "You should try for 60%+ of tree height." By Rebocardo was certainly good advice.

I have myself a little shopping list, for next time I have the money.

1.) 150' of Arborist rope.
2.) Arborist hand puller.
3.) Chain saw lanyard, to climb the trees with the saw.
4.) Pulley for the Bull rope.

I already have a special strap to go around trees, so that the anchor tree bark is not damaged. 

And, Please, any advice on the above items would be APPRECIATED. I have been looking at stuff from Baileys Catalog.

(Anybody that has not read and wished from a Baileys Catalog, or some sort of logging supply catalog, or Popular Mechanice, while sitting on the John, is not right with God!)

When one of those 30" or 40" SYP that is 80'+ tall hits the ground, you'd better not be too close to it!

[Dan_Shade]

get a throw bag to set the rope

[stonebroke]

Good thing you are not cutting big ugly hardwoods on steep slopes in the snow.

Stonebroke

[beenthere]

Nate
I don't see the GOL (game of logging) on your list, and think it should be number UNO !!

 

[logwalker]

 

I used my spud gun to set a rope at 70' this last fall. Every arborist should have one. Joe

[Nate Surveyor]

Been There,

I have no clue on how to go about GOL. I ain't against it, but just have no place to start.

Ideas?

And, Logwalker, how do you set a line with a spud gun?
Are we thinking about the same thing? A potato Gun? With a fishing pole & reel?
hmmm!

Good thing I don't have to make my living at logging. What I lack in common sense (I have a VERY small hole in my head where new information comes in...) I make up for by going slower, and thinking out stuff.

Anybody ever make their own throw bag?

Blue jean pant leg and sand, or No. 8 lead shot?

Nate

[Kevin]

The bag should be about 12-14oz. for hand throwing.
If you buy the bag and line it will last a long time unless you hang it up in the top of a tree. 

[Dan_Shade]

i can see lots of aggrivation coming from a shot bag made of bluejeans....

and the special cord is pretty much necessary too, using twine will make you say choice words on a frequent occasion as it gets hung up and breaks just when you had everything where you wanted it

[beenthere]

Nate
A search on this Forum will bring up previous threads about the GOL. There will likely be some training happening near you too.

Here is the home site for GOL. 
http://www.gameoflogging.com/

I've learned a lot from them,
...as well as from Kevin and Chet and other experts on this forum.

[Nate Surveyor]

Thanks Benthere.

Most of the locals have never heard of GOL!

I'd sure like a set of videos on cutting and releasing stresses, and felling awkward trees.

The video eslewhere, from some other country is cool, and helpful.

I will say that you folks were right about moving my notch BACK, to reduce pulling stress.

The tree had to go UP just a little to pull it my way. I will remember this, and try to let it fall just a little, as it falls, by making a deeper notch.

Nate

[snowman]

Just my opinion but if your not very experienced you shouldn't be cutting any tree that could hit any structure I don't care what book you read or videos you watch. Hire a pro, money well spent!

[Nate Surveyor]

 I have a bear of a time cropping, and downsizing my pics. Is there some software that does this any faster?

Here are some of our logs.

I really don't believe in taking chances, and this results in me going slow.

But, we now have a good log pile!




Big Help with the saw.

 

I hope this posts ok.

Nate

[9shooter]

On thing to mention is to blanket the winch cable.(throw a tarp over the cable somewhere in the middle, if it breaks the tarp will slow down the recoil considerably) Also, never be in line with the cable when winching. People get killed all to often when pulling on loads of unknown weight.

[rebocardo]

re:winch weight

I run the cable through the handle of a 5 gallon bucket with either wood or a chain inside. Sometimes I duct tape the handle to the cable so it does not slide with a big angle. That brings a cable down to the ground and prevents whipping if it breaks, and stops the cable quick.

> Anybody ever make their own throw bag?

I use to, more hassle then they are worth. I made throw bags out of socks and gravel. Knotted the ends, then tied twine to the end. Makes for good underhand throwing for low branches. Then I follow the string with light rope, then pull up my cable.

Then I ditched it all for real bags of various weights, arbonist twine, and a BIGSHOT sling shot.

[simonmeridew]

I use a pully block on the winch cable when I have to or want to pull a hung or leaning tree but don't care to pull it towards me or  my tractor. Fasten the pully block to another convenient tree, up high if you wish and the leverage is increased. Use a nice strong nylon sling on the helper tree. You can pull almost 180 degrees away from where your winch is if you want.
simonmeridew

[Nate Surveyor]

I have a huge pulley on order.

I'm not totally a beginner, at felling, but I am respectful!

N

[Black_Bear]

Nate,

I've had the luxury of making a living via logging and surveying. Although surveying has its minor pitfalls (especially when snakes are involved), unless you are radially locating 2 miles of 4-lane highway, I'm sure that by now you have realized that surveying is generally much safer than logging. It's such a rush when the tree hits the ground though, isn't it? 

In my experience, on a day to day basis,  it isn't the big trunk of the tree or the weight of the tree that gets you. It is the falling debris that will usually stone ya. I mean the top of the tree and the upper branches, which break off during the felling of the tree. I'm not sure how the hard pines are as far as limb and top breakage goes, but when cutting northern hardwood or softwood you want to be looking up and alert when a tree is falling. Generally you have an idea as to how and where the tree is going to land, but while the tree is falling, tops and/or branches may get broken off of the main stem and become falling missiles.

Many green cutters I have witnessed tend to watch the tree hit the ground instead of looking up. For 8 years I worked with a crew of at least 10 guys and we lived through rolled skidders and rough, steep terrain. During that same time, only 5 injury incidents occurred that involved stitches or staples and 4 of them were a result of falling debris. The other was a chainsaw cut that required stitches. Don't get me wrong, accidents happen and trees and machinery kill people while logging, but it is the often the random falling branch or broken top that will ruin your day.

I saw one hard helmet explode and the guy receive 20 some-odd staples in the pumpkin. Another guy, the 4" diameter branch caught him on the left ear muff and just about tore his ear off. The other two were minor brainers that required minimum stitches. You say your m.o. is to "think out stuff". That's not a bad thing when cutting trees.

I've also noticed your posts on the RPLS board. It sounds as though you have a nice family oriented business and you're doing something you love to do. Does it get any better?

Ed

[Nate Surveyor]

No, Black Bear, it really doesn't get any better!

I guess you could say that Surveying is my main source of $, but I had to make a choice:

Go into debt, buy a big house, and stay in Surveyorville, away from the family, or buy the mill, and build it together. That is the way we are going.

Today was our tenth wedding anniversary. We went to the river, and made a little fire, ate hot dogs and boiled eggs in a gallon can, and had a good time.

Absolutely the prettiest day yet this year!


God has really been good to us.

Nate

[Kevin]

Nice to see those trees being cut close to the ground Nate.

[thecfarm]

I thought I posted this once,but I guess I lost it.Like that picture of your son? holding the chainsaw.
I suppose you are using Xat.com for your pictures?Only way I know how to do it.

[DouginUtah]

I have a bear of a time cropping, and downsizing my pics. Is there some software that does this any faster?

Nate

I use Picasa2 from Google.

[Nate Surveyor]

Big Help is my son. 8 yrs old.

He drives the truck for me when I haul hay, he runs the Polaris 800 all over, and catches up to me, when I survey too far away. He has a 4 wheeler, and knows how to tip it over!

His given name is Isaiah Jason Dearyan.

But, he started working with me when he was 3-1/2. And I called him "Big Help" because he so loved it.

Nate

[Maineloggerkid]

I'll agree that logging is dangerous work. I'm only 17, but  I ve already seen my share of scary stuff. My freind almost died last fall. He cut himself from his ankle to his knee, all the way to the bone. He almost bled out and when they got him to the hospital, the cut was so big you could stick a kleenex box in it. THe guy that works for me part time cu t himself and needed 34 stitches once. I am inmy last 4 months of a 2 year CLP (Game Of Logging type thing) course at my highschool, and I cut wood on the side. I have about 30+ years in the logging business ahead of me and I look forward to it every day.

Its good to hear more people talk about the saftey side of things. All people at my school talk about is how easy it must be.

[Nate Surveyor]

Around here, the locals have a logging educational course.

Log too slow, you go broke.

Log too fast, you get hurt.

Log just right, and you might have to finance the wife's tupperware party!

Anyway, not much going for GOL down here.



N

[OneWithWood]

Nate, chck with the Arkansas hardwood association or loggers association if you have one.
A fellow named Joe Glenn trained me in the Indiana Cutter Training courses.  Joe is from and logs in Arkansas somewhere.  If you can find him he is a great guy and the real deal.

[Nate Surveyor]

Is this the real deal?

N

http://www.in-woods-expo.com/PR/1January2007-PR.html

[rebocardo]

>  but while the tree is falling, tops and/or branches may get broken off
>  of the main stem and become falling missiles.

Very rarely do I get to see my work, I am usually heading the other way to hide behind something big once I hear the crack or see the kerf open

One thing that has always amazed me is once the kerf opens, even if it takes a few minutes of waiting, the tree will eventually fall of its own accord and gravity will suck it down. I have literally waited five minutes for a tree to fall before the hinge starts breaking, it can feel like an hour