DIY logging – or working hard to throw money away.

[Bibbyman]

Neighbor across the valley called me late last year wanting to know if I’d buy a few walnut logs from him.  He explained he had a couple that were about to be undercut by the creek and if he didn’t get them out, they’d just be lost.

I told him we’d buy them but we didn’t have a regular market for walnut lumber and that the best thing would be to talk to the local logger we deal with. He had a market for veneer and better grade walnut logs.  He would buy logs from individuals.  If there were only a couple of logs, and you could haul them to his lot, he’d likely buy them.  If there was more, he’d send a truck out to pick them up – provided they were staged some place where they could be loaded.

Time passed and last weekend I heard the chainsaw running down on the creek, trees falling and tractors running.  Something was going on.

Yesterday we stopped in at the logger’s headquarters to settle up with him on the last load of logs he’d delivered.  In the conversation I asked him if he’d been logging on my neighbors across the valley.  He laughed and rubbed his face. (He’s kind of got the body that could play a Santa without any padding.)  He said, “He cut 5 trees and busted the three best ones.  I took them up and had to give him lumber log prices and cut back the scale on the halves.  The guy asked what the busted ones would have been worth had they not been busted.  I told him he didn’t want to know.  They’d been $5 logs.”

Like they say in the mule trading business, “education costs.”  My neighbor lost quite a bit of money by doing it himself. 

We get a lot of logs in cut by amateurs.  Some do a pretty good job, many don’t. Remarkably, some of the old farmers did the best job of cutting, bucking and preparing their logs.

[SwampDonkey]

Remarkably, some of the old farmers did the best job of cutting, bucking and preparing their logs.

Those old farmers have learned the hard way. I don't know of many old farmers here that haven't cut wood to pay the bills. In later years, that has been less common with big farm operations and the high cost of equipment. Most just sell stumpage to a logger and watch as their ground becomes a clearcut. I know a lot of young farmers in their 30's and 40's and they don't cut wood like their fathers and grandfathers did I can tell ya that.

[wannabeonetoo]

We get a lot of logs in cut by amateurs.  Some do a pretty good job, many don’t. Remarkably, some of the old farmers did the best job of cutting, bucking and preparing their logs.

[/quote]



 ???Could you explain how you like to see logs brought to you  ie. lengths,etc.
Thanks
          Steve

[Bibbyman]

Well,  start with the felling of the tree.  We see butt cut logs with spurs still attached, splinters pulled, cracked from improper notching or lack there of and buttress roots not trimmed.

Then many buck the logs up in the wrong places. i.e.,  a tree that has 20’ of logs in they’ll buck into two 10’ logs even though it should have clearly been cut into an 8’ and 12’ because of a major defect or crook.  Logs bucked to any odd length or without expected “trim”.  The buck cut is crooked or badly miss-matched and sometimes cracked.  Some logs contain just pure junk that should have been bucked off and left in the woods.

Poorly trimmed.  Some have large limbs, bumps, knots, and fork flairs still attached.

Crusted with mud and rocks.  One neighbor brought me about 50 logs that he’d drag flat on the ground up about 1/4 mile of a branch.

All these errors make the log harder to handle and process – plus often times reduces the quality and yield. Plus, I don’t like to have to take the chain saw out and correct these problems.

What I want to see are clean, fresh logs felled right with spurs trimmed, bucked to the correct length plus trim for our products, ends reasonably square, knots, bumps, limbs, root buttress swells trimmed flush to the body of the log and ready to be put into the mill.

I could also add with a minimum of handling damage.  We see a lot of logs that have been poked by forks or cut into by skidding or loading grapples. 

[WH_Conley]

How about the people that expect to be paid for a 10' log when is 9'10"?

[Quebecnewf]

reminds me of the guy who brought me logs to make cants 6x6 for a 12x12 square crib that he planned to fill with rocks as ballest for a dock .

most of his logs were 13 ft to 14 ft long. When i explained i saw by the foot and all that extra length was going to be charged on his bill even though he would have to saw it off when he built the crib , he very qiuckly got out his tape and a chain saw and made them all 12' . I got a full box of firewood out of the ends he cut off.

Quebecnewf

[thecfarm]

My Father bought a few trucks by cutting wood on The Farm.Most farmers cut wood in the summer to pay for something.Most farmers around here knew how to cut trees for the most dollar.That's a lost act now.

[Ron Scott]

Most all of my active loggers are also farmers.

[Mr Mom]

What is the best way to buck a log??
Thanks Alot Mr Mom

[Larry]

The short answer is the way that will yield the highest grade along with the most volume.  Think about how you mill a log and you won’t have any trouble bucking a tree.

Takes a little extra skill to fell walnut trees without splitting a slab off the front.  I can visualize the dollar signs in the eyes of your neighbor Bibby...and see them evaporate when he met the buyer.

[Corley5]

I farm and log just like my grandfather and his father 

[ErikC]

   Here where I live logging was the mainstay for so long almost everyone who works outside can get by taking a tree down here and there. Some of the newer folks are having a little harder time. I have had to straiten out quite a few messes like those Bibbyman talked about.
   The bigger problem that no one has mentioned is these people are putting their life on the line with some of the stunts they pull. I sawed for one guy who fell 3 20" pines with NO FACECUT . Another man fell a tree and killed his very young son (2 or 3 years old) about 10 years ago. . Talk about cost!!


Erik

[Ianab]

What is the best way to buck a log??
Thanks Alot Mr Mom

There is no one rule.

You have to look at the tree length and decide what to do taking into account the knots, forks, bends, taper etc. Then it depends on who is buying the logs and how they grade them.

It's a bit of a voodoo art 

Ian

[Ron Wenrich]

I see enough split, dirty and crooked stuff coming from full time loggers.  Can't tell them they're loosing money.

I had one farmer tell me he was going to log a particular piece that was loaded with large rocks and on a fairly steep hillside.  He was going to have it milled and build a house for his son.  I asked what type of tractor he was going to use.  One of those types with the narrow front end.  I told him to make sure his life insurance was paid up, since he was due to have some sort of accident.  I sold the timber, and he used the proceeds to build the house.

[Cedarman]

In Indiana, there are classes several times a year where they take a bunch of logs, grade them and then saw them up to show the different grades of lumber each log makes and the present market value. They also talk about tree bucking.  The trade magazines often run articles on grading and bucking logs.

The biggest mistake I see with cedar is that they wont cut out a 3 or 4' crook to get straight logs.  It costs them more to leave the crook than waste it. I would expect hardwood to be even more severe.

One of the best things I have is a 50' steel tape with the sharp nail hook at the end. We get a lot of tree length cedar in and it makes it nice to know the whole length to the inch to be able to mark for best yield.  Sometimes a few inches makes all the difference on the last log.

[BBK]

I farm and log just like my grandfather and his father 

Ditto here, our woods is a cash crop the same as soybeans and corn or wheat.

[SwampDonkey]

In Indiana, there are classes several times a year where they take a bunch of logs, grade them and then saw them up to show the different grades of lumber each log makes and the present market value. They also talk about tree bucking.  The trade magazines often run articles on grading and bucking logs.

I think it's done in a few areas. The marketing board has done it here over the years, but we never got many of the career loggers to participate, just the 20-50 cord a year guys that might find a few veneer logs while cutting their firewood. Sawlogs aren't worth the effort to a lot of people because firewood is worth more than low grade logs, which we have an abundance of.

The biggest mistake I see with cedar is that they wont cut out a 3 or 4' crook to get straight logs.  It costs them more to leave the crook than waste it. I would expect hardwood to be even more severe.

What seems to happen here is the yard is stacked with all kinds of stuff tree length from a bunch of loggers that won't buck their logs out and the marketing board goes and does the bucking for a fee. The wood is separated by a mark and scaled as it's bucked. The firewood is sold locally by the board. The volume is so low that the logistics of it doesn't pay for a log bucker to be hired on by the logger. The guys are squeezed so bad on pulp prices that volume extracted is more important to them up here than taking the time to get that 2 or 3 % of logs separated. Once in awhile you get as much as 20 % on a real good site. Those are the 'gold' up here and they have close to 40 cord per acre on them. I've only seen a couple of those sites on private land over a 15 year period.

[rebocardo]

> What is the best way to buck a log??

Make the ends square always helps. Some people get even more upset if you cut your firewood ends at an angle 

If cutting for myself (which is what I mostly did) I like to leave an extra foot on the log to account for cracking once it is dry.

When limbing, don't cut deeply into log, but, don't leave a knob sticking out that makes the log hard to turn. If you cut a collar or crotch, cut it off parallel with the line of the log.

If you have to drag it somewhere, I have found leaving another extra foot on and cutting it at a 45 degree angle so it slids over stuff really helps prevent it from submarining. That is for cheap pine and oka, I wuoldn't waste that much wood on a valuable tree.

If you are cutting a trunk that is up in the air, undercut it first, or do a small top cut and then roll it so you do not pull fiber or worse crack it.

Cut around defects more then a few inches deep. I rather have one nice 8 footer then a 12 footer with a defect at 10 feet 1/2 way through the log.

[Ron Wenrich]

The biggest mistake I see with cedar is that they wont cut out a 3 or 4' crook to get straight logs.  It costs them more to leave the crook than waste it. I would expect hardwood to be even more severe.

How a log is bucked pretty much dictates the value of the lumber coming out of the log.  So, bucking is a pretty important step.

Crooked logs are a tremendous waste of both grade and volume.  I finally asked one of the buckers why I get crooked logs.  His reply was "what else would you do with the crook?".  I told him he would make much more money by cutting it out and leaving it in the woods than to put it in the log.  He has 20+ years of experience and has been doing it that way for a long time.  He doesn't need any classes since he has experience.   

When these gems come onto the carriage, there is no way to saw for grade recovery.  On the crooked sides, you'll be pulling too much pith for it to come up much above 2 Com.  On the other sides, you will have a hard time pulling a full length board.  You can cut shorts, but more and more buyers bulk at a good number of shorts in a load.

As for crotches, I really like the log that is 16" on one end and 8" on the other with a huge crotch in the middle. 

[ID4ster]

Ron,

Its interesting to see the difference in log quality between the west coast and the east coast. Here in Idaho we have an easy system to track logs and so the mills know exactly where each load of logs comes from and which loggers manufactured them. When each load is scaled it is given a grade in terms of manufacturing quality. That list is sent each month to every logger that brought in logs that month to the mill. You can then see how your log quality stacks up against others and see how defective the logs you made were. If your quality drops below a certain point than the mill will penalize you so much per MBF or drop you completely. Back in NY when I'm logging on the home places we're selling logs to the hardwood mills and the Amishmen that manufacture the softwoods that we cut. I give each mill the same quality log that I would give a mill out here and so far have had no problem selling our logs to any of the mills or families that we deal with. I've been in the yard when our hardwood logs were scaled and graded so that I could ask questions and see what was necessary to manufacture a better log for them. We've also worked with the Amishmen to see what their preferred log lengths are and have sometimes made up certain log lengths that they need to fill an order. We get a slightly better price when we do so but also make sure that they get a log that is manufactured in such a way that they get good recovery and can cut into lumber without having to trim knots, buck snipes or cut to length. I've seen loads of logs come into the Amish mills that were just short of firewood in my opinion. Some of the loads wouldn't even be unloaded out here. The yard manager would simply tell the trucker to take the load back and come back when they were serious about delivering good logs. There are loggers and there are folks that simply muck around in the woods with skidders and such and you can generally tell who is who by the quality of the logs on their truck.

[maineframer]

I didn't Know loggers "manufactured" logs!?

[beenthere]

I didn't Know loggers "manufactured" logs!?

Yep, pretty accurate description of what they do...some better than others.

[Cedarman]

And when we get tree length logs at the mill we merchandize them.

[ID4ster]

Well loggers are supposed to manufacture logs. More money is lost at the landing by the poor bucking (manufacturing) of logs than in any other part of the operation. Too often a logger will put his most inexperienced man on the landing and expect them to trim, measure and buck the logs for the maximum scale and grade. The mill wants and expects a certain quality log for the price it pays. A log that comes into the mill yard that has a snipe on one end, pig ears along the entire length or on one side, a slant buck on the other end and an under trimmed length is going to cost more for the mill to manufacture or will lessen the amount that they can recover from the log. Crook, excessive sweep or crotches left in the log are also signs of poor manufacture and of the professionalism of the logger. The mills out here have even run classes on the importance and how to manufacture a good log. I insist on quality manufacturing from the loggers on the sales that I administer since the quality will be reflected in the price that the landowner receives for the logs. If the logger can't or won't manufacture a good quality log than he'll be off my sale forever. Its part of what they are supposed to do and if they can't do it than they should get out of the business and the way of those that can.

[Woodhog]

How to sell inferior logs:

Sell by weight as they dont pay much attention to scaling methods, usually they have laid off most of the scalers.

When bucking leave porcupine scars in the middle so the ends still look
good when they are loaded on the truck.

Pile on landing so that the trucker can put the rotted butts end up against the headboard.

If its winter try to put large pieces of ice etc in the load.

Try to get the trucker to deliver after dark when the light is bad and they are getting ready to go home for the day, or early in the morning before the main yard crew all all working.

Any logs that are cut a bit to short or have crooks try to put in the middle of the pile.

Leave a few pieces of some heavy species that they dont saw to throw up on top of the load.

Try to mix a few double top logs in with the load in the middle.

Dont trim the root swell off all your logs....

Always mix in a few undersized  on the small end logs in the middle of the load.

Be on very good terms with your trucker, preferably one who used to log or still logs
and is being paid on ton/miles....


 

[ARKANSAWYER]

  Never 'nowed any loggers to "manufacture" in these parts?  Seen a few butchers turn loggers by the way the logs are hacked up.
  They went to weight here about 8 years ago.  The mills put in scales and said measure the logs and mark each 9' 6" length on the log and leave a 10 inch top.  Then the KB loader just unloads and runs the logs through the slasher.  Faster and ther logger is paid a check when they leave the yard.  Do not have to wait for the load to be scaled and bucked for  the best cut.  They are bringing in some real crap now and mills are losing money.  I buy just better logs and scale the most part of them.  Last load was weighed and came in whole tree.  I wrote a check for $45 a ton for 28.9 ton.  I loaded up the junk when bucking off and took it to the scale up the road and it was 2.49 ton.  So I lost $112 on the load by weight.  But I scaled the load and paying the going scale rate it came to $1,617 which was $317 more then I paid for the whole load by weight plus I can sell the 2.49 ton of fire wood.  The Logger could have cleaned up the load and cut the junk out and got 3 more ton on the load and had me scale it and made more money for the effort.  So Yep! he got one over on me.

[SwampDonkey]

Because the quantities here are so small for hardwood logs, each stick is scaled and spread out to be looked at for quality. Softwood logs are sometimes scales or bought on weight here. Scalers are licensed here so there are scaling rules, most use NB log scale. Some prefer Bangor rule, better scale for the logger it seems. Some mills give choice, weight or scale rule. But, you see why most of the loggers here don't bother hardwood logs unless they are in some real good cutting, not enough log volume to cover costs. So they let the marketing board do the bucking and scaling for the best market. It has been mentioned before here, that it is hard to retain good cutters. They are about as loyal as welders, who movefrom one outfit to another on the circuit.

I don't have any troubles with my thinning crew and I end up thinning out the bad seed. The good ones stay and although I have advertized, most call me for a job through someone else. I ain't too hard on them, but I got standards and minimum production levels or it's time to find another career.